t101
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Post by t101 on Mar 14, 2009 4:10:12 GMT -5
Also, did anyone else laugh @ the contradiction of Cameron saying John has to be completely alone, yet in the first season she tells him he has many friends in the future? As smart as the writing is for this show, sometimes it can be extremely questionable and warrants criticism. That was completely by design. She lied to him to make him feel better. Later in Dungeons & Dragons we are told that John doesn't have any friends.
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terrasj
Sergeant
Rossbond Connor Crew
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Post by terrasj on Mar 14, 2009 4:23:03 GMT -5
alright guys and gals, tonight's Official SCS Episode chat event is a wrap, and can be read here: TSCC SCS 2x18 "Today Is the Day" chat March 13thLots of great views and opinions, some interesting ideas all around by RossBondReturns, Alexis, Andrew, Rift, TimStuff, me, and a few others who came in at one point, nor can I verify if they're registered in the forums or not.
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t101
Major
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Post by t101 on Mar 14, 2009 4:33:21 GMT -5
I feel bad for Jesse. She used to be cool in the future before whatever it is that turned her the way she's now.
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Post by VALIANT CHAMPION on Mar 14, 2009 9:10:27 GMT -5
Maybe Cameron's future before she was sent back John had many friends.
Once the timeline was changed and she remained with him all those years he didn't have friends. We still have the anomaly of how she knew so much about John before she went back.
This could be because Allison's memories are in Cameron.
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t101
Major
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Post by t101 on Mar 14, 2009 10:22:37 GMT -5
We still have the anomaly of how she knew so much about John before she went back. "We talk about it a lot."
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timstuff
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Scary robot? Naw...
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Post by timstuff on Mar 14, 2009 10:34:37 GMT -5
Maybe Cameron's future before she was sent back John had many friends. Once the timeline was changed and she remained with him all those years he didn't have friends. We still have the anomaly of how she knew so much about John before she went back. This could be because Allison's memories are in Cameron. I've never really bought the notion that Cameron somehow obtained all of Allison's memories. I think that she simply built a very effective profile around the information that she extracted from her. She has cold hard facts about Allison stored in her memory, but not her actual memories. We saw Cameron kill Allison, so if the Terminators had a way of scanning peoples' minds, it would have to be posthumously in Allison's case. And that would also beg the question, "why not just scan Allison in the first place, and skip all the interrogation nonsense?" That's drifting a bit off topic though, and since I don't want to get modded I'll leave it at that, and say that the Kraken sounds awesome and I wish we could get some kind of render of it.
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Post by aceplace57 on Mar 14, 2009 11:13:50 GMT -5
I'm puzzled why they included the John Henry story in this episode. It didn't seem to fit at all. Unless there's a connection between Weaver and Jesse.
I wish there had been more time spent on John finding Riley's killer. Shuffling between four stories made this episode confusing. I hope part two starts pulling all these elements together.
I watched the episode again this morning. I'm still not getting much out of it. Sarah and John's reactions are very predictable. Derek is totally out of character with his poor Riley speech. The sub and oil platform were the best scenes.
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Mar 14, 2009 11:41:59 GMT -5
Actually, I disagree.
There's a difference between not liking a someone (I nearly wrote "a character") and wanting them dead or being pleased that they're dead. In GTAT, Nablus and The Good Wound, Derek wanted John to be smart, to be focused on "the mission", to think strategically instead of panicking and calling EMT (I suspect that Derek and Sarah both looked at Riley's wounds and knew that there wasn't really any risk of her bleeding out - she cut across not down). He and Sarah wanted Riley out of John's life as much for Riley's sake as to protect John: innocent people get dead around the Connors.
As for Derek's own body count, the key word in that sentence was "innocent" - none of the people Derek's killed would have fit that definition. Added to which, he believes Cameron killed her, which adds not a little guilt to the equation - Derek is here to save people from the machines, not to let the family pet killer robot execute teenagers.
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wb5
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Post by wb5 on Mar 14, 2009 11:49:36 GMT -5
I've never really bought the notion that Cameron somehow obtained all of Allison's memories. I think that she simply built a very effective profile around the information that she extracted from her. She has cold hard facts about Allison stored in her memory, but not her actual memories. We saw Cameron kill Allison, so if the Terminators had a way of scanning peoples' minds, it would have to be posthumously in Allison's case. And that would also beg the question, "why not just scan Allison in the first place, and skip all the interrogation nonsense?" The interrogation could tell Cameron and co a lot about how Allison reacts, both physically (her expressions, voicechanges, body language in general) and emotionally. This info would be very valuable even if the Terminators can somehow extract information from her brain, right after she was killed. If Skynet does not have the means to somehow extract memories from Allison, then Cameron's capacity to imagine - really vividly - being Allison is nothing short of remarkable. In that case, Cameron actually must have loads of empathy as she can quite literally put herself in Allison's shoes. If she simply has the memories, that would be another thing. I'm a bit shocked that there is such a negative vibe around this episode on this forum, of all places. It seems to me like TSCC has little support those days; few people still seem to be enthusiastic about it even on forums like this one. I had no problems with Connor not having much - or any - friends in the future, Cameron's line from the pilot has now been contradicted many times in the series (already back in S1, as others have pointed out). So I guess that Cameron may indeed have told a little lie to make John feel better, at that point. She lies... It is a bit disconcerting though to hear that Cameron seems to want John to be alone. Then again, in this very same episode she tells him he should not be alone (while he stalks off to the morgue). It's almost like Cameron can't make her mind up either. Her Terminator nature may tell her that John being alone and not connected to anyone is safer, her "feelings" (assuming she has something like that, but it does seem likely) tell her differently. I though it was an excellent episode. I liked it that they even connected to what happened in "Self made man", as Sarah clearly noticed Cameron is sneaking out at night (the cuts and bruises she mentioned likely were from her fight with Stark). I was surprised that Sarah had such a frank talk with Cameron; it's been a while since they really talked to one another. I also liked it that John kept defending Cameron, even as he was clearly moved by Riley's dead. I think the contrast between John defending Cameron towards others and being very sceptical to Cameron herself at the same time, is not unbelievable at all. It's not unheard of for people to defend someone they love with determination against outsiders, only to then be angry with said loved one in private. With regards to Cameron, John is conflicted between him caring for her on the one hand, and the obvious manipulation of him by her on the other hand. I don't think he ever really forgave her attempt to sway him with the "I love you John!" in Samson & Delilah. His heart may want it to have been true and meant when she said it, his head must scream she was obviously lying as she was trying to kill him 15 seconds earlier, and only trying to get out of a bad situation for her. I suspect John examinded Riley's wounds closely enough to realise Riley fought a human before she was shot. Cameron was super creepy in her conversation with John, while posing as Riley. I wonder the same thing as John: what the hell was she trying to accomplish there? Surely she didn't think John would like her imitating Riley's voice to himself? The "Jimmy Carter" wasn't chosen at random as the sub; it has special equipment to be able to unload special forces, so it could do more or less clandestine operations in the same vein as what happened in the episode. The rubber-skin Terminator was creepy, and apparently even non-skinned Terminators have been captured by the resistance (if they, indeed, do work for the resistance, which remains to be seen). Derek seemed to immediately suspect Jesse. I wonder if he still does suspect her, in spite of what he said "the cyborg killed an innocent girl in cold blood". Regarding what Derek said about Riley; he was angry John had taken a risk (of exposing his identity and draw attention, which he ended up doing with the social worker showing up at their door) by bringing Riley to a hospital. I suppose that he didn't mean he should just have left her to bleed to death, though. He may have expected John and/or Cameron to have sufficient knowledge to stop the bleeding themselves, and arrange for a blood donor if necessary. Derek never wished Riley would die, I think.
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Post by VALIANT CHAMPION on Mar 14, 2009 12:25:25 GMT -5
When Derek said that an innocent girl was killed in cold blood in my opinion it was a shocked response to Jesse's cold hearted statement about her death doing some good if it can get John away from Cameron.
I did watch the episode again. The box is obviously smaller than I had originally estimated. If something in the box is animate it could be a liquid terminator or it could be a petite terminator in a fetal position. Something unusual as well is that the way the box is sealed and with its own power source. There could be a controlled atmosphere in the box. Which suggest preserving tissue by refrigeration or keeping something warm. Although this could all be highly presumptious and looking too far into what the box is.
On Allison it could be that after they failed at extracting as much information as they wanted they killed her and harvested her cerebral cortex and in some way converted the memories in a digital format.
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Post by allergygal on Mar 14, 2009 13:39:03 GMT -5
As for Derek's own body count, the key word in that sentence was "innocent" - none of the people Derek's killed would have fit that definition. Added to which, he believes Cameron killed her, which adds not a little guilt to the equation - Derek is here to save people from the machines, not to let the family pet killer robot execute teenagers. Derek used a little girl as a pawn in a gunfight and he would've killed two disarmed security guards under city hall if Sarah hadn't stopped him. We've never seen Derek show any concern over innocents. Add to that the fact that he'd already scolded John for calling paramedics when Riley tried to take her own life and told Sarah that he thought Riley was "a problem". I wouldn't have expected Derek to high-five anyone about Riley being dead, but I think he would have been secretly relieved about it.
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schmacky
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Post by schmacky on Mar 14, 2009 13:50:11 GMT -5
As for Derek's own body count, the key word in that sentence was "innocent" - none of the people Derek's killed would have fit that definition. Added to which, he believes Cameron killed her, which adds not a little guilt to the equation - Derek is here to save people from the machines, not to let the family pet killer robot execute teenagers. Derek used a little girl as a pawn in a gunfight and he would've killed two disarmed security guards under city hall if Sarah hadn't stopped him. We've never seen Derek show any concern over innocents. Add to that the fact that he'd already scolded John for calling paramedics when Riley tried to take her own life and told Sarah that he thought Riley was "a problem". I wouldn't have expected Derek to high-five anyone about Riley being dead, but I think he would have been secretly relieved about it. I think with Derek it's more about the fact that metal killed her. It doesn't matter if he thought she was a problem or that he may have killed her himself. If metal killed the girl then that's like every other human in Derek's past that died from metal... all humans are innocent when killed at the hands of metal. With Sarah, I think she was sad about hearing Riley was dead. Maybe part of her relieved too but her eyes were too darn watery and made me think she quasi cared about the girl. What she said to "Ms Wilson" about Riley "I've sort of taken a liking to her" or whatever.. I think part of her meant it. If her son wasn't being chased by killer robots and they lead a normal life I think she would have liked Riley. But she knew that Riley being there only put everyone in danger. And even though she thought about it for a moment in killing Riley herself, I think she was visibly affected by the death of Riley. Some people have said how both Sarah and Derek's reaction to the news of Riley has been out of character or whatever... with both of them, while watching it the first time I didn't even think twice about their reactions... it really did fit for me.
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Mar 14, 2009 13:57:22 GMT -5
Derek used a little girl as a pawn in a gunfight and he would've killed two disarmed security guards under city hall if Sarah hadn't stopped him. We've never seen Derek show any concern over innocents. Add to that the fact that he'd already scolded John for calling paramedics when Riley tried to take her own life and told Sarah that he thought Riley was "a problem". I wouldn't have expected Derek to high-five anyone about Riley being dead, but I think he would have been secretly relieved about it. The little girl is a red herring because Derek was in control (or so he thought) and he knew he wasn't going to hurt her. At the same time, John Connor's safety trumps baseline morality for both Derek and Sarah. What they'll do to protect John doesn't reflect how they feel about the right and wrong of killing. Also, Riley dead is more of a problem for the Connors than Riley alive. I don't think Derek's in the least bit relieved. And as I said before, John calling the paramedics was a stupid, panicked response. Dude, the Connors don't go to the ER for sucking chest wounds and gunshots - calling EMT because Riley had a Sylvia Plath moment in the bathroom was freaking dumb and John should have known better. Ditto, Schmacky. As in the Good Wound, where she tells Dr. Felicia about her "abuser", there's a lot of truth in the lies Sarah Connor tells. I never thought she had anything personal against Riley but she knew, for the girl's sake as well as John's safety, that John getting involved with her was a bad idea. She ever tells John in "Mr. Ferguson" that if he cares about Riley, he should stop seeing her. Given Sarah's own experiences with Kyle and Charley and Michelle, she knows exactly how it feels to have a that kind of guilt on your conscience and she wants to protect John from it. There's a measure of sadness for Riley but some as well for John. The only difference between Sarah and everyone else with regards to Riley is that when Sarah thinks "I could kill that kid" in "Ourselves Alone", she's got a gun in her hands and the will to use it. And that is why she puts it down and unloads it. Because anger & firearms lead to actions you later regret with a clear head. edit the third - I've always loved that the characters on TSCC aren't static. Sarah, John, Derek and Cameron are all evolving and growing. In fact, any character that does not seem to grow and learn with each episode tends to either be a bad machine (Weaver) or on the wrong path (Ellison, Jesse) - as an aside, that says interesting things about what, ultimately, is going to happen with John Henry, eh? Derek came back in time traumatized by losing Kyle again - *again* being the key word here - and buy coming out of a war zone into contemporary LA. Derek wasn't exactly functioning on a full bag of marbles and I didn't like him very much. But the time he's spent with Sarah and John and, as much as it kills me, Jesse, has softened some of the pain of losing Kyle, of growing up in the future. That he's signed onto Sarah's 3-dot investigation is a sign that Derek's thinking that there are better ways of stopping Skynet than killing computer geeks. I wouldn't have expected Derek of "What He Beheld" to give a crap if John's whole school exploded so long as he wasn't in it. As far as Derek was concerned, they were all dead anyway if Judgement Day isn't stopped. But like Sarah, who goes from trying to kill Dyson to genuinely mourning his death, he's relearning the value of human life, trying to be again the good person he once was.
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t101
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Post by t101 on Mar 14, 2009 14:23:33 GMT -5
The only difference between Sarah and everyone else with regards to Riley is that when Sarah thinks "I could kill that kid" in "Ourselves Alone", she's got a gun in her hands and the will to use it. And that is why she puts it down and unloads it. Because anger & firearms lead to actions you later regret with a clear head. It's not a matter of whether John knows better, not a matter of intelligence. It's John's emotional inability to make those choices. Cameron seems to understand that he will have to learn to keep an emotional distance or he may not be able to realize his potential as a military commander. It seems this "flaw" stays with him in the future, hence why he only keeps one relationship and that with a machine.
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Mar 14, 2009 14:32:38 GMT -5
The only difference between Sarah and everyone else with regards to Riley is that when Sarah thinks "I could kill that kid" in "Ourselves Alone", she's got a gun in her hands and the will to use it. And that is why she puts it down and unloads it. Because anger & firearms lead to actions you later regret with a clear head. It's not a matter of whether John knows better, not a matter of intelligence. It's John's emotional inability to make those choices. Cameron seems to understand that he will have to learn to keep an emotional distance or he may not be able to realize his potential as a military commander. It seems this "flaw" stays with him in the future, hence why he only keeps one relationship and that with a machine. I don't see what the section you quoted has to do with John and Cameron. We're never going to see eye to eye on military commanders but "emotional distance" is not what inspires people to risk their lives for their comrades and you're never going to convince me otherwise and, as I've said before, history is weighted heavily against that argument. The ability to stay calm and give orders in crisis is not the same as emotional distance. A soldier doesn't want the person ordering the into harm to be a hysteric but nothing kills morale faster than the idea that the commanding officer doesn't give a crap about the soldiers being ordered into combat. QED John's emotional distance is not only not winning the war in the future, it's sent Jesse into the past to ensure that John Connor never trusts a machine again.
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