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Post by littleb on Dec 15, 2008 12:20:12 GMT -5
Just going to jump OT. Mods, please shove into new thread if appropriate! I'm not a "fan" of anything or anybody, no matter how much I may like any particular thing. To me, a "fan" is someone who accepts everything uncritically. I prefer to see things get better, not worse or stay the same - although I'll take the latter if worse is the only alternative. You use "fan" as if it's a dirty word. In my experience of fandom, fans are probably the most critical viewers of their particular show. Because fans have so much invested in a show, because they love it and care about the characters in it, they want it to be good and are usually the first to pick up on the inconsistencies, the slips and the dips in quality. We try and offer explanations for things that don't add up, we write fic to fill in the gaps and take the characters to places that the show can't. Casual viewers aren't likely to sit and worry about dates and continuity errors, the fact that terminators occasionally can't aim straight and the fact that the Connors aren't too logical in their saving the world efforts, I know my partner certainly doesn't. She watches the show, she kinda likes it but she won't think about it after an episode has aired. Try finding Textual Poachers by Henry Jenkins, it's a fabulous read and he understands TV fandom absolutely bang on. I wholeheartedly would describe myself as a fan but that doesn't mean I sit and watch with my brain turned off, it's actually just the opposite. No offense, but I don't want to see your show. I like the one that's on at the moment, for all its flaws (and I can see them too) and all it's holes. I have a bit of faith that the writers have a plan, they've already shown they have a damn good handle on their characters and they aren't shy to pull surprises out of the bag. It must be difficult to try and write for a show that's pretty much on the bubble in terms of a third season, to try and decide whether to cram things in or write for a longer arc. I think they do listen, they're certainly reading the forums and the Wiki etc but at the end of the day, they're the ones writing the episodes. They're not perfect or infallible, I can't think of a show that's consistently given excellent episodes without the odd dip but there's not been an episode to date that I've hated or that I'd call an absolute dud. Gonna have to disagree with you there. Without decent characters you could write the most intricate plot in the world and I wouldn't tune in the week after. I think you can get away with it in a one-off movie, but in a TV show, there's got to be something, someone you care about to keep you coming back week after week. I don't think it's an accident that the films that have sequels tend to be the ones with characters people are drawn to. TSCC has taken characters the movie audience cared about and made them its own. It's done an excellent job with an incredibly difficult task - it took real balls to take such iconic characters as Sarah and John Connor, recast them successfully with actors that IMHO now own the roles and write for them so well. You usually need a balance of the two but where a character-centric, bottle ep (i.e. a nice, budget saving piece like The Tower is...) can exist and succeed in isolation, often with the barest of plots, I don't think you can have a plot that succeeds without characters. The Terminator franchise has a great premise, it has a great plot as its frame but I think it came back and it grew bigger because at the heart of it it's got a fractured family, a broken love story and characters people actually wanted to see more of.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Dec 15, 2008 22:04:06 GMT -5
Again, I don't say characterization is not important. It's just not sufficient if you're not moving a plot along. You can't run a whole season on characterization.
And I don't blame all "fans". I agree that fans can be critical. But the stereotypical fan isn't. It depends on how inclusive you want the word to be. Since I tend to be critical, I tend to go up against fans who aren't. Does that make me not a fan? Or not enough of a fan? The problems is that fans who don't see the problems end up being disappointed when their artist or show or whatever doesn't do as well as they'd hoped. I prefer to stay aware of the situation and thus not be surprised when things don't go well.
So if you like Terminator the way it is now - and I'm not saying I don't, not at all - don't be surprised if the writers and producers really do screw up and the show goes off the air. The TV business is extremely competitive, especially on Fox. If you're not in the top ten, you're gone sooner or later.
I really don't want to see this show go away, because it could be so much better than it is, and if it was, it would be drawing ten million viewers instead of five.
If you want to be on the side of the show that draws five million, fine. But don't be surprised if this is the last season.
If we're lucky, just moving it to Friday and pairing it with a new Joss Whedon vehicle might be enough to gain it another two or three million viewers and allow it to survive into a third season without any other changes. But I wouldn't count on that.
And I want the show to go to four and five seasons. If things aren't improved, I just can't see that happening.
I do agree that the writers and producers have done well in many episodes, and produced some significant surprises. I never saw the Riley run by Jesse bit coming and that was a wonderful switch. If they can keep that stuff up, the show will get better.
I assume that the writers and producers are learning as they go, like everyone else, what works and what doesn't. For instance, I hope they realize that there were too many stand-alone episodes this season and too many Terminators. If they learn from that, season three might be much better than season two.
Again, the bottom line for a show like this is intensity and momentum. They have to keep both those elements up to retain viewers. And both plot and characterization are critical to doing that.
As for the comment on the scene where Lauren is sent to her room, I agree that wasn't smart, but the writers obviously did it to set up the scene where Cameron disarms the father without blasting him with the shotgun. That was very neat. They could have set it up better, but I forgive them for that one. It might have been even more fun had they had Cameron shot by the father (accidentally or otherwise) without harm, thus establishing for the Fields that things are a lot different than they think.
The three hundred foot Cameron throw through the window, however, was just bad.
That was also one slow moving Terminator. He had five minutes or more to get from his Cameron throw to the front door. If I were Skynet, I'd fire a Terminator who moved that slow when his target is in sight. Does he LIKE chasing people through the woods and getting run over by a car in the process? So why let them run?
They could have had him reach the door quicker, then have Cameron recover quicker than she did, and continue the fight in the cabin while the Fields and Sarah fled. Then he could have knocked Cameron out again (we don't even know HOW he knocked her out the first time since Terminators basically don't shut down unless electrocuted and generally only stay down for a matter of seconds otherwise) and chased after them, giving Cameron the time to secure Lauren and get the car. Same result, more interesting, more action, more for Cameron to do than just lie there zonked. The whole "Cameron stomps Roger" bit would have been less interesting than this scenario.
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rbnn
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Post by rbnn on Dec 21, 2008 21:49:37 GMT -5
Does anyone think they should have let the terminator win this time?
Sydney didn't seem all that critical, and the Fields were amazingly dim, except for Lauren. Also, the terminators have been losing too much lately. Let them win a battle you know?
And it would have tied up the loose end of what to do with Lauren at the end of the episode. The idea of her raising Sydney alone at the end is not too realistic.
I just think it would have been crisper, clearer, more interesting, and more credible had Sarah failed this week. Lauren dies, no Sydney.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Dec 21, 2008 23:01:18 GMT -5
Well, in one sense, with all these digressions, basically Skynet has been winning all season. The Connors have ignored "The Turk" and been ignorant of Weaver, allowing Weaver to materially advance the creation of Skynet.
As for letting a specific Terminator win once, yeah, that would be interesting. The problem would be what to do with the Terminator once he'd won. Either the Connors would have to put him down anyway, or he'd be wandering around looking for John.
And since Cromartie is out of the picture at that task, Skynet really does need another Terminator in the present who is explicitly looking for John. So maybe the show should do that - let a Terminator win, then shift to his secondary objective of tracking John Connor - which would be easier for him since he's already beaten the Connors once and has an idea that they're around.
This again relates to the fact that the writers have been ignoring the probability that Skynet would do follow up moves in the past once one move has failed. There's no reason at all for Skynet to "accept defeat" given the nature of time travel.
While there is a good reason for the writers ignoring this - namely, that the show would end up running all over the place repetitively which would be uninteresting to the viewers - the issue should be addressed at least once to satisfy the criticism and show that the writers are aware of the issue.
On the other hand, in "Automatic for the People", Skynet did just that - maybe. Weaver initiated the Automite project to gain control of the nuclear power plant after Skynet's Terminator failed to destroy the plant. Or perhaps it was expected that the attempt would fail and thus enable Skynet to gain control of the plant. Either way, we can't tell if that was the original plan or if the Automite project was a "follow-up" plan. What we DO know is that the Connors failed to follow up on the nuclear plant incident.
And in this episode, the problem again was Sarah Connor letting the Fields Terminator run loose for six months. This was simply inconsistent with her intent to protect both Martin Bedells by insuring that the Terminator in that case was destroyed. No amount of excuses really explains her actions in this case. It was a badly conceived episode with a ton of plot holes.
The only useful thing this episode did was provide some back story on Jesse and set up a future episode with the nuclear sub.
I vote this episode for worst of the season. It was still worth watching, it just wasn't up to par.
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Post by conium on Dec 22, 2008 0:50:04 GMT -5
And it would have tied up the loose end of what to do with Lauren at the end of the episode. The idea of her raising Sydney alone at the end is not too realistic. In the future we know that Lauren and her sister survive. So I don't really see any loose ends. The only thing we don't know is "how". Some people would like Lauren to return, other people say that her story is complete. But she and Sydney, just like John, will make it. Had the terminator won, then this would have been the worst episode, but after re-watching it it has become my favorite. These days there are many young women who have children and take care of them, some younger than Lauren. It's not impossible. Lauren seems like the kind of person who would do it, or die trying. But I do hope we see her again. Samantha Krutzfeldt will appear in the tv show "Ghost Whisperer" in February. I hope she will consider returning and the writers will consider a part for her. But Cameron crashing into the house was bad. At least let them punch a large propane tank, the kind that some rural houses use for heating. The blast should be enough to separate the two terminators. Otherwise the best explanation can be found here: www.roxybisquaint.com/tsccomicals/2x12/panel8.jpg. Thank you allergygal.
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Post by hzhp800 on Dec 22, 2008 7:05:48 GMT -5
But Cameron crashing into the house was bad. At least let them punch a large propane tank, the kind that some rural houses use for heating. The blast should be enough to separate the two terminators. Otherwise the best explanation can be found here: www.roxybisquaint.com/tsccomicals/2x12/panel8.jpg. Thank you allergygal. Ha! While that explanation was funny I still think my Fight Club homage works best. It works like this: Due to a glitch in her chip, during the fight with the terminator, the process responsible for anticipating her opponent's moves malfunctioned and mistakenly routed its predictions into her locomotive systems resulting in her enactment of the anticipated attacks. The result: Cameron begins to repeatedly punch herself in the face and knocks herself down the hill. The other Terminator stops cold, bewildered and utterly confused. Meanwhile, Cameron rolls down toward the house believing herself to be in the throes of a hard fought terminator battle. All of this unbeknownst to the people in the house as they are distracted by the shouting match involving the neighbor. Finally, Cameron emerges only to realize that her imaginary opponent has grabbed her, she does a quick double take toward the window while realizing that this is where her opponent was planning to throw her. While hurling herself toward the window, in midair, she runs a diagnostic as she wondered how the triple eight had managed to completely outmaneuver and outwit her. It seemed well beyond its known capabilities. She then discovers in horror what had happened and shuts herself down for a more extensive diagnostic... fearing that in this condition she would be a danger to herself and her charges. Hence, the LONG reboot. The other terminator finally decides to slowly and cautiously approach the house from afar, he is still weirded out by what he just witnessed. He almost hopes that it will turn out to be some sort of trap since that would be preferable than the thought that a terminator could suddenly go berzerk on itself, jeopardizing its mission without even knowing it. Hence, his incredibly slow approach to the house after the window incident. So you see, what looked like a poorly planned scene was actually a subtle and incredible homage to Edward Norton's brilliant turn in Fight Club. For all we know this could become obvious in an extended/deleted scene included on the DVD.
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Post by marblator on Feb 20, 2009 3:45:46 GMT -5
I just caught this episode yesterday. (I live in England.) Great episode.! Hmm... interesting episode. It was different but, I liked it. I liked how all the different stories connected in the end. Kind of reminds me of "Mr. Ferguson Is Ill Today"- I enjoy the multiple storyline episodes, Me too I thought that was really stupid. One moment she's telling them to be quiet then smashing walls in with an axe then BOOM! with the shotgun. "Over here termie, termie! Nice juicy future freedom fighters! Come and get them!" I'm also not clear why they left one girl behind in the wardrobe. Although they knew the father wasn't the target by then, they didn't know the mother was, surely? It could have been her or the daughter. Even if it wasn't her, the T-888 could have killed her then adapted her voice in case her mother called (like she did.) I've noticed these T-888s tend to be a bit less bloodthirsty than their predecessors though only really killing targets or those they need to... and anyone who fires on them. (OK not people they need to, but I'm sure you know what I mean.) Makes sense they'd be more careful though. Makes them better infiltrators. Anyhow, I loved the story threads wrapped up. Interesting and thought provoking. It's a small thing, but I also kind of liked it that the T-888 actually beat Cameron. Not because I dislike the character (far from it. I think she's great!) but it just shows all those who think she's taking out the enemies too easily that this just isn't the case. In fact I don't think she ever did kill them easily. The only times I've seen her kill a T-888 all by herself was the girl who came for the psychiatrist (to kill or protect... I wonder if we'll ever find out?) and the 1920s guy from episode 2x11. Every other time she had help. In fact for a while I thought they were besting her too much. I'm enjoying this series. And I don't get many of he negative points I've read concerning it having too many stand alone stories, or that fast-become-cliche 'Terminator of the week' (another thing prone to exaggeration.) If stand-alone stories with a specific terminator are as good as this, what's the problem? As long as it's not all the time of course, ongoing storys are good too.
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Feb 21, 2009 15:38:48 GMT -5
I'm also not clear why they left one girl behind in the wardrobe. Although they knew the father wasn't the target by then, they didn't know the mother was, surely? It could have been her or the daughter. Even if it wasn't her, the T-888 could have killed her then adapted her voice in case her mother called (like she did.) My take was that Sarah went on instinct - 'whu? you're pregnant? right. that's why the metal's coming for you here and now.' It was a calculated risk but I can accept Sarah figuring that she can protect one person in the woods but not two.
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Post by allergygal on Jan 25, 2010 5:55:04 GMT -5
I haven't watched this episode from start to finish in a while and I'd forgotten about future!Lauren looking the same age as present day Lauren. I skimmed through this thread and didn't see it addressed, but I know we must've talked about that. Were they just too lazy to age her for the future scenes or was that supposed to mean Lauren was going to ditch her baby sister soon and jump to 2027 somehow?
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figaruna
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Post by figaruna on Jan 27, 2010 1:34:03 GMT -5
I haven't watched this episode from start to finish in a while and I'd forgotten about future!Lauren looking the same age as present day Lauren. I skimmed through this thread and didn't see it addressed, but I know we must've talked about that. Were they just too lazy to age her for the future scenes or was that supposed to mean Lauren was going to ditch her baby sister soon and jump to 2027 somehow? Agh. I'm gonna call laziness because having Lauren jump would be Time Machine Overload for me!
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Post by allergygal on Jan 27, 2010 15:14:49 GMT -5
Agh. I'm gonna call laziness because having Lauren jump would be Time Machine Overload for me! I guess they figured if they stuck some darker lipstick on her and put her in a bio suit we wouldn't notice that she looked exactly the same age? And she clearly did look the same because even Derek easily recognizes young!Lauren from his brief encounter with old!?Lauren in the future while he was on the verge of death with fever.
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Post by littleb on Feb 1, 2010 14:11:46 GMT -5
Agh. I'm gonna call laziness because having Lauren jump would be Time Machine Overload for me! guess they figured if they stuck some darker lipstick on her and put her in a bio suit we wouldn't notice that she looked exactly the same age? And she clearly did look the same because even Derek easily recognizes young!Lauren from his brief encounter with old!?Lauren in the future while he was on the verge of death with fever. Add another one to the Convenience/lazy theory. I think they had to make sure that Derek - even in a fever-addled state - would recognise Lauren so they didn't try too hard (or at all) to age her. I never really thought about it, but yeah, she should've had nineteen or so years on her! Hell, maybe surviving a nuclear apocalpyse works as a really good facial skin peel and you're subsequently impervious to the aging process...
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figaruna
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Post by figaruna on Feb 1, 2010 21:47:08 GMT -5
I never really thought about it, but yeah, she should've had nineteen or so years on her! Hell, maybe surviving a nuclear apocalpyse works as a really good facial skin peel and you're subsequently impervious to the aging process...
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Post by littleb on Feb 2, 2010 6:46:22 GMT -5
I never really thought about it, but yeah, she should've had nineteen or so years on her! Hell, maybe surviving a nuclear apocalpyse works as a really good facial skin peel and you're subsequently impervious to the aging process... And it's finally official: I can fanw*nk anything ;D
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