k8ie
Corporal
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Post by k8ie on Nov 17, 2008 23:55:56 GMT -5
Well, if it's the one I'm thinking of from the sides, 2x13 was the production number, Cy.
Thanks for the heads-up, Turk.
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Post by driftlight23 on Nov 18, 2008 3:09:55 GMT -5
I spotted what looked appeared to be three white Go pieces in the triangular pattern of Sarah's dream and a Go board in the promo for this ep. The question arises of whether the true nature of the game being played between Skynet and John is Chess or Go... Go is about controlling territory on the board, and is an ostensibly simple to learn but strategically very complex game. The Wikipedia article on Go is very interesting to read in this light. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(board_game)Go poses a daunting challenge to computer programmers. While the strongest computer chess hardware has defeated top players (for example, the IBM computer Deep Blue beat Garry Kasparov, the then-world champion in 1997), the best Go programs only manage to reach an intermediate amateur level. On the small 9×9 board, the computer fares better, and some programs have reached a strong amateur level. Human players generally achieve an intermediate amateur level by studying and playing regularly for a few years. Many in the field of artificial intelligence consider Go to require more elements that mimic human thought than chess.Also this part on strategy: Strategy deals with global influence, interaction between distant stones, keeping the whole board in mind during local fights, and other issues that involve the overall game. It is therefore possible to allow a tactical loss when it confers a strategic advantage.
Go is not easy to play well. With each new level (rank) comes a deeper appreciation for the subtlety and nuances involved and for the insight of stronger players. The acquisition of major concepts of the game comes slowly. Novices often start by randomly placing stones on the board, as if it were a game of chance; they inevitably lose to experienced players who know how to create effective formations. An understanding of how stones connect for greater power develops, and then a few basic common opening sequences may be understood. Learning the ways of life and death helps in a fundamental way to develop one's strategic understanding of weak groups. It is necessary to play some thousands of games before one can get close to one's ultimate potential Go skill. A player who both plays aggressively and can handle adversity is said to display kiai, or fighting spirit, in the game.
Familiarity with the board shows first the tactical importance of the edges, and then the efficiency of developing in the corners first, then sides, then center. The more advanced beginner understands that territory and influence are somewhat interchangeable—but there needs to be a balance. This intricate struggle of power and control makes the game highly dynamic.Fascinating to look at what's happened this season with this in mind. I still have a sense of Future!John playing a much larger game than anyone suspects. I hope so, anyway. However, the same might be said of Skynet. You would need a computer that 'crossed against the light' to play Go well, I think.
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Post by chrisimo on Nov 18, 2008 3:38:27 GMT -5
You would need a computer that 'crossed against the light' to play Go well, I think. A supercomputer just recently beat a professional Go player at a 9x9 match. More here
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t101
Major
Posts: 716
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Post by t101 on Nov 18, 2008 6:28:02 GMT -5
In the preview Jesse says, "I'm here to stop her, I'm here to save him." Cameron?
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Post by chrisimo on Nov 18, 2008 11:20:41 GMT -5
In the preview Jesse says, "I'm here to stop her, I'm here to save him." Cameron? Possibly. She doesn't like John trusting the machines too much, so it would make sense.
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k8ie
Corporal
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Post by k8ie on Nov 18, 2008 12:24:51 GMT -5
My current whacked out theory is that Jesse's in the past to stop Sarah Connor from getting Derek killed or possibly killing Derek.
It occurred to me last night that Jesse and Derek don't use pronouns in their conversation in the hotel room - they refer to Connor and we all assume that she's talking about John. But she could as easily be referring to Sarah... or even a Cameron Connor - assuming she figures out that whole tortoise thing for herself.
Assuming that Jesse really does come from a timeline that was created when John and Sarah travelled forward in time and Derek shot Andy Goode in the head, then Jesse comes from a future where John, Sarah and Cameron failed to stop Judgement Day - who knows what happened up that stream of time.
Of course, Jesse's presence in the past changes all that (thank you, Heisenberger) but, potentially, she could be talking about either Sarah or Cameron.
I think it'd be really cool if Jesse's target was actually Sarah rather than Cam, however unlikely I think that may be.
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t101
Major
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Post by t101 on Nov 18, 2008 12:53:13 GMT -5
I'm assuming she's speaking to Derek so she can't mean saving him. Who else could she possibly be saying this to?
Another theory is that she wants to save someone we don't yet know about who dies in the future because of something someone does now.
That would be a rather nice irony. That she's after Sarah because of something Sarah might do and not because of something the machine may do -- whom everyone suspects anyway all the time.
One thing I don't want to see is evil!Cameron, or skynet!Cameron. Questionable Cameron yes please. But I don't want to see her destined to be a villain.
I have a feeling Derek will end up killing Jesse himself in a heartbreaking scene. I don't see how he'd ever tolerate someone else doing it. And, yeah, I think she'll die eventually.
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k8ie
Corporal
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Post by k8ie on Nov 18, 2008 13:07:03 GMT -5
I'm assuming she's speaking to Derek so she can't mean saving him. Who else could she possibly be saying this to? Good point. For some reason, I just didn't feel like it was Derek Jesse was speaking with in that scene. Couldn't tell you why. Allergygal is convinced Jesse's been sent back to save John from Cameron's ebil influence, which is a far more reasonable guess. I'm just tired of Ebil Cameron and Future!John's theorized technophilia. Ick on many, many levels.
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Post by allergygal on Nov 18, 2008 15:37:52 GMT -5
In broad strokes, "Complications," "One-Two Point," and "Earthlings Welcome Here" are very tightly linked together, storywise, while "Self Made Man" and "Alpine Fields" are less so. So it's easier to move the latter two episodes around, and there are certain things in "Self Made Man" which make more sense when they play after "One Two Point" instead of before. You'll know them when you see them... Uh.... We had "the greys" in Complications and then "Earthlings Welcome Here" coming up? You're worrying me with these alien references. -- Preview for this epIn looking through the promo, there's a terminator view that shows "Current Date: 09.10.1999". So I guess this the episode where a terminator lands in the wrong time. And since it thinks it's 1999, it would logically be after John.
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Post by chinova on Nov 18, 2008 18:24:15 GMT -5
I'm assuming she's speaking to Derek so she can't mean saving him. Who else could she possibly be saying this to? Good point. For some reason, I just didn't feel like it was Derek Jesse was speaking with in that scene. Couldn't tell you why. The way the promo was cut, it looked like maybe Jesse could be speaking to Cameron or Sarah.
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timstuff
Private
Scary robot? Naw...
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Post by timstuff on Nov 18, 2008 19:28:50 GMT -5
I think Jessie doesn't trust Cameron, and thinks it's her fault that John views machines through a humane lens. Jessie obviously hates Terminators, and thinks John has poor judgment for keeping so many "metals" around-- and especially so with Cameron, I'd imagine. In Jessie's mind, I think that she believes Cameron has taken John to "the dark side," and that to "save" John, Cameron must be eliminated. She clearly is not operating on the same agenda as Cameron and the Connors.
Also, I'm guessing that they changed the episode order, because Fox realized that seeing Summer Glau in that outfit is good November Sweeps material. ^_^
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Post by santana on Nov 18, 2008 20:17:20 GMT -5
In broad strokes, "Complications," "One-Two Point," and "Earthlings Welcome Here" are very tightly linked together, storywise, while "Self Made Man" and "Alpine Fields" are less so. So it's easier to move the latter two episodes around, and there are certain things in "Self Made Man" which make more sense when they play after "One Two Point" instead of before. You'll know them when you see them... Uh.... We had "the greys" in Complications and then "Earthlings Welcome Here" coming up? You're worrying me with these alien references. -- Preview for this epIn looking through the promo, there's a terminator view that shows "Current Date: 09.10.1999". So I guess this the episode where a terminator lands in the wrong time. And since it thinks it's 1999, it would logically be after John. If you look at the HUD, it looks like the school parking lot where Cromartie first tried to kill John.
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Post by allergygal on Nov 18, 2008 21:13:09 GMT -5
In looking through the promo, there's a terminator view that shows "Current Date: 09.10.1999". So I guess this the episode where a terminator lands in the wrong time. And since it thinks it's 1999, it would logically be after John. If you look at the HUD, it looks like the school parking lot where Cromartie first tried to kill John. I rechecked it and actually it's not a terminator HUD afterall. It's the time machine screen from bank vault in the pilot. Maybe they just threw it into the promo (and recolored it red) for visual effect.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Nov 18, 2008 22:36:38 GMT -5
The way the promo was played, we see Jesse saying "I'm here to stop her. I'm here to save him", which almost certainly is being told to Derek. Then they cut to Cameron's face in her fancy outfit, which implies Jesse is not talking TO Cameron, but ABOUT Cameron.
Edit: Just looked at it again. Nope, Cameron image is BEFORE Jesse, not afterward. But I can't tell you Jesse is talking to. If she's talking TO Cameron, then nothing makes sense. If she's talking to Derek or Sarah, then it makes sense.
Edit: Nope, looked at it again. The Jesse voice starts talking OVER the image of Cameron. Conclusion: she's talking ABOUT Cameron, not TO Cameron.
This all makes sense to some degree if you follow my theory that Cameron has her own agenda. That agenda, however, is not necessarily something that John has to be "saved" from.
If you recall episode two of this season, Cameron told John that his relationship with her - and reprogrammed Terminators in general, by implication - would "upset people".
I suspect Jesse is one of those who is "upset". And since she is close to Derek - and we all know Derek's opinion about Terminators in general and Cameron in particular - I see this as a case where Jesse and Derek are going to try to gang up on Cameron.
However, Jesse does NOT know that Derek is John's uncle, presumably. And John is NOT going to be happy about any attempt by Derek and Jesse to take out Cameron, even if Jesse comes up with some story about how it's necessary.
John can't kill Cameron absent a really BIG reason. Episode one established that beyond all doubt. So what may happen is that Derek and Jesse have a falling out over this plot as Derek didn't seem to be in a hurry to kill Fischer either. Jesse is even more bloodthirsty and irrational than Derek in this regard, and that won't go over well with John or Sarah if it involves Cameron.
Or this business of Derek possibly having blocked out an entire brainwashing episode - or a changed time line - may well bring up the "D&D" interrogation room again. Perhaps Jesse knows that Derek was brainwashed by Cameron - and that it is Derek she intends to save by killing Cameron. Since Cameron may or may not remember any of that, once again that puts Jesse and possibly Derek at odds with John.
In any event, if Jesse tries to take out Cameron, I predict one dead Jesse coming up at some point. And frankly, I couldn't care less since she's less trustworthy and less competent even than Derek.
Right now, Cameron is the only character on the show I can trust to be both competent and have a straightforward agenda - even though I can't be sure what her agenda is.
In fact, we can't even be sure that Jesse isn't a "grey" who has dumbfounded and confused Derek with her story about his brainwashing, and her actual plan is to kill Cameron to make it easier for Skynet to kill John at some point.
If I were John and apprised of her status by Derek, I'd be highly suspicious if she didn't have some sort of code word provided by my future self to establish that she's at all trustworthy. With all these people coming through the time chamber, he needs to establish which ones are coming from him and which ones are coming through on their own. That would have screwed Cameron up had he such a procedure in place before she went. But then it could be he never expected to send anyone else through except Kyle. But once he built a time machine for the Resistance, that should have been part of the procedure to insure some sort of communication between those in the past and those in the future. On the other hand, it's not clear how he could provide such a challenge procedure given that he has no communication with the past other than those he sends through.
He should have done it with the T-800 he sent through in the "T-2" movie. But of course James Cameron knew nothing about a TV series at that point! ;D
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Post by chinova on Nov 19, 2008 5:27:43 GMT -5
The "She" Jesse speaks of should be Weaver. I mean, she is the one working on the Turk. But Jesse did go back in time without authorization, so who maybe it is Cameron she talks about.
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