cyadon
Major
A Random Sci-Fi Geek
Posts: 612
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Post by cyadon on Dec 2, 2008 11:08:17 GMT -5
MOD NOTE: Let's stick with the topic of Terminator and not get too far into the topic of LOST.
Thank you,
The Mods
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Post by aceplace57 on Dec 2, 2008 11:19:25 GMT -5
I like episodes that step away from the serialized story. It's a wonderful way to focus on a single character. Cameron has so many mysteries. It was fun seeing her in a completely different context and setting. We got a small peek into her life away from Connor land. Of course, most of the episodes should deal directly with the serialized story. They have 22 episodes this season. It's reasonable to have 5 or so that focuses on a single character. I seriously did not see Cameron as more "relaxed." More talkative, sure because there's this guy talking to a hot girl so he's going to ask her questions. At home, everyone knows who she is so why ask about random shit that doesn't matter? But yeah, didn't see her as relaxed . Maybe I was trying to to project human behavior onto Cameron. I find it nearly impossible not to do that. There's a basic need to somehow personalize Cameron. She'd be very dull if her reactions and behavior are exactly the same in every situation. Eric doesn't see her as dangerous or a hated robot. Eric treats Cameron like a normal person that's also very attractive. It seems reasonable that Cameron's programing would react differently in a non-threatening situation. There I go again. Personalizing Cameron. ;D I almost forgot to mention how much I liked seeing John fumble with the video game. That was a shrewd story move and I'm glad they avoided the nerdy gaming wizard stereotype. John was into games in T2 but that was back in the eighties and early nineties. He jumped forward 10 years and gaming is totally different. John is older and too busy to waste time learning a whole new generation of games. It reminds me of myself. I gave up gaming 12 years ago and have no interest in them now. Been there, done that. Cameron shooting a Tommy Gun was fun. They wouldn't stop a Terminator with their .45 caliber rimless auto pistol cartridges. But who cares. ;D The visual was priceless.
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Post by thecolours on Dec 2, 2008 11:45:54 GMT -5
This is an episode that your going to love or hate. But, I suggest watching this episode twice before deciding. There was so many intersting things being said in all the dialouge. It would be a shame that everyone didn't catch it all, because they thought this episode was boring, and tuned out mentally.
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cyadon
Major
A Random Sci-Fi Geek
Posts: 612
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Post by cyadon on Dec 2, 2008 12:21:29 GMT -5
This is an episode that your going to love or hate. But, I suggest watching this episode twice before deciding. There was so many intersting things being said in all the dialouge. It would be a shame that everyone didn't catch it all, because they thought this episode was boring, and tuned out mentally. I agree that the scenes with Cameron interacting with Eric were easily the best parts of this episode. There were some interesting revelations there and I think it's particularly interesting to note that Cameron's previous interest in the suicide pamphlet was not just because of John. And many of you may have seen the quality of acting of Eric as the man behind the beard and wheelchair also played Trombley in 'Generation Kill' on HBO. Excellent young talent, and it showed.
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Post by rove3 on Dec 2, 2008 12:41:21 GMT -5
I have no problem with stand-alone, character centric episodes. I loved seeing Cameron interacting with Eric in a way that she doesn't interact with anyone else in her environment (which even she acknowledges isn't populated with happy people). She knows something is wrong with her. She knows she has no friends. Has she considered self-termination? It's possible. I just didn't find the FB story with Stark all that interesting. Or maybe it just went on too long. I certainly have no problem not getting highly serialized episodes every week as long as the stories are interesting in their entirety. For example, an episode about how a certain main character obtains his tatoos is going to induce yawns from me. This particular story, outside of Cameron in the library, just wasn't interesting to me. But that is merely a matter of taste and therefore very subjective. Different strokes is all.
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Post by potomac79 on Dec 2, 2008 12:42:35 GMT -5
I have to admit that in my blog and fancast, I totally missed the suicide theme (oh, for shame CJ, for shame). It is kind of interesting how this is becoming a recurring theme. How do you deal with existence when that existence is overwhelming or almost certain to have a bad end? We start with Jordan doing a header off of a school building. It's followed up with Cameron giving the willies to the school's counselor. Then we get John risking all to reactivate Cameron (I'm viewing that as a suicide attempt in that he viewed the possibility of Cameron going all terminatory on him as an acceptable outcome). Then there is Derek's attempt that Jesse saved him from. Now Cameron is talking suicide with a guy with recurrent cancer (didn't Greenway make mention of it...and was found hanged in his apt to make it look like suicide? I'll have to check the DVR). ...do we need to start worrying about people locked in the writer's room? ;D Being a Cam-Fan, I really enjoyed this episode. It's amazing what a helpful terminator can do when unshackled from the suspicions and condescensions of the people she's trying to help.
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Post by chrisimo on Dec 2, 2008 13:39:00 GMT -5
Sarah as a soldier should only be thinking pragmatically and worry about ontological questions (about whether or not Cameron is merely simulating emotions etc... or experiencing them) later. Thus, even if Sarah thinks Cameron little more than a very effective simulation of human behavior... if Cameron reliably behaves as a human, for the purpose of the mission treat her as a human. Right now the machines (Weaver and even Stark) get it, in a way the Connors do not. The machines treat humans as humans and Sarah treats Cameron as a machine. Why should she treat her as a human? I don't think Cameron having the force of mind to adjust quickly to Eric's absence and the prospect of Cameron missing him are mutually exclusive. She's a machine and so can compartmentalize on par with what any good Stoic or advanced Buddhist monk would be expected to do. I'm not saying she necessarily “cared,” but her reaction to their last meeting and her "uncertain" pauses and look backs as she walked out the door suggest that she placed enough value in him (for whatever reason) to wonder if the relationship was salvageable. I would imagine that she misses him, but in her own way. For instance, if we were to ask her, assuming for the sake of argument that the current night watch woman is less engaging, if she had a choice, which of the two night watch persons would she prefer to be there? I think she would probably pick Eric. She cares about Eric because he lets her in the library. If he refuses to do that she has to find another place to do whatever she's doing. Additionally, she learns something about humans from him and he is useful in her quest for information. She cares for him like humans would care for money. Although, I'm not that interested in seeing Cameron, or any other Terminator become, strictly speaking, more human or to acquire the human-worshiping orientation of Data from Star Trek. Cameron is a machine and I think her phenomenological experiences of the world and emotions will necessarily be different from ours in a similar though perhaps more radical way than how the phenomenological experiences of non-human animals are likely different. I'm more interested in seeing the lives of these Terminators (and not just Cameron) as lives worth living more or less as they are, rather than simply see them as poor imitations of the more “truly” valuable human lives. While I still think it that it is possible that Cameron will develop some sort of emotions, this episode showed that at the moment, she has none. The scene where she and Eric watched the old recording illustrated that perfectly. He was engaged and you saw him feeling with that woman while she only watched to get information. She knows when to smile to get a benevolent response and she knows when to make in apology but nothing of that seems to be connected to some sort of care (in an emotional sense). I think Cameron may learn to appreciate the company of some humans over others and that this could become via a “family resemblance” something akin to friendship or even love. But just as Uncle Bob did not experience the phenomenological experience of pain the way humans do... It's highly likely (as Cromartie might put it) that her phenomenological experience of it would be quite different, as well as her relationship to those experiences. I think she already makes distinctions on the usefulness of different humans. If a human is more useful, she will appreciate his or her company more than if he or she is less useful.
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Post by littleb on Dec 2, 2008 15:17:44 GMT -5
I'm sort of fascinated by the split response to the episode out there. One thing that's emerged is how much the sci fi television audience-- at least the internet portion of it-- has gotten conditioned to expect maximum serialization in every episode, and complains loudly when something doesn't appear to be tied into the show's main story arc. How far we've come from the days of X-Files and early season Buffy! I like stand alone episodes; TXF was my first real geek-love but the pacing just seemed off in this one and it didn't really catch with me till Cameron went out and searched the stars and then the dots formed and it all kicked up a notch. In terms of Cameron-centric eps, Allison... for me, just worked better. Maybe because Glau gave such a fantastic performance as Allison and Cameron, maybe the story just struck more of a chord. Maybe I'm just a Sarah gal at heart Were Self Made Man and One Two Point filmed close together and the cast split into two parts?? They seemed to have divided the characters down the centre somewhat.
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k8ie
Corporal
Posts: 1,482
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Post by k8ie on Dec 2, 2008 16:45:06 GMT -5
I'm sort of fascinated by the split response to the episode out there. One thing that's emerged is how much the sci fi television audience-- at least the internet portion of it-- has gotten conditioned to expect maximum serialization in every episode, and complains loudly when something doesn't appear to be tied into the show's main story arc. How far we've come from the days of X-Files and early season Buffy! I like stand alone episodes; TXF was my first real geek-love but the pacing just seemed off in this one and it didn't really catch with me till Cameron went out and searched the stars and then the dots formed and it all kicked up a notch. In terms of Cameron-centric eps, Allison... for me, just worked better. Maybe because Glau gave such a fantastic performance as Allison and Cameron, maybe the story just struck more of a chord. Maybe I'm just a Sarah gal at heart I don't like stand-alone episodes in the sense that half the time the X-Files seemed to exist in a schizoid universe where things that were critically important one week were dropped the next, which made me crazy. What I like about "Allison" and "Self-Made" is that, while not carrying on a serialized plot in those specific eps, they both move character forward and expand the narrative canvas. And since they both take pace in short, contained time-spans (a day, a night - hey, I wonder if that's significant) they don't disrupt the character arcs of the other characters.
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Post by ga5speed02 on Dec 2, 2008 17:24:53 GMT -5
so i was thinking. do you think Cameron will tell John and the gang about what happened? I mean she has no need to really but John might ask her what she was doing even tho she had the laundry basket at the end
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t101
Major
Posts: 716
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Post by t101 on Dec 2, 2008 18:09:33 GMT -5
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Post by allergygal on Dec 2, 2008 19:00:11 GMT -5
I have to admit that in my blog and fancast, I totally missed the suicide theme (oh, for shame CJ, for shame). It is kind of interesting how this is becoming a recurring theme. How do you deal with existence when that existence is overwhelming or almost certain to have a bad end? We start with Jordan doing a header off of a school building. It's followed up with Cameron giving the willies to the school's counselor. Then we get John risking all to reactivate Cameron (I'm viewing that as a suicide attempt in that he viewed the possibility of Cameron going all terminatory on him as an acceptable outcome). Then there is Derek's attempt that Jesse saved him from. Now Cameron is talking suicide with a guy with recurrent cancer (didn't Greenway make mention of it...and was found hanged in his apt to make it look like suicide? I'll have to check the DVR). Let's not forget Sarah putting a gun to her head in the pilot. There was also John being being, um, forgetful about checking to see if a gun was loaded before attempting to clean it. And Cromartie telling Sarah she should have killed herself. And we could stretch it a little further with Cameron more or less giving Sarah a do not resuscitate order in the event she "goes bad" again.
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Post by vicheron on Dec 2, 2008 19:51:00 GMT -5
It was very uncharacteristic of Cameron to kill off Stark. It's not part of her mission and she never does anything that's not part of her mission unless the Connors tells her to do it. She wanted to flee after they found out that Cromartie time traveled with them. She didn't want to bother with Carter. She didn't want to rescue Derek. She didn't care about the kid Biddell. This is the only time she takes the initiative against a Terminator without prompt from the Connors.
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Post by jcsorrels on Dec 2, 2008 19:59:22 GMT -5
Anyone think John WANTED Cameron to say something after she discovered he had been out with Riley? It was like he was waiting for a reaction, any reaction...but nothing.
Another scene I liked was when Cam said something like, "the people I hang around aren't very happy." What I think went unsaid: "I'm not very "happy" either."
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Post by aceplace57 on Dec 2, 2008 20:30:56 GMT -5
Let's turn the kiss scene around.
What if Eric and Cameron made out and she came home with a hickey on the neck. How would John respond?
A. Jealous B. Surprised / Shocked that Cameron had interests other than killing. C. Indifferent. She can ride the stair post all night; If it keeps her out of my business D. Bemused. John rushes to the bookstore and buys her an illustrated copy of the Kama Sutra. E. It's a trick. The world revolves around me, John Connor and you're messing with my head.
I vote A. John couldn't stand the idea of another man with Cameron.
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