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Post by allergygal on Jan 26, 2010 4:46:38 GMT -5
In my mind, there are four possibilities: 1. Future!John sent CameronIt could be that Cameron isn't as mysterious as we think and she really was sent back by John to protect him from Cromartie, jump them over Sarah's death and get them to 2007 so they could meet up with Derek and his crew to fight Skynet. Bleh. Too bland. Indiefic has a theory that future!John is a master manipulator who pretended to care about Cameron so that she would have a stronger influence over present-day John. What I like most about that is that it's an idea I'd never even thought of before. It's definitely worth exploring. As an outgrowth of that, I've been thinking about Queen's Gambit and envisioning future!John as this master chess player who's manipulating everything to cause metal to fight metal and ultimately destroy itself ("these programs are too powerful to play people anymore"). Maybe that's what "will you join us?" was all about — John trying to lure metal into his trap (just like The Turk fell for a trap). Could Cameron have been the "queen" he sacrificed to win the game and save humanity? If so, I guess the boy really was "always listening" to his mom 2. Cameron sent herselfWith this idea, I think future!John is dead and Cameron sent herself back to basically carry on her mission. If she was programmed to protect him and he'd died, she would've had no purpose. And as we know, machines never stop. Kyle told us that in T1, we saw it play out in Self Made Man and also with Cromartie. A machine will do whatever it can to stay on mission. I'll assume Cameron picked 1999 because it would intercept Cromartie, probably prevent Sarah from getting busted by Ellison (he was closing in once Charley went to the police), and assuming Sarah really did die of cancer in 2005, jumping her from 1999 would've probably be intended to get her to 2007 with enough years of health left to fight Skynet. I was talking to schmacky recently about the possibility that Cameron has been looping through timeline after timeline trying to complete her objectives: protect John, stop judgement day. It definitely qualifies as a wacky theory, but I think it's a real possibility. So far, I've only just scratched the surface of this and there are a million threads to tie in to make it work. Fisher is the first snag I've hit — Cameron said didn't recognize him and I'd expect she would've known who he was. But she could've been lying. Anyway, long way to go on that ^ one, but I think it's a very cool idea and I'm looking forward to getting deep into it. I foresee pages of timeline diagrams in my future 3. Sarah sent CameronWe already got this discussion going in the Sarah Connor character thread, but we can just continue on with it here if anyone wants to. I still like the idea of it even if I can't make any progress on it right now. 4. Weaver (liquid metal) sent CameronI hate this idea, but I think it's possible that the liquid metal made contact with Cameron at some point after escaping the sub and they plotted out this whole Zeira/Turk/John Henry thing and getting young John to jump to the future, etc etc. I figure the liquid metal sent itself back to become Weaver, so it could be behind sending Cameron back too. So there you have it. Got anything to say about these or want to discuss some theories of your own? Let's hear it!
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terrasj
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Post by terrasj on Jan 26, 2010 11:39:29 GMT -5
Good stuff A.G., after we've all taken a bit of a breather, guess its time to get the discussion rolling again fresh and anew with ideas, possibilities, and good ol' wholesome crack-theories. So how are we gonna tackle this? One theory at a time or pick one at random, tackle it at will? :edit: Cute, you pulled a name change didya?
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Post by allergygal on Jan 26, 2010 14:27:22 GMT -5
Good stuff A.G., after we've all taken a bit of a breather, guess its time to get the discussion rolling again fresh and anew with ideas, possibilities, and good ol' wholesome crack-theories. So how are we gonna tackle this? One theory at a time or pick one at random, tackle it at will? I say dive in at will! Be organized or be random. Expand on what I posted or pose more theory. I'm hoping if we get enough discussion going we might actually figure something out. What makes it so tough is that we know Cameron lies. We don't even know, for example, if Sarah really did die in 2005 in a previous timeline or if Cameron had been looking for them for 73 days. And she contradicts herself too — telling John he has many friends in the future and also that being John Connor can be lonely; telling Sarah she wasn't there to help her stop the birth of Skynet and saying they can go kill it before its born. I think the only thing Cameron has been consistent about from the start is that she's there to protect John. I don't remember if we talked about this in the Sarah-sent-Cam crack!theory or not, but one thing that stands out when I go back and watch episodes is how Cameron seems to listen to Sarah about everything except when it comes to stashing parts. So I think that protecting John is Cameron's primary mission and if she feels she needs to have spare parts around to be able to do that, then stashing spare parts overrides Sarah telling her to destroy all parts. The rest of the time, though, doesn't it seem like she does whatever Sarah tells her to do? I'm not sure if that plays more into Sarah-sent-Cameron crack theory or if it could be that future!John told her to listen to his mother since his younger self was kind of a mess I thought I'd try and be more consistent, but it feels weird to not be allergygal over here. I may have to switch it back
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terrasj
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Post by terrasj on Jan 26, 2010 18:42:36 GMT -5
Alrighty then... Lets open this big ol' pandora's box Now, I just have to gather my thoughts so what I write sounds half intelligent As for the name change - I have 3 handles, and as much as I'd like to consolidate them across the boards, sometimes its nice having something different. You could revert back to your older username if it feels right, then put a footnote in your sig about your other ones aka L.J etc.
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figaruna
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Post by figaruna on Jan 26, 2010 18:44:53 GMT -5
Oooo, neato. I likes this thread I'm a little drugged up at the moment (legal prescription, I swear! ) to contribute anything complicated, but I'll make a few comments-- 1. Future!John sent CameronI always thought that the "sacrificed queen" was Allison. Everything that happened in the future flashes of D&D smacked of John mastermindiness to me, Derek's torture included. Arrghh. John's various iterations of the above re: the nature of Terminators were beyond maddening to me in S2, especially in consideration of his actions/decisions in the finale. I can only hope that his bubbling away was more of a shock-induced paralysis thing than an any-level-of-logical weighing of priorities. Guess we'll find out once we get our DVD movie and/or S3. (Feral Maternal Amazingness 2013! \m/) 2. Cameron sent herselfI dunno if I consider this "wacky theory"... Once I stepped away from Cameron's version of future!history from The Pilot, I pretty much went with everything you just posited, especially once we started getting Jesse's future-flashes in the Sub episodes. I always thought that Cameron lied to Derek about not knowing Fisher. She didn't seem the least bit interested in (1) why Derek decided to call her period (I reckon that that didn't happen too often ) or (2) in the HELLO! EARTH TO CAMERON!picture-of-the-dude-that-Derek-apparently-thinks-you-should-recognize! In contrast, Cameron totally jumped on the mysterious call from Mexico that Derek got in "Mr. Ferguson Is Ill Today," so her completely blase' reaction to the Fisher thing pointedly gave me that "Hmmm. So this already happened before...?" feeling. Kinda like how most of D&D's future-flashes did. 3. Sarah sent CameronSorry! Still tryna wrap my head around this puppy! 4. Weaver (liquid metal) sent CameronEww, I don't like this theory either. lol
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Post by allergygal on Jan 26, 2010 21:58:18 GMT -5
Now, I just have to gather my thoughts so what I write sounds half intelligent Don't worry about sounding half intelligent. A quarter is fine. Oooo, neato. I likes this thread I'm a little drugged up at the moment (legal prescription, I swear! ) to contribute anything complicated, but I'll make a few comments-- 1. Future!John sent CameronI always thought that the "sacrificed queen" was Allison. Everything that happened in the future flashes of D&D smacked of John mastermindiness to me, Derek's torture included. Arrghh. John's various iterations of the above re: the nature of Terminators were beyond maddening to me in S2, especially in consideration of his actions/decisions in the finale. I can only hope that his bubbling away was more of a shock-induced paralysis thing than an any-level-of-logical weighing of priorities. Guess we'll find out once we get our DVD movie and/or S3. (Feral Maternal Amazingness 2013! \m/) Ouch. The furtherest I can go down the future!John-isn't-so-nice path is Jesse's viewpoint — that he was a failure as the leader of the resistance because he trusted metal more than his fellow man. But I can't go for future!John being flat-out evil, which is exactly what he'd be if he ordered the torture and murder of Allison and the capture and interrogation of Derek. It doesn't make sense to me anyway. Why would John need to find out the location of a resistance bunker from Derek? Why would John need a cyborg that looked like Allison? 2. Cameron sent herselfI dunno if I consider this "wacky theory"... Once I stepped away from Cameron's version of future!history from The Pilot, I pretty much went with everything you just posited, especially once we started getting Jesse's future-flashes in the Sub episodes. Yeah it was really Jesse's story that made locked in for me that future!John was dead and Cameron sent herself back. But I still think her looping through timeline after timeline is a stretch at this point. I've assumed she came from Jesse's timeline but jumped back before Jesse (hence Jesse's desire to jump back and stop her). In contrast, Cameron totally jumped on the mysterious call from Mexico that Derek got in "Mr. Ferguson Is Ill Today," so her completely blase' reaction to the Fisher thing pointedly gave me that "Hmmm. So this already happened before...?" feeling. Kinda like how most of D&D's future-flashes did. Hmm. I don't think I can believe Cameron knew about Mexico in advance. If she then she would've already known that Cromartie was on his way to Mexico to intercept John and I can't imagine her casually hanging out with Derek until a call came in. Although there was something odd about the way she says "We have to find John. I can't let anything happen to him." when they were at the jail. It's almost like she could've finished that line with "...like last time." 3. Sarah sent CameronSorry! Still tryna wrap my head around this puppy! If it was easy to wrap your head around, it wouldn't be crack theory! -- It just occurred to me that if Cameron is looping through time, multiple jump scenarios are possible. John could've sent her back initially, but things didn't work out right and the next time she sent herself back and things didn't work out right so she sent herself back again and over and over again until she completed the objectives. If I go back to the "computer vs computer" idea — that future!John wanted to get Weaver and JH to the future to fight Skynet, then maybe we could look at BTR as a success... until John jumped forward. That couldn't possibly be part of future!John's plan and it probably screwed up everything. Good thing Sarah is still in the game. She'll fix everything
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figaruna
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Post by figaruna on Jan 26, 2010 23:03:28 GMT -5
Ouch. The furtherest I can go down the future!John-isn't-so-nice path is Jesse's viewpoint — that he was a failure as the leader of the resistance because he trusted metal more than his fellow man. But I can't go for future!John being flat-out evil, which is exactly what he'd be if he ordered the torture and murder of Allison and the capture and interrogation of Derek. It doesn't make sense to me anyway. Why would John need to find out the location of a resistance bunker from Derek? Why would John need a cyborg that looked like Allison? I dunno... Maybe it's because I'm a big fan of indiefic's 'verse (i.e. I believe Future!John is irrevocably scarred in pretty much every way possible, sadly ). Remember, I totally own up to my relative non-thinkiness, but when it comes down to it, I have to accept that John will do horrible, soul-tearing things in an attempt (I assume) to keep a presumably successful timeline intact. He sends Kyle back knowing he's going to die a horrible death so that he can ensure his existence (=> HUMANS WIN). I can't think of a single reason either why Cameron as Allison!Bot is necessary either, but since the series (only saying that cuz it's accurate at the moment!) got cut off at the knees way before its time, I'm guessing/hoping(?!) for some kind of reveal surrounding why throwing Allison to the Terminators was important enough to justify... Reason I think that John masterminded Allison's capture and eventual death/Termincarnation is that I don't know how else to explain Interrogation!Cameron's line about Allison having been "chosen" by John Connor. As much as I hate to think of John actually giving the okay on that, I simply can't think of another way to explain that word choice by Cameron. (And I don't have the foggiest idea as to what Cameron meant by "We, The Machine Defectors, also chose you," so I'm just gonna cowardly leave that alone. ;_;) As for why Derek was captured/tortured, I know I can't try to justify it as another scar that John planned to bear since all of that happened post-Allison's death... But, why did Skynet just let Derek and crew gooooo??? And why did John suddenly choose Derek and crew to also return to the past??? It doesn't make any blinkin' sense... which, I guess, forces me to admit that evil!mastermind!John is sorta my go to theory when my brain is forced to recognize its inferiority. Yeah it was really Jesse's story that made locked in for me that future!John was dead and Cameron sent herself back. But I still think her looping through timeline after timeline is a stretch at this point. I've assumed she came from Jesse's timeline but jumped back before Jesse (hence Jesse's desire to jump back and stop her). Hm, yeah. I'll take that part back since I too believe that Cameron is also from Jesse's timeline. Hmm. I don't think I can believe Cameron knew about Mexico in advance. If she then she would've already known that Cromartie was on his way to Mexico to intercept John and I can't imagine her casually hanging out with Derek until a call came in. Oopies, my bad. I wasn't clear in my last post. I meant to say that Cameron jumped to eavesdrop on Derek's mysterious call --which we know came from Mexico, but was complete WTF news to both Derek and Cameron. I only mentioned Cameron's quickness to figure out what the heck was going on in regards to Derek's mystery call in "Mr. Ferguson" to contrast it to her seeming indifference to Derek's affairs in "Complications." Although there was something odd about the way she says "We have to find John. I can't let anything happen to him" when they were at the jail. It's almost like she could've finished that line with "...like last time." TOTALS! Although I don't think the Mexico situation had happened in any previous timeline. I think that bit was knew due to Riley's presence. If it was easy to wrap your head around, it wouldn't be crack theory! Too true! But I'm still trying! LOL. It just occurred to me that if Cameron is looping through time, multiple jump scenarios are possible. John could've sent her back initially, but things didn't work out right and the next time she sent herself back and things didn't work out right so she sent herself back again and over and over again until she completed the objectives. ...I think I'm gonna have to take a soft serve break while you make those timelines cuz this is way past my limit, I think. *sadlol.* If I go back to the "computer vs computer" idea — that future!John wanted to get Weaver and JH to the future to fight Skynet, then maybe we could look at BTR as a success... until John jumped forward. That couldn't possibly be part of future!John's plan and it probably screwed up everything. Good thing Sarah is still in the game. She'll fix everything Huh....... Inter-est-eeng! That would make the coordinates on the time machine make sense... But Weaver seemed to want the rest of them to come... right?! Dunno what the truck that was about....
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schmacky
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Post by schmacky on Jan 26, 2010 23:34:07 GMT -5
when it comes down to it, I have to accept that John will do horrible, soul-tearing things in an attempt (I assume) to keep a presumably successful timeline intact. He sends Kyle back knowing he's going to die a horrible death so that he can ensure his existence (=> HUMANS WIN). Actually Kyle didn't die a horrible death. He died instantly. That's actually a pretty good way to go out. I could never see it. There's no reason it would need to be a cyborg that looked like Allison. It could look like anyone. John would still react the same way. As long as the cyborg is pretty. What about John Connor choosing her to be part of his inner circle? And that's why they chose Allison. Because she had an in with Connor. I don't think Derek got back from being captured and the next week John Connor sent him to the past. I think weeks and months went by. It wasn't "suddeny." Also, Skynet could have let the guys go for psychological reasons. Remember, if we take anything away from Fischer.. (and just because he wasn't there in Derek's life doesn't mean Skynet wasn't learning from Greys about humans), it's that Skynet wants to know psychologically about humans. They're messing with them. If you kill everyone in a camp then who is going to tell the horrible stories to everyone else? Stories will spread like wild flower and the people will be scared even more shitless of Terminators which makes them not as effective fighters...
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figaruna
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Post by figaruna on Jan 27, 2010 1:21:15 GMT -5
Actually Kyle didn't die a horrible death. He died instantly. That's actually a pretty good way to go out. True, but John doesn't know that, right? Just that he died at the hands of a Terminator. Like Allison did. (Also an instantaneous death.) Like I said, I can't give any founded reason, but I could totally make something up if I had to (e.g. it was integral that Derek needed to think Cameron was Allison at the House of Human Toture for whatever reason). Oh, hah. I completely missed the Obvious Boat on that one. That's entirely possible. Hmm, that's true. The time lapse between those two things is really undefined. But if Skynet did intend for Derek, et al. to be components of psychological warfare, I really would've liked to have seen evidence of that in some of future-flashes... (Boo, evil, evil plot holes!! I love you, but I hate you. )
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Post by allergygal on Jan 27, 2010 6:51:51 GMT -5
I dunno... Maybe it's because I'm a big fan of indiefic's 'verse (i.e. I believe Future!John is irrevocably scarred in pretty much every way possible, sadly ). Remember, I totally own up to my relative non-thinkiness, but when it comes down to it, I have to accept that John will do horrible, soul-tearing things in an attempt (I assume) to keep a presumably successful timeline intact. He sends Kyle back knowing he's going to die a horrible death so that he can ensure his existence (=> HUMANS WIN). I would be really surprised if future!John from any of the timelines has turned out that bad. Like Jesse told Riley: "There's a reason people follow him all over hell." There had to be something likable about the guy! If future!John was tossing people to the metal, rumors would spread through the resistance and someone like Jesse would've come back to assassinate him, not just try turn him against Cameron. Our John Connor is still muddling his way through his confused teen years, but he'll come around in time. Why not just give it to them if we're going to act like them.People matter, John, they're all that matter.Reason I think that John masterminded Allison's capture and eventual death/Termincarnation is that I don't know how else to explain Interrogation!Cameron's line about Allison having been "chosen" by John Connor. As much as I hate to think of John actually giving the okay on that, I simply can't think of another way to explain that word choice by Cameron. (And I don't have the foggiest idea as to what Cameron meant by "We, The Machine Defectors, also chose you," so I'm just gonna cowardly leave that alone. ;_;) Cameron wasn't a defector. That line she told Allison about some machines wanting peace with humans might've been true, but it certainly didn't apply to her. Not only did she snap Allison's neck, but when present-day Cameron was talking to the counselor, she said she was an infiltrator and wanted to put John Connor's head on a pike. So clearly future!Cameron was not looking for peace. I agree with what schmacky said, that Allison was chosen by the metal because she had a bracelet. Future!Cameron had several of them, so she knew they had some significance, she just didn't know what it was yet. I did get the feeling that only a handful of people had such bracelets, so I've assumed it wasn't just a pass to get into camp, but maybe to signify the person had clearance to see John. Why Allison would be part of John Connor's inner circle, though, I have no idea. As for why Derek was captured/tortured, I know I can't try to justify it as another scar that John planned to bear since all of that happened post-Allison's death... But, why did Skynet just let Derek and crew gooooo??? And why did John suddenly choose Derek and crew to also return to the past??? It doesn't make any blinkin' sense... which, I guess, forces me to admit that evil!mastermind!John is sorta my go to theory when my brain is forced to recognize its inferiority. I'm on board with not-so-nice mastermind John, but I can't go evi/i]l mastermind John... at least until we catch a glimpse of him in an oversized executive chair, stroking a long-haired white cat (a sure sign of eeeeeeevil!).
With Derek and company getting released from capture, I wonder if the idea was that once Skynet knew someone could be broken, they'd let them go and pick them up again sometime. The way Derek said it's always a game, I wonder if maybe he hadn't been captured before? Or maybe they implanted a tracking device? If Kaliba was doing that back in 2008/9, Skynet could certainly be doing it in the future.
If I go back to the "computer vs computer" idea — that future!John wanted to get Weaver and JH to the future to fight Skynet, then maybe we could look at BTR as a success... until John jumped forward. That couldn't possibly be part of future!John's plan and it probably screwed up everything. Good thing Sarah is still in the game. She'll fix everything Huh....... Inter-est-eeng! That would make the coordinates on the time machine make sense... But Weaver seemed to want the rest of them to come... right?! Dunno what the truck that was about....
The only person Weaver asked to come along to the future was Ellison. She never asked John, though. He just hitched a ride on her time bubble.
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figaruna
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Post by figaruna on Jan 28, 2010 1:08:10 GMT -5
I would be really surprised if future!John from any of the timelines has turned out that bad. Like Jesse told Riley: "There's a reason people follow him all over hell." There had to be something likable about the guy! If future!John was tossing people to the metal, rumors would spread through the resistance and someone like Jesse would've come back to assassinate him, not just try turn him against Cameron. Our John Connor is still muddling his way through his confused teen years, but he'll come around in time. Why not just give it to them if we're going to act like them.People matter, John, they're all that matter.Yeah, that last quote has always made me think twice (and more) about the whole evil-mastermind John idea... But I still find the idea viable because I don't really think sending Kyle to his death was any less bad than sending Allison to her death or setting up Derek's capture and interrogation. I don't think I really consider it to be my One True Theory (I can totally see John regarding Kyle as his "one unforgivable sin that will never again be repeated"), but because he did send Kyle to '84, I still have to consider evil mastermindiness possible. This is really sad and somewhat shameful, but, you know, I've never really watched "Allison from Palmdale" with anything other than "Omg, Summer Glau is such an awesome actress!!1" in mind, so I pretty much missed that whole infiltrator admission bit from that scene with the counselor, lol. So thanks for pointing that out. If they do go there, I soooo want that to be shot! LOL! You know, that seems so horribly obvious now....!? True, Weaver explicitly asked only Ellison, but I thought that was only because he was the only one outside of the bubble area. Weaver didn't complain about Sarah stepping out, so I can't say she needed Sarah to travel forward, but it just blows my mind that Weaver didn't bat an eye at John bubbling to 20xx. You'd think Weaver would realize that that would probably screw things up a whole lot in the future... Unless... (1) John was always meant to go forward (asdsaghfagsh?!?!) or (2) John's actually not super-important to the future?!
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Post by littleb on Jan 29, 2010 5:15:08 GMT -5
He sends Kyle back knowing he's going to die a horrible death so that he can ensure his existence (=> HUMANS WIN). Actually Kyle didn't die a horrible death. He died instantly. That's actually a pretty good way to go out. He kinda got shot a bit first though... which looked pretty painful! But, why did Skynet just let Derek and crew gooooo??? And why did John suddenly choose Derek and crew to also return to the past??? It doesn't make any blinkin' sense... which, I guess, forces me to admit that evil!mastermind!John is sorta my go to theory when my brain is forced to recognize its inferiority. I don't think Derek got back from being captured and the next week John Connor sent him to the past. I think weeks and months went by. It wasn't "suddeny." I think there was some passing of time. He was taken to a different bunker, the scene where the T-888 goes bad and Cameron eventually stops it. I always figured quite a while had passed and they'd been sorting out the TDE. Didn't Kyle jump from Topanga? Which suggests that Connor and co must have been busy building their own TDE after that because Topanga was destroyed. Once they get it built, they ask Derek and crew to jump through. Or maybe they just scouted for volunteers and Derek - with his plans for offing Goode - stepped up. Also, Skynet could have let the guys go for psychological reasons. Remember, if we take anything away from Fischer.. (and just because he wasn't there in Derek's life doesn't mean Skynet wasn't learning from Greys about humans), it's that Skynet wants to know psychologically about humans. They're messing with them. If you kill everyone in a camp then who is going to tell the horrible stories to everyone else? Stories will spread like wild flower and the people will be scared even more shitless of Terminators which makes them not as effective fighters... Definitely. What's four lives if you've destroyed a bunker full of their friends and comrades? Derek has to live with the fact that he gave their location away, the others have to live with the loss and whatever happened to them in the time they were held. Historically, didn't tyrants tend to leave a survivor to tell the tale? I love the idea that Skynet isn't just there to arbitrarily murder and enslave, it's messing with its victims as well. It just makes them that much more insidious and evil. I think that's why Complications works so brilliantly, the idea of humans selling themselves out to teach the machines how to break humans. It's a pretty horrible concept. And I always loved that Derek probably starts the ball rolling by torturing the young Fisher in the way he does... All of which has nothing to do with who sent Cameron back. Um... John?
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Post by allergygal on Jan 30, 2010 17:34:27 GMT -5
People matter, John, they're all that matter. Yeah, that last quote has always made me think twice (and more) about the whole evil-mastermind John idea... But I still find the idea viable because I don't really think sending Kyle to his death was any less bad than sending Allison to her death or setting up Derek's capture and interrogation. I don't think I really consider it to be my One True Theory (I can totally see John regarding Kyle as his "one unforgivable sin that will never again be repeated"), but because he did send Kyle to '84, I still have to consider evil mastermindiness possible. I still don't get how sending Kyle back could ever lead to a conclusion that future!John is evil. He was brought up to believe he was mankind's only hope for survival and told that his very existence depended on Kyle going back in time. When that moment comes, Kyle volunteers to go, knowing it's a one-way trip. I think it's completely illogical for John to think he'll disappear if he doesn't send Kyle through time, but assuming he does, I don't see anything even close to evil about sending him. This is really sad and somewhat shameful, but, you know, I've never really watched "Allison from Palmdale" with anything other than "Omg, Summer Glau is such an awesome actress!!1" in mind, so I pretty much missed that whole infiltrator admission bit from that scene with the counselor, lol. So thanks for pointing that out. Hee. Don't feel bad. Not long ago, I was having a late-night chat with schmacky and I was questioning whether future!Cameron could've been working with "Weaver" as far back as Allison from Palmdale (because of the thing she says about some machines wanting peace). That conversation continued something like this: Schmacky: Dude, head on a pike. Me: Oh yeah. Duh. And I'd just watched the episode right before that! Sometimes even I forget stuff Weaver didn't complain about Sarah stepping out, so I can't say she needed Sarah to travel forward, but it just blows my mind that Weaver didn't bat an eye at John bubbling to 20xx. You'd think Weaver would realize that that would probably screw things up a whole lot in the future... Unless... (1) John was always meant to go forward (asdsaghfagsh?!?!) or (2) John's actually not super-important to the future?! Weaver seemed to think John Henry was more important to saving the world than John Connor. Even if she thought they were of equal importance, though, her plan was to go get John Henry and bring him back. Since John wanted the chip that Weaver said was in JH's head, they were going to be on the same quest. So anything that might be screwed up by John jumping ahead would be undone when she and John and JH/Cam all jumped back again.
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Post by MetalMint on Feb 2, 2010 6:50:33 GMT -5
Would not be to quick to draw the line since both situations could exist. John could have many friends AND still feel lonely. She could have not been there to help during one time-line AND still be there in another time-line.
Also, simply because Cameron says something that happens to be false does not make it a lie. Since her given information on the situations could be different.
I think Cameron may or may not be saying lies.
One major difference I hold strongly is I still don't think Allison ever really completely died or necessarily died at all. Since during the flashback episode. Cameron's flash back triggers were things from Allison's perspective of events. Which the terminator version could never have seen, experienced, or have emotional reaction to the events. Especially since they are directly from a perspective seen by Allison.
For example: * Allison in the trapped in the net. This flashback was triggered by an event by Cameron seeing herself in a balloon in the present at the grocery store.
* Allison in the bright lights of the interrogation. This flashback was triggered by an event by Cameron seeing the police officers bright flashlight in the present at the grocery store.
* Allison getting a barcode burned on her arm. In the present at the Jail cell Cameron looks at her arm grabs it and asks "can tattoos disappear."
These are events that only the real Allison experienced and knows about. So how does Cameron experience these events in the the flashbacks or have those triggers?
Because of this I hold falling unconscious on the table being presumably dead is not enough.
Anyways, one more hypothesis to add to the pot. What if Cameron never was sent back by anyone and it was an eventful terrible mishap accident? And Cameron then created her own objectives on what to do next.
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Post by allergygal on Feb 2, 2010 15:11:29 GMT -5
Would not be to quick to draw the line since both situations could exist. John could have many friends AND still feel lonely. She could have not been there to help during one time-line AND still be there in another time-line. Also, simply because Cameron says something that happens to be false does not make it a lie. Since her given information on the situations could be different. I think Cameron may or may not be saying lies. Fair enough. He could have many friends and still be lonely in a sense. I'll use this instead: Cameron tells John, "In the future, you have many friends." Perry tells Derek, "Connor doesn't have any friends." The point is Cameron lies, for the mission, even about important stuff. She admits that to John. We can speculate about what exactly her mission has been, but since we don't know for sure, we also can't always be sure when she's lying and when she's telling the truth. Sarah's cancer is a perfect example. The only thing we have to go on is Cameron's word, which we know can be unreliable. She might be telling the truth or it could be a lie she told Sarah for some manipulative purpose. One major difference I hold strongly is I still don't think Allison ever really completely died or necessarily died at all. Since during the flashback episode. Cameron's flash back triggers were things from Allison's perspective of events. Which the terminator version could never have seen, experienced, or have emotional reaction to the events. Especially since they are directly from a perspective seen by Allison. For example: * Allison in the trapped in the net. This flashback was triggered by an event by Cameron seeing herself in a balloon in the present at the grocery store. * Allison in the bright lights of the interrogation. This flashback was triggered by an event by Cameron seeing the police officers bright flashlight in the present at the grocery store. * Allison getting a barcode burned on her arm. In the present at the Jail cell Cameron looks at her arm grabs it and asks "can tattoos disappear." These are events that only the real Allison experienced and knows about. So how does Cameron experience these events in the the flashbacks or have those triggers? Because of this I hold falling unconscious on the table being presumably dead is not enough. Anyways, one more hypothesis to add to the pot. What if Cameron never was sent back by anyone and it was an eventful terrible mishap accident? And Cameron then created her own objectives on what to do next. I think they took a few liberties with the POV to confuse us a bit, just like Cameron herself was confused. Short of some ludicrous scenario where Allison's brain was preserved and downloaded right after Cameron snapped her neck, we can be sure she was dead. But if it were possible for Skynet to download data from a human brain, they wouldn't need to waste time interrogating humans. What would be the point of asking Allison all about herself and what the bracelet was for if all they had to do was download her brain and find out? Having said that, I do think there have been too many hints at Skynet being able to access the human brain for there not to be something to it. I've had a wacky theory in the works about this, so I went ahead and posted it in a new thread.
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