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Post by allergygal on Apr 1, 2010 4:26:01 GMT -5
This is really just wacky theory masquerading as character discussion k8ie tried to sell me one time on her wacky theory that the engineer was Sarah's dad. I didn't bite then because she didn't make a very convincing case (and also because I'm less inclined to buy someone else's crack, when I've got so much of my own ;D). But I was just watching the pilot and started wondering about 1963. Why pick 1963 for the year the bank was built? What could be significant about that? The only thing we've got happening around that time in the story is Sarah's birth. Whether we go with TSCC's screwed up version of Sarah being born in 1965 or 66, or my preferred version that Ellison screwed up her age and she was actually born in 1964, Sarah is born after the bank is built — when the engineer would have been there. Hmm. Maybe k8ie was onto something. We do get some tidbits about her father in the show. There's the cut scene from Demon Hand where she talks about him, but I don't regard cut scenes as canon. We don't really need that anyway, though, because we get plenty in the voiceovers from Tower is Tall: Maybe the war he fought wasn't in a foreign land, but in the future. What could be cool about this is that it makes Sarah's birth as freaky as John's birth. Both mother and son would be fathered by future soldiers. The difference, though, is that Sarah's mom would obviously have never knew the truth about Sarah's dad. And we also have no reason to believe future!John knew at any point that when he sent the engineer back, that it was his own grandfather (assuming future!John is who sent him). I kind of doubt any of that was intended in the show, but I think it's a cool idea. So now that I've sold myself on this, have I sold anyone else? Or are k8ie and I just nuts?
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Post by littleb on Apr 1, 2010 6:51:31 GMT -5
This is really just wacky theory masquerading as character discussion Just thought you'd sneak it in under the radar, huh? Well, the Beatles were popular and the US were testing nuclear bombs in Nevada every five minutes. Oh, and General Hospital had its TV premiere! OTOH, maybe you're both on something *bg* Having said that, I do kinda like the theory... even though I think it's nuts. He lost his job when they made his factory automated didn't he? See, I do consider those scenes canon, because they were supposed to be there and were then added to a version of the ep that the PTB actually did intend for us to see. There's a bit of a difference between skills involved in working in a mattress factory and being an engineer who builds a bank and a TDE. Which of course absolutely destroys the wacky theory for me. But it has just given me an excuse to sit and watch the deleted scene again. That's not too far-fetched, but I think it's adding one step too many to make him responsible for the bank as well. I guess the problem is, where does it stop? Did a future soldier come back to get Sarah's gran pregnant with her mum to make sure that Sarah and then John were born? At some point, things just have to work out the way they work out without any intervention from TDEs! You are kinda nuts, but I like you anyways I think her dad worked in a crappy factory made even crappier when he lost his job to be replaced by machines. He bummed around, probably caused a marriage breakdown and then went to 'nam. Came back completely messed up. Turned to drink and died a miserable, lonely death. It probably left Sarah's mum struggling to support what family they had left - from the deleted scene, her mum was a waitress - Sarah then follows in mum's footsteps whilst simultaneously trying to break out of the rut and get herself an education. Enter Kyle Reese stage-left and we know the rest. The other thing is, if Sarah's mum was as important as Sarah herself - why no assassination attempt?
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Post by allergygal on Apr 1, 2010 14:32:36 GMT -5
OTOH, maybe you're both on something *bg* Having said that, I do kinda like the theory... even though I think it's nuts. It's a fun one, isn't it? He lost his job when they made his factory automated didn't he? See, I do consider those scenes canon, because they were supposed to be there and were then added to a version of the ep that the PTB actually did intend for us to see. There's a bit of a difference between skills involved in working in a mattress factory and being an engineer who builds a bank and a TDE. Which of course absolutely destroys the wacky theory for me. But it has just given me an excuse to sit and watch the deleted scene again. I don't think the Demon Hand cut scene blows it. Sarah Connor, mother of the future, legend, was a waitress. Why can't a future war soldier/engineer work in a mattress factory to keep a low profile once his mission is completed? Or maybe he wasn't supposed to stay, but he went AWOL because he fell in love with Sarah's mother. I haven't watched the extended Demon Hand in a long time, but didn't Sarah say it was when the factory was automated that her father really went nuts? So imagine a guy who knows the future — knows that one day machines will take over — losing his crappy mattress-stuffer job to a machine. That could push him over the edge. That's not too far-fetched, but I think it's adding one step too many to make him responsible for the bank as well. I guess the problem is, where does it stop? Did a future soldier come back to get Sarah's gran pregnant with her mum to make sure that Sarah and then John were born? At some point, things just have to work out the way they work out without any intervention from TDEs! Sarah's dad being a future soldier is an interesting idea even without him being the engineer. But then what would his mission have been? Why would he have been sent back? I think it just works better if we make him be the engineer.
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Post by aztalanturf on Apr 2, 2010 22:08:39 GMT -5
It's fun to think about, but I think there is too much crack in the theory, specifically because Cameron said "you send someone back to build it [the TDE]." What would be more possible and less crackish is if The Engineer was sent back with the tech knowledge and Sarah's dad somehow got involved and helped. I could buy that.
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k8ie
Corporal
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Post by k8ie on Apr 2, 2010 22:23:00 GMT -5
I made a perfectly legitimate case. The only thing I didn't do is throw quotes at you!
Jeez.
It's a perfectly acceptable theory. The engineer was left behind - or so we assume. No reason why he can't have bummed around, allowed people to think he was a vet, married a woman and had a child.
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Post by allergygal on Apr 3, 2010 2:24:09 GMT -5
It's fun to think about, but I think there is too much crack in the theory, specifically because Cameron said "you send someone back to build it [the TDE]." What would be more possible and less crackish is if The Engineer was sent back with the tech knowledge and Sarah's dad somehow got involved and helped. I could buy that. That quote by Cameron doesn't contradict anything about the theory. What I'm saying is that an engineer is sent back through time from the future to 1963 to get the job of building the vault in that bank so he can construct a secret time machine (and the plasma rifle) in it. While he's in 1963, he falls in love with a woman, they get married and have a daughter (Sarah Connor). I made a perfectly legitimate case. Show me the receipts.
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Post by littleb on Apr 3, 2010 8:38:05 GMT -5
That quote by Cameron doesn't contradict anything about the theory. What I'm saying is that an engineer is sent back through time from the future to 1963 to get the job of building the vault in that bank so he can construct a secret time machine (and the plasma rifle) in it. While he's in 1963, he falls in love with a woman, they get married and have a daughter (Sarah Connor). Too. Much. Crack! I mean, I'm all for No Fate But What We Make, but this is taking things to a whole 'nother level. But you did make a good point earlier about Sarah's dad being pushed over the brink by his job being taken by machines and him already knowing about J-Day. I hope Future!John has some kind of genetic wall-chart so he can schedule all these necessary-for-my-conception sendbacks I made a perfectly legitimate case. Girlie. You know she has them.
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Post by allergygal on Apr 3, 2010 19:33:12 GMT -5
Too. Much. Crack! I mean, I'm all for No Fate But What We Make, but this is taking things to a whole 'nother level. But you did make a good point earlier about Sarah's dad being pushed over the brink by his job being taken by machines and him already knowing about J-Day. I hope Future!John has some kind of genetic wall-chart so he can schedule all these necessary-for-my-conception sendbacks Well see, that's why future!John was doing such a lousy job. He was so busy scheduling his time travel lineage that he had to hand off the resistance duties to Cameron! ;D Actually, in this theory, future!John wouldn't have known the engineer is his grandfather. Sarah's mom would never have known, so Sarah would never have known, so John would never have known. I think Sarah would have to find out at some point, though. It wouldn't be much fun if she never knew. So I'll say Cameron was in the 1960s for a time and knows the engineer was Sarah's dad. It's always bothered me that Cameron knows how long it took the engineer to scavenge the parts to make that plasma gun. How could she know that? Unless... she was there. There is one minor wrinkle with the theory. The safety deposit box is registered to E. Boykins, not E. Connor. But I'll fix that by saying E. Boykins was the engineer's real name and when his mission was done (or he went AWOL), he changed it to Connor in honor of the great John Connor. Or something like that. Girlie. You know she has them. I don't know, she's been awfully quite. She breezed in here with that mediocre defense and didn't even expand the conversation. I think she's too busy watching SG-1 to have any real thoughts.
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Post by aztalanturf on Apr 3, 2010 22:51:07 GMT -5
There is one minor wrinkle with the theory. The safety deposit box is registered to E. Boykins, not E. Connor. But I'll fix that by saying E. Boykins was the engineer's real name and when his mission was done (or he went AWOL), he changed it to Connor in honor of the great John Connor. Or something like that. Ok that would be a totally stupid move by someone who knows about John Connor and J-Day to change his name to Connor. He knows time travel is possible, why put himself or anyone else at risk by changing his name to Connor? He'd be better off changing his first name to John and his last name to something NOT Connor if he wanted to honor John Connor.
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Post by allergygal on Apr 3, 2010 23:22:11 GMT -5
There is one minor wrinkle with the theory. The safety deposit box is registered to E. Boykins, not E. Connor. But I'll fix that by saying E. Boykins was the engineer's real name and when his mission was done (or he went AWOL), he changed it to Connor in honor of the great John Connor. Or something like that. Ok that would be a totally stupid move by someone who knows about John Connor and J-Day to change his name to Connor. He knows time travel is possible, why put himself or anyone else at risk by changing his name to Connor? He'd be better off changing his first name to John and his last name to something NOT Connor if he wanted to honor John Connor. The dude was a mattress stuffer. He wasn't very bright (aside from his ability to make time travel machines and plasma guns, I mean ;D )
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Post by aztalanturf on Apr 3, 2010 23:34:41 GMT -5
Someone's gotta "take the car keys" now that Schmacky is away :-p
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Post by littleb on Apr 4, 2010 8:20:15 GMT -5
Someone's gotta "take the car keys" now that Schmacky is away :-p L.M.A.O. I try. But sometimes, it's just kinda fun to give her some space and let her run for a while... I didn't even know the dude had the wrong name, but give AG enough rope... and pretty soon she'll hang her own crack. Which sounded better in my head. I don't know, she's been awfully quite. She breezed in here with that mediocre defense and didn't even expand the conversation. I think she's too busy watching SG-1 to have any real thoughts. *giggles* Subtle AG, very subtle. But if there was one show guaranteed to rot a person's brain...
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k8ie
Corporal
Posts: 1,482
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Post by k8ie on Apr 5, 2010 0:09:38 GMT -5
Girlie. You know she has them. Effin'-A, I do: Always keep the receipts. Keep diggin' AG, keep diggin' - the deeper the hole is before the shootin' starts, the easier it is to hide the bodies.
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Post by allergygal on Apr 5, 2010 2:01:27 GMT -5
I didn't even know the dude had the wrong name And you call yourself a fan? For shame. LOL. Hey my crack is still going strong! When k8ie and I are in agreement, it's like being at the one-two point — strange things can happen (like crack theories being right). Well, subtle is my middle name: Subtle Roxy Bisquaint. Oh hey, look who decided to stop by... Girlie. You know she has them. Effin'-A, I do: Awesome. If only you'd talked 1963 and thrown in some quotes, it wouldn't have taken me 10 months to get on board with it! I like this idea way better than the engineer working with Kaliba theory. The engineer as Sarah's dad feels more Terminator-ish. And I really like the idea that he named his daughter "Sarah" after Sarah Connor, only for her to grow up to actually be Sarah Connor. Bring it.
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k8ie
Corporal
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Post by k8ie on Apr 5, 2010 2:15:16 GMT -5
I didn't even know the dude had the wrong name And you call yourself a fan? For shame. LOL. Hey my crack is still going strong! When k8ie and I are in agreement, it's like being at the one-two point — strange things can happen (like crack theories being right). Three words: To the LighthouseSince the Engineer had to be in LA by 1963 at the latest, I kind of figured it went without saying... Apparently not. That said if I were going to guess at where the show was going, I think it's far more likely that the Engineer ends up being behind Kaliba. I think Charlie Fischer sets a precedent that some of the people sent back had a single objective and once they reached it, were free to live out their lives in what was left of the future before Judgement Day. The tricky thing about Kaliba is that someone is reverse-engineering Skynet technology in the present, using Skynet-like methods to do it (the work camp like setting revealed under the town in Desert Cantos, for example). If it's not the Weaverbot, it's someone with knowledge of Future!War but without access to an endoskeleton schematic (see "To the Lighthouse"), which argues against Kaliba being run by another future program/terminator. The only character mentioned in the series with first-hand knowledge of the future and, we assume, the technological skill to create an HK prototype in the present is... The Engineer. Who could possibly be Sarah's father. ;D Oh, it's brought.
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