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Post by littleb on Apr 5, 2010 8:22:10 GMT -5
I didn't even know the dude had the wrong name And you call yourself a fan? For shame. *g* I call myself a fan who's just worked 48 hours of nights, I can't even remember my own name! *thinks* Crap! What's my name!? LOL. Hey my crack is still going strong! When k8ie and I are in agreement, it's like being at the one-two point — strange things can happen (like crack theories being right). Okay, the Lighthouse, I'll give you that one. The engineer, it's interesting, but I'm still not on board with it. *giggles* Subtle AG, very subtle. Well, subtle is my middle name: Subtle Roxy Bisquaint. Oh hey, look who decided to stop by... Heh, maybe I'm not so addled, cos I know that was a quote from the spooky ninja... Awesome. If only you'd talked 1963 and thrown in some quotes, it wouldn't have taken me 10 months to get on board with it! I like this idea way better than the engineer working with Kaliba theory. The engineer as Sarah's dad feels more Terminator-ish. And I really like the idea that he named his daughter "Sarah" after Sarah Connor, only for her to grow up to actually be Sarah Connor. Now that last bit is just messing with my head. I like the idea that the engineer was a resistance send-back who built a TDE in a bank vault so they'd always have a way to go home. Later, tragically, he got himself quite drunk, fell over, hit his head and died an understated and ultimately, unnoticed death. He left no family to speak of That said if I were going to guess at where the show was going, I think it's far more likely that the Engineer ends up being behind Kaliba. I think Charlie Fischer sets a precedent that some of the people sent back had a single objective and once they reached it, were free to live out their lives in what was left of the future before Judgement Day. True dat. But Cam explicitly states he was one of their send-backs and, while I know she's shifty at times, there really wasn't a reason to doubt her. As for the show, I'm guessing they'd already forgotten about the bugger by Gnothi. The tricky thing about Kaliba is that someone is reverse-engineering Skynet technology in the present, using Skynet-like methods to do it (the work camp like setting revealed under the town in Desert Cantos, for example). If it's not the Weaverbot, it's someone with knowledge of Future!War but without access to an endoskeleton schematic (see "To the Lighthouse"), which argues against Kaliba being run by another future program/terminator. I think Kaliba have T-888 designs, at least (despite the implication in Lighthouse contradicting that.) The Water-cooler T-888 we assumed was one of Kaliba's and there seem to be enough endos being thrown through from the future to suggest that reverse-engineering the design of the machine isn't really going to be an issue. This is what's been bugging me for a while. Sarah's so set on collecting and destroying every part of every machine, but it's so easy to send them through the TDE that that seems wasted effort on her part. Stopping J-Day is more about stopping the AI tech being developed and infiltrating the military, and stopping the damn machines coming through in the first place. Because a new endo seems to be sent through every five minutes. It might take someone with the right skills a while to reverse-engineer an endo, but the coltan is readily available, and the prototypes are running loose all over. Stopping the brain of the concept seems to be key. If Weaver was trying to stop J-Day (my arse!) then the enemy is A.N Other (who subsequently becomes Skynet) which seems to be Kaliba. If Weaver therefore wasn't responsible for attacks such as the one in The Tower and the T-888 who hit Derek's crew, and the machine with the coltan in Heavy Metal then those were probably down to Kaliba which gives them a lot of machines in the present. I can't think there's another party involved because that might literally break my brain. What I could see is Kaliba getting its hooks into John Henry and the Turk still becoming Skynet... but then that might be another fic entirely... The only character mentioned in the series with first-hand knowledge of the future and, we assume, the technological skill to create an HK prototype in the present is... The Engineer. But he died, in a tragic, alcohol-fuelled accident, didn't you know that?
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Apr 5, 2010 20:40:17 GMT -5
True dat. But Cam explicitly states he was one of their send-backs Skynet, Resistance - precedent applies to both/either. Except Lighthouse proves that they didn't. I've never thought Watercooler T was a Kaliba agent - no reason for him to be operating on his own & resupplying from a local gunrunner if he was being controlled by Kaliba. The whole premise of T2 is that Myles Dyson reverse engineering the T-800 chip is a singular event and there's no evidence that any other endo other than John Henry has survived intact so there's no reason to believe that T-888 schematics are widely available and, again, Lighthouse explicitly shows that Kaliba operatives do not have access to T-88 schematics up until the moment in the warehouse. She wasn't. She was trying to control the machine that becomes Skynet. Vick - who killed Derek's crew - was sent back by Skynet to protect A.R.T.I.E.'s (sp?) creator, Barbara, long enough to ensure the traffic monitoring system was in place. We don't know who sent back the machine after the coltan but since his mission also predates Derek's murder of Andy Goode (which leads to the Turk becoming John Henry and creating the Bloody Wall timeline), presumably it was also sent by Skynet. There's no evidence that either machine is related to Kaliba in any way. Based on what Zack & Ash have said, not so much. ;D
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Post by littleb on Apr 6, 2010 4:48:46 GMT -5
Except Lighthouse proves that they didn't. I've never thought Watercooler T was a Kaliba agent - no reason for him to be operating on his own & resupplying from a local gunrunner if he was being controlled by Kaliba. There is that. But then, there is also the coordinated, uniformed water-cooler attack which run through Lighthouse and into Adam Raised a Cain. In attacking Savannah in the same way, he was a part of that attack. That attack was a Kaliba one, explicitly stated in Lighthouse via the link to Sarah's implant, Winston and the guys following the signal she was giving off. I can't see it as a coincidence that the T-888 just happened to wear the same uniform, take on the same guise and attack Savannah. So I always put him as a Kaliba T-888. The "your brother, no kidding" line, seemed shoved in to link a Kaliba AI to John Henry, it confused me at the time, because of the presence of the T-888. I just figured it was a clumsy link which made no sense when you sat and thought about it. ETA: Another link between the Kaliba water-cooler dudes and the T-888 is the PDA John finds on the bodies of the guys who attacked Charley - the photo of Savannah is on there, which leads the Connors to interrupt the water-cooler T-888's attack on Savannah. It seemed so obvious through the episodes that I never for a second considered they weren't all playing for Kaliba. And still don't. The whole premise of T2 is that Myles Dyson reverse engineering the T-800 chip is a singular event and there's no evidence that any other endo other than John Henry has survived intact so there's no reason to believe that T-888 schematics are widely available and, again, Lighthouse explicitly shows that Kaliba operatives do not have access to T-88 schematics up until the moment in the warehouse. And then, not so much if we go with the above. Did Cam leave one in Depot 37 as well? One of the problems with the logic of the show was the number of random T-888s kicking about. It made Sarah's determination to destroy every single part of Vick a little redundant. She wasn't. She was trying to control the machine that becomes Skynet. I have no clue what she was trying to do. I'm not 100% sure that the show did. And seeing as Derek changed the future by offing Andy, who knows what will become Skynet? I would say, The Turk still but the reasons it may/does are completely fluid because it's in different hands. We don't know who sent back the machine after the coltan but since his mission also predates Derek's murder of Andy Goode (which leads to the Turk becoming John Henry and creating the Bloody Wall timeline), presumably it was also sent by Skynet. There's no evidence that either machine is related to Kaliba in any way. No, there's no evidence. But I think the show was setting Kaliba up to be the enemy (which by default would make them Skynet.) How that comes into being is up in the air. I don't think there's a wrong or a right answer to that. The show might have had a plan, it might have been making it up on the fly. I guess it's ours to play around with until they tell us otherwise. But he died, in a tragic, alcohol-fuelled accident, didn't you know that? Based on what Zack & Ash have said, not so much. ;D Well, not having been privy to those discussions, I can only base my theories on what my tiny little imagination conjures up!
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Post by allergygal on Apr 6, 2010 14:50:17 GMT -5
Since the Engineer had to be in LA by 1963 at the latest, I kind of figured it went without saying... Apparently not. That said if I were going to guess at where the show was going, I think it's far more likely that the Engineer ends up being behind Kaliba. I think Charlie Fischer sets a precedent that some of the people sent back had a single objective and once they reached it, were free to live out their lives in what was left of the future before Judgement Day. Fisher was sent by Skynet, not the resistance, though, so there's really no precedence there. Regardless, the engineer could've been allowed to stay and do whatever in 1963 after completing his mission or maybe he was supposed to return but he went AWOL. Or maybe his next mission was to prevent that mattress factory from becoming automated... and he failed The tricky thing about Kaliba is that someone is reverse-engineering Skynet technology in the present, using Skynet-like methods to do it (the work camp like setting revealed under the town in Desert Cantos, for example). If it's not the Weaverbot, it's someone with knowledge of Future!War but without access to an endoskeleton schematic (see "To the Lighthouse"), which argues against Kaliba being run by another future program/terminator. The only character mentioned in the series with first-hand knowledge of the future and, we assume, the technological skill to create an HK prototype in the present is... The Engineer. Who could possibly be Sarah's father. ;D That doesn't mean it has to be the engineer. I think it's either Zoe's dad or someone we haven't met yet. But I figure there are greys involved and we also have at least one machine (water cooler termie), so that can explain how Kaliba has info from the future. -- *g* I call myself a fan who's just worked 48 hours of nights, I can't even remember my own name! *thinks* Crap! What's my name!? Maybe if you spend your life hiding who you are, you might finally end up fooling yourself. I like the idea that the engineer was a resistance send-back who built a TDE in a bank vault so they'd always have a way to go home. Later, tragically, he got himself quite drunk, fell over, hit his head and died an understated and ultimately, unnoticed death. He left no family to speak of So boring. Soooooo boooooooring. I think Kaliba have T-888 designs, at least (despite the implication in Lighthouse contradicting that.) The Water-cooler T-888 we assumed was one of Kaliba's and there seem to be enough endos being thrown through from the future to suggest that reverse-engineering the design of the machine isn't really going to be an issue. I'd go with Lighthouse on that — they did not have any schematics yet. But they certainly could've gotten them by dismantling pretty water cooler terminator once his mission was done (had he not been destroyed). Since John Henry had the schematics, though, it was easier to grab them from him. But yeah, there's not going to be any issue with reverse-engineering if Skynet wants it done. Then again, if Skynet can just keep sending endos, maybe they don't even need to build them in present day. Oh but coltan is rare in the future and Kaliba has lots. Oh but, they might not have much at all since Weaver blew up their warehouse. heh. This is what's been bugging me for a while. Sarah's so set on collecting and destroying every part of every machine, but it's so easy to send them through the TDE that that seems wasted effort on her part. Stopping J-Day is more about stopping the AI tech being developed and infiltrating the military, and stopping the damn machines coming through in the first place. Because a new endo seems to be sent through every five minutes. It might take someone with the right skills a while to reverse-engineer an endo, but the coltan is readily available, and the prototypes are running loose all over. Stopping the brain of the concept seems to be key. The show was definitely focusing on the AI/brain since The Turk, but Sarah was still worrying about parts because of her past experience with Cyberdyne and Miles Dyson. You can't blame her for that. The end of the world had been set in motion by a damaged chip and a hand. Cameron could've set her straight on that, but instead, she helped Sarah find and destroy parts (when she wasn't busy adding them to her personal collection, I mean). I think we have to assume parts were still important. Weaver had tried to reverse-engineer the technology and failed, but the fact that she tried shows that parts can still play a significant role in advancing Skynet's technology even if not advancing Skynet itself. -- I've never thought Watercooler T was a Kaliba agent - no reason for him to be operating on his own & resupplying from a local gunrunner if he was being controlled by Kaliba. Looking ahead, I see that Littleb has already said pretty much what I'd say. If water cooler terminator wasn't working with Kaliba, then the show was intentionally trying to confuse us: same fake job, same uniform and same target. -- I think the show was setting Kaliba up to be the enemy (which by default would make them Skynet.) How that comes into being is up in the air. I don't think there's a wrong or a right answer to that. The show might have had a plan, it might have been making it up on the fly. I guess it's ours to play around with until they tell us otherwise. Getting back to k8ie's newer theory that the engineer is running Kaliba... Because I believe Kaliba is baby Skynet and man always ends up creating Skynet — creating his own doom, I can see how the theory could fit the usual theme. With T1/T2, Skynet's own terminator parts inadvertently kick start the technology that becomes Skynet. But Skynet wasn't directly building itself; that was just a fortunate series of events. This time, however, Skynet is actively building itself via Kaliba. And I think that's the one-two point — that's why the rules have changed. So the engineer being responsible for Kaliba (being responsible for Skynet) doesn't really work unless Skynet maybe sent a machine or a grey back to somehow convince the engineer (or force the engineer?) to do Skynet's bidding. Considering her was a drunk and a headcase, though, that seems unlikely.
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Post by littleb on Apr 9, 2010 15:00:27 GMT -5
That said if I were going to guess at where the show was going, I think it's far more likely that the Engineer ends up being behind Kaliba. That doesn't mean it has to be the engineer. I think it's either Zoe's dad or someone we haven't met yet. But I figure there are greys involved and we also have at least one machine (water cooler termie), so that can explain how Kaliba has info from the future. There's also the Brother out there somewhere with Cyberdyne code in its make-up. If that AI is anything like the John Henry AI then it has a team working with it, the rest of the team linked to the water-cooler assassins which, following logic, makes them Kaliba. I guess the hows and the whys of that were a story for a future season. Seems Kaliba had a lot more than just a HK prototype and one T-888. Did I miss something about the perceived importance of the Engineer btw? I know K8ie mentioned Zack and Ash, did they say the character would be coming back? Otherwise, I'd be inclined to think he was a one-off name-drop never to return seeing as he was mentioned once in the Pilot and nothing more was heard about him. Ever. I can't even remember my own name! *thinks* Crap! What's my name!? Maybe if you spend your life hiding who you are, you might finally end up fooling yourself. Hee. This is my brain on night shifts. I'd go with Lighthouse on that — they did not have any schematics yet. But they certainly could've gotten them by dismantling pretty water cooler terminator once his mission was done (had he not been destroyed). Since John Henry had the schematics, though, it was easier to grab them from him. But yeah, there's not going to be any issue with reverse-engineering if Skynet wants it done. Naw, I'm not buying that. I still think that PDA "your brother" line was a load of crap. Kaliba have the water-cooler T-888. A Terminator. They're trying to build the AI, they're working on a HK prototype. There's no way they're going to send the T-888 out on some random mission without having a pretty good idea of what makes it tick beforehand. I don't believe that any assassination attempt (certainly not one on a little kid) is going to be worth more to them than learning how to build that machine. So, if they sent it out, then they either have more, or they already know how to build one. Y'know, I always kinda assumed that Kaliba know the end-game. That they know they're trying to kick J-Day off, and they're getting everything in place. And yet, in T2, it comes about because the AI gets out of hand, because it hooks into everything and gets narky. In T2 humans built Skynet, not knowing how it would all end up. In one TSCC future, Andy Goode's Turk started the war because it got angry and scared and he couldn't reassure it. Andy didn't mean to bring about the apocalypse. Both those scenarios point to an unknowing creator. Has that changed? With the HK designs already in the present, and T-888s running around, do Kaliba know exactly what they're doing? Would their J-Day happen by design and not because things get out of hand? I kinda like that idea. It gives a whole new level of evil to the thing. The show was definitely focusing on the AI/brain since The Turk, but Sarah was still worrying about parts because of her past experience with Cyberdyne and Miles Dyson. You can't blame her for that. The end of the world had been set in motion by a damaged chip and a hand. Cameron could've set her straight on that, but instead, she helped Sarah find and destroy parts (when she wasn't busy adding them to her personal collection, I mean). True and I loved the call-back to the movies with the chip and the hand. But the futures are obviously fluid, Complications made a point of proving that and the reverse engineering thing is only one aspect of the problem. I think we have to assume parts were still important. Weaver had tried to reverse-engineer the technology and failed, but the fact that she tried shows that parts can still play a significant role in advancing Skynet's technology even if not advancing Skynet itself. Kaliba were already building with the HK, so the tech is out there and being developed. But I still think the proliferation of T-888s in the present has diluted the "ARRGH, find every part!" issue Looking ahead, I see that Littleb has already said pretty much what I'd say. If water cooler terminator wasn't working with Kaliba, then the show was intentionally trying to confuse us: same fake job, same uniform and same target. He had to be Kaliba's. It's just silly otherwise! Getting back to k8ie's newer theory that the engineer is running Kaliba... But Skynet wasn't directly building itself; that was just a fortunate series of events. This time, however, Skynet is actively building itself via Kaliba. And I think that's the one-two point — that's why the rules have changed. LOL. I didn't even realise you'd kinda answered all my questions up there for me! I do love that idea. I just wondered whether I had the wrong end of the proverbial with it, because it's never really been explicitly stated in the show (but then, Kaliba was only just emerging as a threat when the show ended.) And, if Danny Dyson was a bad guy and working with Kaliba (which is a possibility) then he certainly knows how it all turns out...
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Post by MetalMint on Apr 9, 2010 23:44:48 GMT -5
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Post by allergygal on Apr 13, 2010 1:49:03 GMT -5
LOL. I've never seen that before. There's also the Brother out there somewhere with Cyberdyne code in its make-up. If that AI is anything like the John Henry AI then it has a team working with it, the rest of the team linked to the water-cooler assassins which, following logic, makes them Kaliba. I guess the hows and the whys of that were a story for a future season. Seems Kaliba had a lot more than just a HK prototype and one T-888. I certainly hope Kaliba had more than one drone. If the whole point of that super secret factory was just to make a missile to try to destroy Zeira Corp, then... uh... Did I miss something about the perceived importance of the Engineer btw? I know K8ie mentioned Zack and Ash, did they say the character would be coming back? Otherwise, I'd be inclined to think he was a one-off name-drop never to return seeing as he was mentioned once in the Pilot and nothing more was heard about him. Ever. I think Zack posted before about them wanting to work the engineer into the story at some point. There was nothing specific mentioned, though. It could be that they'd actually laid groundwork for it to be Sarah's dad and just didn't know when they might be able to work a reveal into the story. Or maybe they had nothing planned and just hoped to eventually come up with something for the engineer. I Don't know. Naw, I'm not buying that. I still think that PDA "your brother" line was a load of crap. Kaliba have the water-cooler T-888. A Terminator. They're trying to build the AI, they're working on a HK prototype. There's no way they're going to send the T-888 out on some random mission without having a pretty good idea of what makes it tick beforehand. I don't believe that any assassination attempt (certainly not one on a little kid) is going to be worth more to them than learning how to build that machine. So, if they sent it out, then they either have more, or they already know how to build one. But why grab endo schematics from John Henry if they already had them? We actually see the diagram of JH's endo pop up on his screen when he's getting attacked by the worm. So when the AI tells his goon that he got the info about how to pull a chip from his brother. I don't see any reason to doubt that. The only thing that doesn't make sense is why the AI didn't just get that info from the water cooler terminator. And I assume that's where k8ie gets the idea that the water cooler terminator wasn't actually with Kaliba. I'll agree there's a logic gap there, but I think it's because we're missing a piece of the puzzle. Maybe Kaliba's goons are so inept that Skynet send water cooler terminator back to do the job of killing Savannah. He arrives naked, goes to find a Kaliba goon, takes his clothes and his water delivery truck and head on over to Weaver's house. That would make him working with Kaliba without really being with Kaliba — sort of merging both theories. I don't know if that works, but thought I'd throw it out there. -- I really do like the idea of the engineer being Sarah's dad, but I think making him part of Kaliba might be too much (especially if Danny Dyson is with Kaliba, which seems likely). One way that I could see him involved, though, is in providing time travel to Kaliba. We have no reason to believe Kaliba has the ability to jump ahead, but I'd imagine that, like Weaver, they'd want it at some point. Since Skynet invented time travel, I'd think it could send it's own machine-engineer back to build a TDE for Kaliba more easily than having to track down some resistance dude from 46 years ago (assuming Skynet even knew about him). I think it would be cooler if Derek arrives from the future with the mission to protect Savannah or something. While he's in 2009, Sarah runs into him, they join forces, there's some chi-chat about this weird naked kid named John Connor, etc. Eventually, Cameron, Sarah and Derek track down the engineer to see about getting Derek sent back home. Sarah finds out the truth about her dad, tells him about his grandson and he decides he needs to go smack some sense into that boy and send him home. The engineer ditches Derek and takes the time machine to the future by himself. ;D
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Post by littleb on Apr 14, 2010 3:30:30 GMT -5
I certainly hope Kaliba had more than one drone. If the whole point of that super secret factory was just to make a missile to try to destroy Zeira Corp, then... uh... LOL. Y'know, Kaliba are a lot more intelligent in my head. I try not to think of them being responsible for that drone attack, because it was simply ridiculous. Actually, I try not to think about BTR after the elevator scene, so it's easy for me to forget about them launching a drone ineptly through a window. I think Zack posted before about them wanting to work the engineer into the story at some point. There was nothing specific mentioned, though. It could be that they'd actually laid groundwork for it to be Sarah's dad and just didn't know when they might be able to work a reveal into the story. Or maybe they had nothing planned and just hoped to eventually come up with something for the engineer. I Don't know. I figured he might have said something. I'm not sure they'd have linked him to Sarah, it just seems far too contrived to me. I kinda like the idea of him being either a grey or someone who could help the Connors out. Someone who'd lived with the knowledge of J-Day (like Sarah) and was a bit of a kindred spirit. She needs some support! Naw, I'm not buying that. I still think that PDA "your brother" line was a load of crap. So, if they sent it out, then they either have more, or they already know how to build one. But why grab endo schematics from John Henry if they already had them? We actually see the diagram of JH's endo pop up on his screen when he's getting attacked by the worm. So when the AI tells his goon that he got the info about how to pull a chip from his brother. I don't see any reason to doubt that. Oh they definitely used the schematic from JH and made it sound like it was all new to them, and consequently, it makes no sense. I still think the line was an idiotic way just to mention the brother angle. It was quick, easy and they shoved it in there (needlessly really) trying to be clever. I always thought the line stood out like a sore thumb, it was so poorly written and that was before I even thought the lack of logic through. Hell, maybe the Kaliba techs have the Endo schematic and their AI had never been privy to it till he hacked JH. See how well I can fanw*nk?! I can believe the goons had never seen the info, but it's harder to believe the AI wouldn't have either. The only thing that doesn't make sense is why the AI didn't just get that info from the water cooler terminator. And I assume that's where k8ie gets the idea that the water cooler terminator wasn't actually with Kaliba. I'll agree there's a logic gap there, but I think it's because we're missing a piece of the puzzle. I'm not going to give them that much credit. I think it was a SNAFU and a lazy one at that. The water cooler T was so obviously supposed to be a part of the same hit, there's no way I can fanw*nk myself past that... although I see you've tried Maybe Kaliba's goons are so inept that Skynet send water cooler terminator back to do the job of killing Savannah. He arrives naked, goes to find a Kaliba goon, takes his clothes and his water delivery truck and head on over to Weaver's house. That would make him working with Kaliba without really being with Kaliba — sort of merging both theories. I don't know if that works, but thought I'd throw it out there. Hmmm. Personally, it doesn't work for me, but it was a nice try I prefer the thought of an organised, timed attack. It makes Kaliba a threat as opposed to a bungling, half-assed operation. And I would so like them to be a threat. If they're Skynet to be, then they should be bloody dangerous. We have no reason to believe Kaliba has the ability to jump ahead, but I'd imagine that, like Weaver, they'd want it at some point. Since Skynet invented time travel, I'd think it could send it's own machine-engineer back to build a TDE for Kaliba more easily than having to track down some resistance dude from 46 years ago (assuming Skynet even knew about him). Definitely. I think they'd have engineers working on that as a priority. Think what they could do with two-way travel, actual communication with the future. "We'd like the schematics for X please." "Okay, coming through." No problemo. War's won. I think it would be cooler if Derek arrives from the future with the mission to protect Savannah or something. While he's in 2009, Sarah runs into him, they join forces, there's some chi-chat about this weird naked kid named John Connor, etc. Eventually, Cameron, Sarah and Derek track down the engineer to see about getting Derek sent back home. Sarah finds out the truth about her dad, tells him about his grandson and he decides he needs to go smack some sense into that boy and send him home. The engineer ditches Derek and takes the time machine to the future by himself. ;D I think Savannah would still be a target and I love the idea of Derek coming back to protect her. Yum, actually I just love the idea of Derek coming back and working with Sarah ;D LOL at your working the engineer so prettily into it all. I like him being there, just not so much him being Sarah's dad. I'm also thinking that, if Sarah's dad were alive, she'd have mentioned him within the show. I just always assumed he was dead before T1. She makes a point of sending her mother to safety and never mentions her father. I assumed, even if they were divorced, that she'd contact him because he'd be in as much danger as her mum.
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Post by allergygal on Apr 16, 2010 4:18:37 GMT -5
I hadn't watched that deleted scene from Demon Hand in ages, so I gave it another look recently. Something I did not remember was Sarah saying that her friend Janie's dad was "an engineer or something." Ha! That doesn't make me think her friend's dad was the engineer, but it was amusing. The context of the story is that Janie's family always had more money (since her dad was an engineer). So I even think that could actually be admitted into evidence for Sarah's dad being the engineer — wouldn't it be ironic if Sarah's dad was actually a brilliant TDE and plasma rifle making engineer, yet they were broke all the time because he took a lowly job stuffing mattresses? Of course, we don't know if Sarah's even being honest with Silberman. Telling him a story about her dad losing his job to factory automation would be a clever way to create a cause for her acute dislike for anything mechanical other than kRaZee belief in killer robots from the future. If Silberman latched onto that, he might think he could help Sarah deal with her childhood issues and she could pretend to be cured. -- Definitely. I think they'd have engineers working on that as a priority. Think what they could do with two-way travel, actual communication with the future. "We'd like the schematics for X please." "Okay, coming through." No problemo. War's won. It makes total sense that Skynet would be setting up TDE in the present just like the resistance had it set up... and Weaver had it set up. Good thing the show is so sparing with the time travel. At least we haven't actually had any back and forth traffic flow, though (that we know of). I guess John will end up being the first character to jump two directions. I think Savannah would still be a target and I love the idea of Derek coming back to protect her. Yum, actually I just love the idea of Derek coming back and working with Sarah ;D LOL at your working the engineer so prettily into it all. I like him being there, just not so much him being Sarah's dad. I'm also thinking that, if Sarah's dad were alive, she'd have mentioned him within the show. I just always assumed he was dead before T1. She makes a point of sending her mother to safety and never mentions her father. I assumed, even if they were divorced, that she'd contact him because he'd be in as much danger as her mum. Well, Sarah's dad ran off an abandoned the family so she wouldn't have even known where to find him. I don't get the feeling she thought he was worth tracking down either.
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Post by littleb on Apr 20, 2010 8:29:51 GMT -5
I hadn't watched that deleted scene from Demon Hand in ages, so I gave it another look recently. Something I did not remember was Sarah saying that her friend Janie's dad was "an engineer or something." Ha! That doesn't make me think her friend's dad was the engineer, but it was amusing. What, no crack!theory for that one?! I'd not seen that scene in ages, not until this thread sparked off. I think it's the only time we really see Sarah talking about her own family (aside from the v/o in The Tower) and on both occasions the focus is her father. Think the girl might have some abandonment issues? I guess there's not much money to be made in making guns that take eight months to pull the parts together. Kinda slow turn over in profits there I think it's the truth, I don't think the scene gives us any reason to doubt her (unlike T2 where her motives for lying are clearly laid out around her dream-incited need to protect John.) Plus, the story itself makes her kick-off, so probably not the best way to prove her sanity! Seems any mention of machines/mechanics and killer robots have the same lighting the touch paper kinda effect on her. Definitely. I think they'd have engineers working on that as a priority. Think what they could do with two-way travel, actual communication with the future. "We'd like the schematics for X please." "Okay, coming through." No problemo. War's won. It makes total sense that Skynet would be setting up TDE in the present just like the resistance had it set up... and Weaver had it set up. Good thing the show is so sparing with the time travel. At least we haven't actually had any back and forth traffic flow, though (that we know of). I guess John will end up being the first character to jump two directions. The fact that Weaver had a method to jump back irritated me because it made it all so damn simple. If she can jump back and (obviously) jump forward then why the need to build John Henry from scratch? Surely there would've been a more efficient way to achieve her goals. She needed a T-888 to play around with? Well, there are plenty knocking about in the future if only she had a way to get back... oh wait, there she has that too *head-desk* That made about as much sense as the drone attack. Only less. I'm also thinking that, if Sarah's dad were alive, she'd have mentioned him within the show. I just always assumed he was dead before T1. She makes a point of sending her mother to safety and never mentions her father. I assumed, even if they were divorced, that she'd contact him because he'd be in as much danger as her mum. Well, Sarah's dad ran off an abandoned the family so she wouldn't have even known where to find him. I don't get the feeling she thought he was worth tracking down either. Possibly not, but she seems to have something of an affinity for battle-scarred war vets and blood is thicker than fake organic compound blood so I would've thought she'd at least have tried to warn daddy dearest in T1 if he was still alive. Or at least paid lip service to the notion.
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Post by allergygal on Apr 26, 2010 2:43:22 GMT -5
What, no crack!theory for that one?! I'd not seen that scene in ages, not until this thread sparked off. I think it's the only time we really see Sarah talking about her own family (aside from the v/o in The Tower) and on both occasions the focus is her father. Think the girl might have some abandonment issues? I'm holding my stance that it reinforces the idea that Sarah's dad was the engineer (ie. I'm sticking with the crack theory that started this thread). I guess there's not much money to be made in making guns that take eight months to pull the parts together. Kinda slow turn over in profits there Hey, once he had the prototype assembled, he could sell it to the military and make a bundle! Might defeat the purpose, though. I think it's the truth, I don't think the scene gives us any reason to doubt her (unlike T2 where her motives for lying are clearly laid out around her dream-incited need to protect John.) Plus, the story itself makes her kick-off, so probably not the best way to prove her sanity! Seems any mention of machines/mechanics and killer robots have the same lighting the touch paper kinda effect on her. Hmm. Good point. Signing away her parental rights is in the same time frame as T2 Pescadero stuff and she's got long hair for that. So I guess the other stuff would've had to be much earlier (shorter hair), making it more likely to be truth rather than manipulation. The fact that Weaver had a method to jump back irritated me because it made it all so damn simple. If she can jump back and (obviously) jump forward then why the need to build John Henry from scratch? Surely there would've been a more efficient way to achieve her goals. She needed a T-888 to play around with? Well, there are plenty knocking about in the future if only she had a way to get back... oh wait, there she has that too *head-desk* That made about as much sense as the drone attack. Only less.LOL. Let's just hope there are crucial bits of the story missing because there's no reason why Kaliba couldn't get an endo and chip from the future either. Why all this wrangling for parts in the present? Unless k8ie's right and Kaliba has no connection to Skynet. But that would make the story make even less sense: If Weaver wasn't building Skynet and Kaliba had nothing to do with Skynet, then what was Sarah even doing in 2007? Maybe Cameron was working for Skynet all along and this was a convoluted plan to "kill" John Connor... that worked. If Jesse can mess with John's love life to affect the war, then why not Skynet? Possibly not, but she seems to have something of an affinity for battle-scarred war vets and blood is thicker than fake organic compound blood so I would've thought she'd at least have tried to warn daddy dearest in T1 if he was still alive. Or at least paid lip service to the notion. If he was some loser who ditched the family when she was like 13 or something, why would she go try to find him? Anyway, finding him is what would put him in danger. Being so far removed from her life, he wouldn't even be on Skynet's radar. Well, until they found out he was The Resistance's super engineer, that is!
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Post by littleb on Apr 28, 2010 1:45:28 GMT -5
I'm holding my stance that it reinforces the idea that Sarah's dad was the engineer (ie. I'm sticking with the crack theory that started this thread). Okay then, I will hold my position of thinking you're nuts Hey, once he had the prototype assembled, he could sell it to the military and make a bundle! Might defeat the purpose, though. Yes, I think selling futuristic prototypes to the military would be quite a bad move for someone supposedly working on the side of the resistance! Plus, the story itself makes her kick-off, so probably not the best way to prove her sanity! Seems any mention of machines/mechanics and killer robots have the same lighting the touch paper kinda effect on her. Hmm. Good point. Signing away her parental rights is in the same time frame as T2 Pescadero stuff and she's got long hair for that. So I guess the other stuff would've had to be much earlier (shorter hair), making it more likely to be truth rather than manipulation. *laughs* I never even twigged with the hair, I just never thought she was lying! So, um, thanks for backing up my instinct with some actual evidence *g* I guess the manipulation aspect came later, when she knew how to play the game better. Wasn't there a mention of her having behaved herself and denied the J-Day story for 6 months or so in T2? That must have taken some effort. Well, there are plenty knocking about in the future if only she had a way to get back... oh wait, there she has that too *head-desk* That made about as much sense as the drone attack. Only less. LOL. Let's just hope there are crucial bits of the story missing because there's no reason why Kaliba couldn't get an endo and chip from the future either. Why all this wrangling for parts in the present? Unless k8ie's right and Kaliba has no connection to Skynet. But that would make the story make even less sense: I think the show was setting Kaliba up as Skynet and Weaver as an anti-Skynet (whatever her reasons.) I'm not sure that, two seasons in, they would suddenly roll another Big Bad out into the mix. We don't really know what stage Kaliba was up to, they had metal, they had endos and a way to send things back and they were working on a drone using Skynet's techniques (humans spying on humans.) Oh and they had The Brother - with Dyson's code base - so an AI was in there somewhere as well. They were looking pretty good as the main enemy. Because, hopefully, the major evil, the massive intelligence that brings around the extermination of humanity, would have a slightly better way of offing John Connor than getting him all pissy about a woman! But then, this is the same major evil that chucked an unarmed HK through a window to kill a T-1000. So *sigh*. I think I'm gonna blame that one on Friedman needing a decent stunt for his finale. And when I say "decent" I mean, slightly shoddy looking, because seriously, it wasn't the best effects work ever. I would've thought she'd at least have tried to warn daddy dearest in T1 if he was still alive. Or at least paid lip service to the notion. If he was some loser who ditched the family when she was like 13 or something, why would she go try to find him? Anyway, finding him is what would put him in danger. Being so far removed from her life, he wouldn't even be on Skynet's radar. Well, until they found out he was The Resistance's super engineer, that is! Heh, you're not letting that one slip any time soon, are ya? True though about the act of finding him putting him in danger. Her V/O in Tower, it's kinda sympathetic towards him. She's not condemning him, she's giving his reasons for breaking. And at the end, she likens herself to him. Doesn't sound like a daughter who hates her dad, sounds like someone with an affinity for what he went through.
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Post by allergygal on May 26, 2010 21:15:54 GMT -5
"They will kill you and your friends and your family. And you mother and your father and Kyle Reese and your son..." - Demon Hand
Hmm. In the cut scene she says one morning she woke up and her dad was gone but in the Pescadero footage Ellison watches in the episode, Sarah implies her father was killed by the terminator. So which is it?! I guess neither scenario precludes him from being the engineer but if he's dead there can't be any additional story for him. That's no fun.
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Post by virus on Mar 29, 2011 17:59:43 GMT -5
I prefer the idea that before sarah, her family was of little importance as it makes her a better character to have come from normality to the strength she is now known for, and conflicts with John who has had very important family and help yet during the earlier episodes has not been able to prove his strengths.
I do not think her father was the engineer, however with the engineer themselves, I think that if the only consequence of him happened in Pilot then this would be a waste. I doubt that the engineer did nothing after completing the bank vault to help the war effort and if so then the reason why he didn't live to do any more is probably a story that could be worth hearing.
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