Alexis
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Post by Alexis on Dec 21, 2008 1:33:04 GMT -5
In a timeline where John isn't the leader of the resistance, Skynet would have no need to send a terminator to kill Sarah in 1984 and John would have no need to send Kyle. But that's really kind of irrelevant because if John isn't the leader, he's probably not the guy deciding who gets sent where anyway. And if John had never been the leader in this timeline, no one in the future would know any different. So I think for any sort of "OMG John's not the leader anymore" drama to play out, there would have to be a situation where John had been the leader but was killed or overthrown by another faction. Just imagine a future where John Connor has been replaced. He’s no-one and he knows that he should have been the savior of humanity. The war is getting worse and he knows things shouldn’t have been like this. He’s been replaced. But he’s still alive and he’s still John Connor!! So, don’t you think he would try to do something about it? Don’t you think he would try to re-group his forces and give a counter-attack to defeat those who took his place? I believe in John Connor and the teachings of his mother, so I know he would find the way to organize a counter-hegemonic group inside the resistance (just like the Jesse’s group is doing now) and get Kyle Reese involved to send him back with a new mission: to stop whatever happened before it happened, to ensure John Connor’s leadership by doing so, and to save the mankind as a result. That’s a BIG mission. And a big mission requires a big man. John’s natural choice would be his father: Kyle Reese Now, as regards having the time machine resource as a ‘sine qua non’ condition for the future dethroned John to send back Good Wound’s Kyle, we do know that Jesse time-traveled without John’s permission. So, there might be 2 possibilities: 1- Jesse’s group made their own time machine. 2- Jesse’s group have infiltrated and used John’s time machine secretively. Therefore, future dethroned John Connor might use his own “renegade technicians” of his own "counter-hegemonic resistance" to build his own time machine OR John Connor’s "counter-hegemonic resistance" might infiltrate and use the official resistance’s time machine secretively Er… Too far? Maybe… Or maybe not... Who knows? LOL Another possibility: If John Connor wasn’t only dethroned but killed and his uncle were alive (maybe even took his place as the leader), don’t you think that in a certain point in the future Derek would realize that they need John as they cannot stop the machines without him? Wouldn’t Derek send someone back to prevent this major disaster? Wouldn’t he send his own brother? (in this case things get more complicated because we would have 2 Dereks in that hypothetic future, so that’s why I prefer the first hypothesis of the surviving dethroned John, because Derek's one would be just too complicated to be explained to the audience - Taking into account that I can barely understand myself... LOL ). And since the previews seem to indicate Kyle showing up in the very next episode (we're assuming for real in these scenarios), I wouldn't expect there to be any bad news about future!John yet for him to be the bearer of. That’s because the bad things that would cause big trouble in the future didn’t happen yet as Kyle came back to stop those presumably terrible events (surely we could have some cool “flashbacks” on The Good Wound which would explain us the whole story of WHY is Kyle here, WHO sent him back and WHAT the purpose of his mission is ). As I told you before, maybe it’s too crazy… Or maybe not… Everything’s possible… ;D That’s what makes all this SO exciting!!! (…) why would Kyle show up at a hospital where Sarah is? You'd think he'd show up at the Connor house to find Sarah and John (I think we have to assume John doesn't know where Sarah is at this point in time). I assume that John, sooner or later, will know where Sarah exactly was (Independently his mother ended up alive or dead – I dismiss the second possibility because I think that might precisely be what Kyle would be trying to prevent). So that’s why Kyle would have been sent to the desert: to save Sarah or to help Sarah to stop something that’s going to take place precisely in that location Eh. It's not the same. Sarah's not the innocent girl she was in 1984. She's older, she's hard, she's kind of crazy and she already knows the whole story. Maybe this Kyle would still have fallen in love with her photo, but I don't see Sarah falling for him. She's in love with the memory of 1984 Kyle, not a version of Kyle who doesn't know her. But if they do go that way with it and Kyle really is there... we better at least get one hell of a kiss out of it before he dies again. Actually, even if he's a dream we better get that or I'll have to break out the torches and pitchforks. ;D LOL Yeah! I’m with you. Motion approved!! ;D
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wb5
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Post by wb5 on Dec 21, 2008 8:24:37 GMT -5
However, in the promo, we still see that view from the air as something recedes from them - which I'm betting is Kyle Reese either going to his original destiny in T-1 or returning to the future, or going somewhere else in that Drone. That drone just might turn out to be a mobile time machine. Now that's an idea that seem to make more sense than it being a HK prototype (since it doesn't look much like HKs at all). It certainly looks weird and futurustic enough to be a time machine. However, the time machines in the future require considerable power, so this one would have to be a very efficient one to be able to operate (allthough the UFO has its own engines, it doesn't look to equal the output of 6 or so B747 engines). And if we assume some part of the resistance is behind the UFO's, then there is still the issue of the murders to ponder. The woman therapist that was killed for example, seemed entirely innocent, so the resistance would have absolutely no scruples in this case. It's possible, but it would be dark - a bit like Jesse. Or Cameron, when she reverts to killing mode.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Dec 21, 2008 23:16:29 GMT -5
Yes, the murders are a problem, BUT we don't know that the warehouse is associated with the vehicle Sarah saw. So it's quite possible that the warehouse is involved in building HK's and/or Terminator metal, while the vehicle is part of the Resistance counter.
My suggestion is sort of out there, so it's just a thought.
Another possibility is that after Kyle and the Connors deal with whatever happens, that Kyle ends up seizing a Skynet HK and taking off with it, maybe to destroy it. That would explain the scene, too.
Or maybe the vehicle is the "Version 2.0" of the time machine. Maybe it's more efficient, so it doesn't need the full power of the time machine at John's HQ. Maybe it can only send one person through time, and not a team like Derek's.
I just think it will be a let down if the machine Sarah saw at the end is just a hallucination. And if it isn't a hallucination, then either Sarah is in MORE trouble or the machine is there to help her. In the latter case, Kyle's presence in the show would indicate some connection to the machine.
Ah, it's all pure speculation. I wish we had some spoiler script fragments to work from.
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Alexis
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Post by Alexis on Dec 25, 2008 15:35:57 GMT -5
Here are some reflections on the capital importance of the writers “playing safe” with the fictional rules of time travel.
If we found out the logical rules that operate inside and underneath the franchise’s general plot (which implies, like every rules in general, a series of restrictions and possibilities), then we’ll be able to “predict” an acceptable number of possible paths for the writers to take within this specific range of restrictions and possibilities.
In other words, it’s all about the rules that make this particular fictional world works. Rules which once created cannot be infringed if the writers want to preserve the “fictional pact” established with the audience as a condition for our “suspension of disbelief”, which is a “sine-qua-non” condition for every fictional story to work.
The mechanism is the same in literature, movies and TV series.
Therefore, if the writers changed that basic rules of the fictional world and broke the “fictional pact”, that would make the audience feel “uneasy”, “uncomfortable” and even heavily confused about the story, and I think that that would be a very bad idea.
That’s exactly why I’ve been concerned about Kyle’s time travel issue. And also that’s why I’m trying to find, by all means, every possible/suitable explanation that might fit the internal logic of the rules of time travel as a very important part of the internal logic of the whole franchise plot.
All things considered, I think that having Kyle Reese back might be a dangerous move, but it wouldn’t be an internal contradiction at all, if the writers find the way of “playing safe” with the rules and not against them.
The safest way of “playing safe” with the rules, would be that Kyle turned out being another one of Sarah’s dreams/hallucinations. But, let’s face it, that wouldn’t be as cool as if he was real, don’t you think? ;D
_________________________
Note: The concepts of “fictional pact” and “suspension of disbelief” are from a very interesting author, Umberto Eco, who I recommend you to read for having a really cool insight into semiotics.
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Post by Derek Reese on Dec 25, 2008 15:44:28 GMT -5
Here are some reflections on the capital importance of the writers “playing safe” with the fictional rules of time travel. If we found out the logical rules that operate inside and underneath the franchise’s general plot (which implies, like every rules in general, a series of restrictions and possibilities), then we’ll be able to “predict” an acceptable number of possible paths for the writers to take within this specific range of restrictions and possibilities. In other words, it’s all about the rules that make this particular fictional world works. Rules which once created cannot be infringed if the writers want to preserve the “fictional pact” established with the audience as a condition for our “suspension of disbelief”, which is a “sine-qua-non” condition for every fictional story to work. The mechanism is the same in literature, movies and TV series. Therefore, if the writers changed that basic rules of the fictional world and broke the “fictional pact”, that would make the audience feel “uneasy”, “uncomfortable” and even heavily confused about the story, and I think that that would be a very bad idea. That’s exactly why I’ve been concerned about Kyle’s time travel issue. And also that’s why I’m trying to find, by all means, every possible/suitable explanation that might fit the internal logic of the rules of time travel as a very important part of the internal logic of the whole franchise plot. All things considered, I think that having Kyle Reese back might be a dangerous move, but it wouldn’t be an internal contradiction at all, if the writers find the way of “playing safe” with the rules and not against them. The safest way of “playing safe” with the rules, would be that Kyle turned out being another one of Sarah’s dreams/hallucinations. But, let’s face it, that wouldn’t be as cool as if he was real, don’t you think? ;D _________________________ Note: The concepts of “fictional pact” and “suspension of disbelief” are from a very interesting author, Umberto Eco, who I recommend you to read for having a really cool insight into semiotics. Karma! That's another big issue, that has really concerned me with the way that the writers have handled the series. Whereas the movies had it clearly defined and straightforward. Here it seems to be a plot device that allows just about all of the cast come back from the future or any Resistance Fighter or Terminator to get the job done.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Dec 25, 2008 18:34:44 GMT -5
Having just seen the deleted dream scene from T-2, and having seen other deleted scenes from T-1 and T-2 which VERY closely mirror developments in the series, I now believe that what we will see with Kyle in the series is the playing out of the deleted dream scene in T-1.
Cameron dumped that scene because he didn't want Sarah to seem like the "weak" Sarah from T-1 who needed Kyle to put her back on track. But in the series, since Sarah IS off track, now would be the perfect time to do a version of that dream scene that snaps her out of her insanity and puts her back on track towards hunting down Skynet.
And as it turns out from another deleted scenes in T-1, it was always SARAH who initiated that goal in the first place. Kyle was never up for that goal until Sarah convinced him to go for it. But now it is Sarah who has for 13 episodes completely forgotten about that goal with her obsessions with the Blood Wall and the three dots. So she needs Kyle to come back in a dream and straighten her out.
If so, then I can forgive the first 13 episodes somewhat. If the back nine reverse the first 13 episodes and get the show back on track and clean up the characterization and in general START MAKING SENSE, then all is forgiven and they have a shot at a third season.
If they continue in the back nine as they have in the first 13 episode, these next nine episodes are probably the last we're going to see.
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Post by Derek Reese on Dec 25, 2008 18:39:57 GMT -5
And as it turns out from another deleted scenes in T-1, it was always SARAH who initiated that goal in the first place. Kyle was never up for that goal until Sarah convinced him to go for it. But now it is Sarah who has for 13 episodes completely forgotten about that goal with her obsessions with the Blood Wall and the three dots. So she needs Kyle to come back in a dream and straighten her out. If so, then I can forgive the first 13 episodes somewhat. If the back nine reverse the first 13 episodes and get the show back on track and clean up the characterization and in general START MAKING SENSE, then all is forgiven and they have a shot at a third season. If they continue in the back nine as they have in the first 13 episode, these next nine episodes are probably the last we're going to see. Hoping the same, when it comes down to it.
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Alexis
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Post by Alexis on Dec 25, 2008 21:49:21 GMT -5
Here are some reflections on the capital importance of the writers “playing safe” with the fictional rules of time travel. If we found out the logical rules that operate inside and underneath the franchise’s general plot (which implies, like every rules in general, a series of restrictions and possibilities), then we’ll be able to “predict” an acceptable number of possible paths for the writers to take within this specific range of restrictions and possibilities. In other words, it’s all about the rules that make this particular fictional world works. Rules which once created cannot be infringed if the writers want to preserve the “fictional pact” established with the audience as a condition for our “suspension of disbelief”, which is a “sine-qua-non” condition for every fictional story to work. The mechanism is the same in literature, movies and TV series. Therefore, if the writers changed that basic rules of the fictional world and broke the “fictional pact”, that would make the audience feel “uneasy”, “uncomfortable” and even heavily confused about the story, and I think that that would be a very bad idea. That’s exactly why I’ve been concerned about Kyle’s time travel issue. And also that’s why I’m trying to find, by all means, every possible/suitable explanation that might fit the internal logic of the rules of time travel as a very important part of the internal logic of the whole franchise plot. All things considered, I think that having Kyle Reese back might be a dangerous move, but it wouldn’t be an internal contradiction at all, if the writers find the way of “playing safe” with the rules and not against them. The safest way of “playing safe” with the rules, would be that Kyle turned out being another one of Sarah’s dreams/hallucinations. But, let’s face it, that wouldn’t be as cool as if he was real, don’t you think? ;D _________________________ Note: The concepts of “fictional pact” and “suspension of disbelief” are from a very interesting author, Umberto Eco, who I recommend you to read for having a really cool insight into semiotics. Karma! That's another big issue, that has really concerned me with the way that the writers have handled the series. Whereas the movies had it clearly defined and straightforward. Here it seems to be a plot device that allows just about all of the cast come back from the future or any Resistance Fighter or Terminator to get the job done. Thanks! That's right. I think it's a pretty dangerous thing to do, especially when you're hanging on the balance. So I hope the writers can handle it right. If so, we might have a third season!!
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Post by Derek Reese on Dec 25, 2008 22:42:20 GMT -5
Despite the issues presented thus far honestly I'm holding out hope, that the series will get a third year. So that they can explore the Terminatorverse further. I do like some of the ideas that they've presented thus far and explored issues of Terminators and Resistance Fighters of the Weeks aside. The potential is still there to really get that much deeper into the dynamic of the future ahead and the Connor's themselves.
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Alexis
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Post by Alexis on Dec 25, 2008 23:51:35 GMT -5
Despite the issues presented thus far honestly I'm holding out hope, that the series will get a third year. So that they can explore the Terminatorverse further. I do like some of the ideas that they've presented thus far and explored issues of Terminators and Resistance Fighters of the Weeks aside. The potential is still there to really get that much deeper into the dynamic of the future ahead and the Connor's themselves. I share your hope. I really hope we get a third season. And I also believe that this would be a great oportunity to develop all that tremendous potential
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DEM
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Post by DEM on Dec 26, 2008 13:36:32 GMT -5
I tend to think the Terminator stories operate with sort of a blend of multi-verse/single-verse theory. There is no fate, so the future is changeable. There doesn't have to be a judgement day, there doesn't have to be a war and John doesn't have to be the leader. But if there is a judgement day and a war against machines, then John does have to lead it in order for mankind to survive. I don't follow. A. There is no fate (predetermined set of future events). B. Judgement Day is a future event. C. Therefore, Judgement Day does not have to happen. So far, so good. However: X. Humans will only survive post-JD if John leads them. "X" does not fit with "A". It says that something in the future is set and predetermined. (Yeah, I know, that's the premise of the entire franchise, and that's why, in general, I choose not to examine it too closely to cover my ears and ululate when the show mentions it. ) However, in the promo, we still see that view from the air as something recedes from them.... That drone just might turn out to be a mobile time machine. I think I just vomited a little baby gee sauce. Please, no. You think the Grand Central trend is bad now? Having just seen the deleted dream scene from T-2.... Cameron dumped that scene because he didn't want Sarah to seem like the "weak" Sarah from T-1 who needed Kyle to put her back on track. But in the series, since Sarah IS off track, now would be the perfect time to do a version of that dream scene that snaps her out of her insanity and puts her back on track towards hunting down Skynet. In T2, Sarah Connor had a medication- and despair-induced dream of Kyle. The scene was designed to renew SC's resolve -- even though we had no indication from the events just preceding it that she had lost all hope, but whatev (but, yay, that's why it was cut). T:SCC has not established that SC is "off track". To the contrary, Sarah has all but explicitly stated that she believes every last bit of that list is related to the mission of stopping Skynet. Now, viewers may have their own beliefs about whether a) the three dots/circles are meaningful or b) investigating the list is relevant to the main mission, but the show has been very clear that the list (as a whole) is relevant. It's playing cute with regard to "a". When it comes right down to it, I don't believe that thing in the desert was a meaningless hallucination, simply because that would be a waste of valuable production dollars. (and from a dramatic POV, I still hold onto a glimmer of hope that the writers would not damage their title-character so badly by writing a multi-ep arc in which she chases cybernetic windmills.) Getting back to Kyle: I don't have a firm opinion one way or the other regarding his realness. What I do think, though, is that Kyle will be used (at least partly) in the same way he was in the "Ultimate Edition" of T2: As SC's recharger when she's feeling alone and like a failure. Good Wound-Kyle will reflect the same mindset that led to the Demon Hand adoption story. That would make me... not feel good. OTOH, maybe I'll get a Friday the 13th gift: Kyle will be not at all like deleted-scene-Kyle or Demon Hand-adoption Sarah. That would make me feel happy.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Dec 26, 2008 22:04:10 GMT -5
I disagree that the "Blood Wall" has been primarily about stopping Skynet. Certainly the Ferguson entry was - and the Connors ignored the followup! How do you explain that? Sarah's obsessions and inability to even talk to Ferguson leads her to drop him as significant? But three bloody dots and some dreams suddenly mean more than a real guy who actually had a Terminator come back to protect him?
Sorry - seriously inconsistent behavior on Sarah's part. No excuse for it whatsoever.
Meanwhile, the "Greenway" entry, "P. Alto" entry, the "Alpine Fields" entry, the "Stark" entry - no evidence that any of those had anything to do with directly stopping Skynet - although especially the nuclear plant issue COULD have led them DIRECTLY to Zeira Corp and Weaver - except again they dropped the ball.
But three dots are more important?
Nope.
As for Kyle, if Kyle comes back, whether in a dream or for real (and I agree, I wouldn't be happy about a mobile time machine either!), he needs to snap Sarah out of her obsessions and get her back on track in terms of stopping Skynet.
In the deleted scene from T-1, it was SARAH who convinced KYLE to track down Cyberdyne and stop Skynet from being created. In T-2, it was SARAH who initiated that same plan of action. That's the Sarah I want to see - not the one who's totally forgotten that idea.
Having her obsession lead to a real Skynet plot - especially if that plot is NOT directly involved with Skynet coming into existence - will just emphasize the total opposite direction season two has taken from season one and the franchise movies. And if that's what the writers want to do, well, the payoff had better be pretty amazing - and more so than just re-introducing Kyle as a character.
I'm hoping the presence of Walsh in the upcoming episodes indicates that the writers have dropped that stuff and will return to Job One: stopping Skynet from existing. The Jesse subplot is fine, they can keep that going on. I don't have any objection to the occasional standalone, or subplots, or whatever.
Just don't totally forget the main point of the concept for another THIRTEEN EPISODES!
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Post by masterz1337 on Jan 10, 2009 11:24:18 GMT -5
Despite the issues presented thus far honestly I'm holding out hope, that the series will get a third year. So that they can explore the Terminatorverse further. I do like some of the ideas that they've presented thus far and explored issues of Terminators and Resistance Fighters of the Weeks aside. The potential is still there to really get that much deeper into the dynamic of the future ahead and the Connor's themselves. I share your hope. I really hope we get a third season. And I also believe that this would be a great oportunity to develop all that tremendous potential I actually think a third season is more likely to be a result of the box office success of Salvation. Fox seems to not be that concerned with TSCC ratings, they know it's a popular show through digital downloads and understand that Monday night football was sapping away the viewers. If they think there's the potential for new money, riding on the coattails of T:S, I'm pretty sure we'll get a new season, if if the ratings continue to be iffy. MOD NOTE: Just a friendly reminder, guys - ratings discussion belongs in the the ratings thread. If you want to respond to this comment, please do so there. Thx.
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