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Post by allergygal on Feb 2, 2010 15:10:15 GMT -5
We had Allison's story where it seemed like our present-day Cameron had Allison's memories. We had Xander Akagi explaining that if you could download your thoughts, memories and everything that makes you who you are, the chip he thought was was buying would've been powerful enough to run it. We had Sarah's sleep clinic dream in which she thought Skynet was studying the human brain to try to understand it. And we had John Henry telling Ellison that the human brain is an amazing computer but it was flawed in that there was nowhere to download it when you die. There have been too many hints at Skynet being able to access the human brain for there not to be something to it... The show was clearly going somewhere with all that. I've been working on a wacky theory that in this bizarro timeline where John has jumped ahead, Skynet will have more powerful processors and the ability to download and run the human brain and/or reprogram it. In other words, Skynet might be reprogramming humans — creating infiltrators that would be undetectable. Or, they might be still doing the same things that we know they've been doing all along — creating look-alike infiltrators, but now they'll have the actual personality of the person they're replacing. Or maybe they're doing both of those things. I'm going to point the finger at John Henry as the cause of it all, but I haven't gotten that far in the theory yet  |
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Post by littleb on Feb 2, 2010 16:29:08 GMT -5
In other words, Skynet might be reprogramming humans — creating infiltrators that would be undetectable. Or, they might be still doing the same things that we know they've been doing all along — creating look-alike infiltrators, but now they'll have the actual personality of the person they're replacing. Or maybe they're doing both of those things. Would they really need to do that though? And would it be all that much of an advantage? The machines work so well because - not only do they appear to be human, they have enhanced strength and capabilities which give them a real tactical edge over regular humans. To all intents - until they say something a little odd or start shooting the crap out of a bunker, they're undetectable and indistinguishable from the real deal. I can't see the point of reprogramming a human who might well have similar personality defects (i.e. act a little odd) as the machine, but none of their physical advantages. John Henry bitches about his own design flaws - his inefficient ball and socket joints - but at least under all that he has strength and durability that a human doesn't. I'm not sure Skynet would take the time to reprogram a human and have to deal with all the potential hassles therein, when it can just use collaborators a la the Greys. At some point a reprogrammed human would probably have to reveal itself - i.e carry out a Skynet mission - at which point they're going to be kinda easy to get rid of, unlike the machines which tend to take a hell of a lot of fire power to put down. I love the idea of Skynet studying the human brain/traits/behaviour etc as a means to better understanding their enemy (Cameron seems to do this constantly) but I'm not sure they'd want to emulate us. Their whole ethos seems to be built around the extermination of a lesser species. If anything their study would probably lead to creations like the T-1000 which - to all intents - is undetectable, but still has a long way to go in terms of knowing how to blend in. |
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Post by MetalMint on Feb 3, 2010 0:30:18 GMT -5
Well, considering the fact that supercomputers have already reached and surpassed the lower bound of estimated possessing power of the human brain around 2000 something. Blue Gene/L can do well over 200 teraflops without a sweat and the human brain is estimated only around like 100 something teraflops on the lower bound estimation. And we should be able to reach the very high estimated upper bound by 2010. And that's just with normal technology not skynet super technology. Though the giant size of real life tech is not convent to carry around obviously.
So, with Skynet super technology I think they would have the possessing power easy if not far more then. But, I would see it as more of a software problem then an hardware one. Since the main key is using all that processing power efficiently.
Additionally, instead of building a processor to act like the brain. Why not use the brain like the processor? Terminators all ready use artificial and natural systems together. I think Terminator Salvation touched on this approach of a more hybrid processor. Using multiple methods of data processing is not that huge of a leap, it's hardly even a step. It's more of a gentle incline really. Cameron's chip could just be a secondary system of processing as an processing controller for other systems.
"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat." - Sun Tzu
They all ready are a mix of technology. Replication of the brain's processing is a key advantage the humans still have. So, my guess is they would keep the super strength and try to replicate the brains efficient strategy planing.
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Post by VALIANT CHAMPION on Feb 23, 2010 13:59:34 GMT -5
After seeing terminator 4 many times I am now somewhat convinced that some of the human brain which stores memory was integrated into Cameron from Allison. Albeit not nearly the same as Marcus who had his entire brain with a chip interface.
Sometimes I wonder if Cameron is not aware the whole time that she has Allisons cerebral tissue in her head to interface with her chip. Sometimes the Allison part overrides Cameron to an extent.
Cameron has shown repeatedly to show emotion. At the mexican town where she said she couldnt let anything happen to him, where Ellison asked if she would join with Catherine Weaver, When she was about to get turned off first episode/ season 2, Of course when she becomes Allison and "we know" that it wasnt emulation. She remembered from first person perspective the future when she was Allison Young.
Perhaps when John captured Cameron in the future and knew what the machines had done that he couldnt destroy her knowing that inside was a tiny part of what was left of Allison.
That Cameron said that John talked to her a lot in the future about various things...... yet we know that he only captured Cameron and reprogrammed her shortly after Dereks imprisonment in dungeon and dragons.
That she herself was sent back shortly after Derek was sent back, sometime after talking with Jesse about the Sub mission.
The retinal scan to get access to the time displacment machine room where John Connor was may suggest that the machines may even have hijacked her eyes from Allisons body.
All in all I see an emotional being that seems to erupt out of Cameron at times when the machine is put into certian situations.
Even if it is the writers intentions to say that all this part of an act to get close to John and that it is part of her programming to do so..... I tend to believe my idea more.
Especially after seeing terminator 4.
Only bad thing about this is that Camerons body is left in the past. So if part of Allisons brain is inside the brain case than it will eventually die. The only alternative would be if they can hook up Cameron to the turk like they did Cromartie. Than the body would repair itself.
There is also one chip that could be reprogrammed. However we don't know if John Henry was able to get the chip back up to a level where he could access its memory. This is the one belonging to the terminator that was after Catherine Weaver. (Is he the same one that was locked in the fallout shelter in "Heavy Metal"?
In that case we would see a "Real Allison" stuck in Camerons chassis if the programming is done right. We of course know that Catherine Weaver had one of the most brilliant computer scientist in the world working for her. The one who put John Henry together. Who created an interface between John Henry Turk and Cromarties body.
This new Cameron would be able to help Sarah and Ellison fight skynet in the past. She would be far more emotional as she would be aware of her "Allison" soul (relevance to topic title). Sarah may even connect with her on a personal level.
Of course after meeting Allison in the future we would hardly think he would come back in time and settle for an Allison with a cyborg chassis. Although the Allison in the cyborg chassis would be familiar with John in a way that the Allison in the future would have only been getting to know him.
Hope this doesnt confuse any of you.
Also nice to visit these forums after such a long break.
I love all the cast and crew of TSCC. Especially of course Summer Glau who I think is a very nice person.
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Post by MetalMint on Feb 25, 2010 5:59:13 GMT -5
Come to think of it I wonder if there is a common pattern or tell to when Cameron becomes more emotional or human like. Since often times people with split personality's (Dissociative Identity Disorder) will have some subtle sign like a cough or eye movement or a hand movement or some noticeable visual change. Much like a poker players tell. That happens when switching to a different personality. Since it would be interesting if there was a pattern to when she switches on whatever emotional drive she has going on.
Much like the exaggerated very noticeable head turn for when she is interested. Which happens to be an actual body language sign for being interested in something.
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Post by allergygal on Feb 27, 2010 0:32:14 GMT -5
Cameron does not have Allison's brain or brain tissue or eyes!
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Post by VALIANT CHAMPION on Feb 28, 2010 14:41:53 GMT -5
Explain the flashback of the tiger in the cage and than seeing the small tiger statue on the social workers table.
Other flashbacks could be explained away as being not related to memory but merely to show allison's story. However the tiger statue struck the memory of allison when seeing the tiger during her escape attempt.
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Post by allergygal on Mar 1, 2010 1:06:12 GMT -5
They showed a future flash of the tiger in the cage at the beginning of Cameron's meeting with the counselor and then when she comments on the statue, it leads to the next segment about the escape attempt. So I think it was just there to help bridge the stories. Cameron had glitched and was confusing what she knew of Allison as her own memories. Everything she was telling the counselor came directly from info Allison had given her.
We saw a finished Cameron kill Allison, so Cameron did not have or need Allison's eyes. And since Allison was dead when Cameron walked out of the interrogation room, I don't see any hint that she's got any part of her brain.
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Post by aztalanturf on Mar 1, 2010 23:45:25 GMT -5
Topher could have uploaded Allison's memories onto Bennett...I mean...Cameron....Wait...That's a different show....
Sorry, I couldn't resist. Don't mind me...I will go back to lurking in the Speculation & Spoilers forum, now.
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Post by MetalMint on Mar 4, 2010 12:52:00 GMT -5
Think I will re-post what I have previously said from another topic on this issue. As I have noted with numerous examples many of the things are directly from a perspective seen by Allison and no one else. Most of which remain unexplained with no clear need to bridge the story in such ways:
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One major difference I hold strongly is I still don't think Allison ever really completely died or necessarily died at all. Since during the flashback episode. Cameron's flash back triggers were things from Allison's perspective of events. Which the terminator version could never have seen, experienced, or have emotional reaction to the events. Especially since they are directly from a perspective seen by Allison.
For example:
* Allison in the trapped in the net. This flashback was triggered by an event by Cameron seeing herself in a balloon in the present at the grocery store.
* Allison in the bright lights of the interrogation. This flashback was triggered by an event by Cameron seeing the police officers bright flashlight in the present at the grocery store.
* Allison getting a barcode burned on her arm. In the present at the Jail cell Cameron looks at her arm grabs it and asks "can tattoos disappear."
These are events that only the real Allison experienced and knows about. So how does Cameron experience these events in the the flashbacks or have those triggers?
Because of this I hold falling unconscious on the table being presumably dead is not enough.
True, but why? Why even do that? Some other scenes of her in the future did not use flashback triggers that directly specific. So clearly there was not the need to add in those very specific triggers only capable of being from a perspective seen by Allison and no one else type of flashback. It's either an unplanned failure on the writers part or a planed element to the storyline. And so far they keep on making references to the human brain in many other episodes. So I still think something is probably there.
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Now about the eyes:
Considering John Connor was the one re-porgraming her it is possible that they just added her eyes to the access list. So, a retinal scan does not have to link to it being Allison's real eyes.
But, on the other hand why not take the eyes? Would a terminator machine turn down a completely perfect real version of Allison's eyes and instead want to use a slightly imperfect copy that might not match perfect?
In conclusion, I hold that having Allison's real eyes could be possible though not required to hold the story.
Some part of her real brain or replication of part of her brain or copy of her brain's memory would be required to hold the story. Since, it's not logical otherwise. Like I have said before it's either an unplanned failure on the writers part or a planed element to the storyline. There is not much middle ground really possible since they did not make it ubiquitous to both characters.
I would think some type of hardware or software replication and download would be most likely. Though as noted in the other episodes when the terminator takes the geneticist's eyes Terminator's are clearly capable of sustaining the life of organs from humans via some unknown biological system.
Anyways, with that said if it was a planed element I think it makes a good one that's an interesting new level and seems to match the story perfectly and would explain a lot of things going on.
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Post by allergygal on Mar 8, 2010 2:52:06 GMT -5
The biggest strike against the notion that Cameron had Allison's eyes is the fact that Cameron already had eyes at the time she was finishing up her interrogation of Allison.
As for the memories thing, I agree that the trigger points of the story crossing from present to future flashback make some of it seem like Allison's actual memories. But we didn't just see Allison slump to the table unconscious, we saw Cameron snap her neck. I think the implication that Cameron killed Allison is much stronger than the murkiness of the transitions between the stories. So I'm sticking with dramatic license as the explanation for that.
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Post by MetalMint on Mar 9, 2010 6:51:41 GMT -5
True, I would agree it's extremely unlikely based on the established story details. Though just saying I don't see it as impossible. Since, they did show that eyes could be harvested and there is not any logical fallacies occurring if they were. But overall it's not required to hold the story. They don't just make it seem like Allison's actual memories they are only possible logically if they were experienced by the real Allison. They did not really have any ambiguity which could have easily been inserted. Oh, Allison is most likely dead. But, the question is just how dead? Physically she has been terminated most likely for sure. Except it could still hold true that Allison's memory or part of her is still alive in some form in coexistence with Cameron somehow by the all ready established super technology in the story. OK,  maybe it's dramatic license or sure stupidity for not adding any ambiguity what-so-ever when showing points of the characters perspective. All of which end up making the character story confusing and logically incorrect. But that's hardly any fun. Just think of the mad science terminator possibilities ;D, story twists and explanations of many events it opens up if it was indeed true. Which would just so happen to also fix the logical problems along with adding to the story. So, for me I don't see the downside here. |
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Post by badism on Oct 23, 2010 2:19:11 GMT -5
There is no brain tissue in Cameron's head. I think it's more likley that Skynet found a way to imprint human memories into the neural net of a Terminator's CPU. This process could even be done after the subject's death as brain activity continues for a time. We don't have all information on who Allison was and what she meant to John. If they were lovers (yes theres an age gap, but so what) that could explain the "choosen" line and it could explain why John kept Cameron around after catching her, he just couldn't let go of Allison, especially since Cameron would have appeared to be a perfect copy, emotions and all. The other possibility (and I like this one better) is that there were two Cameron's in the future. The "young" one that killed Allison and the one that spent 20 years with John, from 2007-2027. So the resistance capture's "young" Cameron easely because they all reconize her as John's companion, but John can't have her destroyed because he must send her back in time (just like he had to send Kyle back) or she could never become the Cameron he knows (and most likely loves). In that case Skynet must have mistook Allison for the older Cameron and that is why it captured her and copied her and that explains the "choosen" remark...as in why do you get to hang around John all the time. It would be the same kind of time loop that brought about John and Skynet to begin with. It would also mean Allison didn't really know John at all. Remember that as in real life the show doesn't assume "souls" even exist. It's a religious concept and just the opinion of some of the characters. This show is based in reality and science and not the supernatural. Cameron is self aware and is worthy of respect and consideration just as any other living being should be. Humans after all are just organic machines. What difference does it make how we were made or what we're made of. It's "I think, therefore I am" not "I'm made of flesh and bone and therefore I am"  |
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Post by allergygal on Oct 26, 2010 14:43:36 GMT -5
There is no brain tissue in Cameron's head. I think it's more likley that Skynet found a way to imprint human memories into the neural net of a Terminator's CPU. This process could even be done after the subject's death as brain activity continues for a time. We don't have all information on who Allison was and what she meant to John. If they were lovers (yes theres an age gap, but so what) that could explain the "choosen" line and it could explain why John kept Cameron around after catching her, he just couldn't let go of Allison, especially since Cameron would have appeared to be a perfect copy, emotions and all. I can't get on board with the idea that Allison's actual memories are on Cameron's chip. If the machines had the ability to extract stuff from Allison's brain, there would be no point in interrogating her. I also can't get on board with future!John being Allison's lover... it's just too fraking pervy for a 40+ year old to be hooked up with someone who's like 19 years old. I refuse to believe John Connor is that creepy!   The other possibility (and I like this one better) is that there were two Cameron's in the future. The "young" one that killed Allison and the one that spent 20 years with John, from 2007-2027. So the resistance capture's "young" Cameron easely because they all reconize her as John's companion, but John can't have her destroyed because he must send her back in time (just like he had to send Kyle back) or she could never become the Cameron he knows (and most likely loves). In that case Skynet must have mistook Allison for the older Cameron and that is why it captured her and copied her and that explains the "choosen" remark...as in why do you get to hang around John all the time. It would be the same kind of time loop that brought about John and Skynet to begin with. It would also mean Allison didn't really know John at all. The idea of Cameron looping through the various timelines we've seen is definitely something I've been open to. In that theory, though, you don't need a new Cameron every time since the same one can be going back over and over again. I also don't think Kyle ever needs to go back in time again since he already did it in a prior timeline and John Connor now exists. I don't quite follow your logic on why Skynet would want to capture and copy Cameron (or how it could confuse Allison for Cameron). Cameron is self aware and is worthy of respect and consideration just as any other living being should be. Humans after all are just organic machines. What difference does it make how we were made or what we're made of. It's "I think, therefore I am" not "I'm made of flesh and bone and therefore I am" I think the show tried hard to remind us that Cameron doesn't have emotion and that she's not human even while she seemed somewhat emotionally human at times. It's meant to be murky and debatable and I see the chip damage as a pivotal point in that aspect of her story. |
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Post by MetalMint on Mar 23, 2011 18:17:43 GMT -5
Perhaps Skynet can't figure out the inter working of memories and how the human mind works. They were a un-intended consequence of her getting broken. Instead Skynet was trying to use it to replicate what she would do, think and feel. They can input and receive output but they can't see how it works. This is actually something very well known in both computer science and cybernetics it's known as a Black-box. See: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box |
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maybe it's dramatic license or sure stupidity for not adding any ambiguity what-so-ever when showing points of the characters perspective. All of which end up making the character story confusing and logically incorrect.
