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Post by jen22 on Mar 10, 2008 21:52:33 GMT -5
How would future John know who Derek really is? Haven't we learned that John doesn't have friends in the future? That he doesn't talk to anyone? How can you really know someone when you technically never spend any real quality time with him?
So it's ok to kill a couple innocent people to save all? That is a screwed up philosophy that thankfully real good people in the stories (the heroes) don't have. The end doesn't justify the means. Best example to me that Derek is 'evil' was the last episode. He grabbed the little girl and deliberately put her into a dangerous situation. The guy could have just shot her point blank instead of saying it wasn't his kid. That would have been ok to you too? No matter what the little girl is gonna be scared for life (however long that is). Good people just don't do things like that.
I also don't believe in that 'lived through JD' philosophy. That would be like saying it's ok for a child rapist (or something along the lines) to do what he did because it was done to him as a child. That's just an excuse. How we deal with what happens to us depends on the person. And in Derek's case it totally screwed him up. I don't believe his brother Kyle would do or approve of the things he does because he is the total opposite of Derek. Kyle was a gentle soul, despite everything that happened to him.
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roseredscare
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Post by roseredscare on Mar 10, 2008 21:58:01 GMT -5
If there's one thing we know about Derek it's that he loves his brother dearly. I think Derek lost a significant part of his humanity and will to live when his brother Kyle went missing. When that Terminator was attacking fighters in the bunker, he fearlessly egged it on to kill him and just finish things. After losing so much, it didn't matter to Derek anymore, he didn't have anything left to live for.
Then John Connor sends him on this mission that could mean the end of Skynet, that could save everyone. And that's what Derek's life became, he became the mission because that was all that was left for him. But now he knows Kyle had a son and that he has a nephew, so there's now more than just a mission for him, there's potentially life with family again. John can now keep Derek grounded like Kyle probably once did.
It goes well with what Sarah says to John in What He Beheld, "This is our life. If we stop caring about that, than we're lost." Derek was lost because all he had was the mission, now he might be able to live again.
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Paloma
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Post by Paloma on Mar 10, 2008 22:13:05 GMT -5
I also don't believe in that 'lived through JD' philosophy. That would be like saying it's ok for a child rapist (or something along the lines) to do what he did because it was done to him as a child. That's just an excuse. How we deal with what happens to us depends on the person. And in Derek's case it totally screwed him up. I don't believe his brother Kyle would do or approve of the things he does because he is the total opposite of Derek. Kyle was a gentle soul, despite everything that happened to him. I don't think people are saying that because he lived through Judgement Day the things he does are okay, more that people do get severely messed up from living in a post-apocolyptic warzone, so it's understandable for him to be a little unhinged. Even Kyle, who was indeed a "gentle soul" was affected by the harshness of the time he came from.
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rossbondreturns
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Post by rossbondreturns on Mar 10, 2008 23:40:30 GMT -5
If there's one thing we know about Derek it's that he loves his brother dearly. I think Derek lost a significant part of his humanity and will to live when his brother Kyle went missing. When that Terminator was attacking fighters in the bunker, he fearlessly egged it on to kill him and just finish things. After losing so much, it didn't matter to Derek anymore, he didn't have anything left to live for. Then John Connor sends him on this mission that could mean the end of Skynet, that could save everyone. And that's what Derek's life became, he became the mission because that was all that was left for him. But now he knows Kyle had a son and that he has a nephew, so there's now more than just a mission for him, there's potentially life with family again. John can now keep Derek grounded like Kyle probably once did. It goes well with what Sarah says to John in What He Beheld, "This is our life. If we stop caring about that, than we're lost." Derek was lost because all he had was the mission, now he might be able to live again. I really hope he does find a solifity in family again...because it's still niggling in the back of my mind that I doubt Connor had anything to do with this mission. I just think it's Derek and friends using the equipment to their advantage and quite possibly having their grand idea backfire...and with most of his team wiped out it really has.
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roseredscare
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Post by roseredscare on Mar 11, 2008 0:01:42 GMT -5
For crying out loud! There is nothing, I repeat, NOTHING! in the show that hints at this at all! Everything they've given use has flat out contradicted it. First, Cameron knew where Derek and his crew were hiding, and she took Sarah there saying they were support sent by John. How would she know this if John hadn't have told her? Second, when Derek is demanding to talk to John about where he sent Kyle, John sends for him via Cameron and shows him the time machine (that's well secured, by the way, with the eye scan and the vault looking door) with the purpose of sending him back to 2007. Third, when Derek was describing the mission to his unit, he wasn't even sure if the thing worked but he was taking John's word for it.
Why would John show Derek and convince him it works and tell Cameron to find these guys in the past if he wasn't going to send them?
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rossbondreturns
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Post by rossbondreturns on Mar 11, 2008 0:11:43 GMT -5
Only the writers of TSCC know that.
The only reason I'm stucking to my guns is because theturk said I was right about some of my ideas and wrong about others.
And this one would be the most intriguing one to be right about.
Especially since taking out the only one that calms Skynet as far as we know...was in fact a badly though out manuver.
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roseredscare
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Post by roseredscare on Mar 11, 2008 0:28:18 GMT -5
I can see something coming out of taking out Andy Goode but I think it's as clear as this show is ever going to be that John and only John sent Derek and co to the past.
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rossbondreturns
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Post by rossbondreturns on Mar 11, 2008 0:38:01 GMT -5
true but that doesn't mean that they're going to stay on mission.
They could take out targets of opportunity.
And those targets of opportunity could make Skynet more dangerous rather than less.
Of course....he could also complete more elements of his mission evening it out...I think to be honest that's how I'd like Derek to develop.
taking out targets of oppourtunity like Andy...and then fulfilling parts of the mission that one can be 100 percent certain came from Connor.
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roseredscare
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Post by roseredscare on Mar 11, 2008 0:55:02 GMT -5
I never said they stayed on mission, we don't even have a very clear picture of what that was, I'm just saying it's an undeniable fact that it was John who chose them and John who sent them to the past.
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rossbondreturns
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Post by rossbondreturns on Mar 11, 2008 2:21:08 GMT -5
And all I'm saying is the plan if there was one has gone to hell...and Derek took out Andy wehter or not he could ever complete the plan.
Andy became a target of opportunity once the mission was compromised- Derek took him out hoping he could salvage something from the mission-
BUt he may have inadvertently made the future worse instead of better.
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Post by vicheron on Mar 11, 2008 13:42:03 GMT -5
How would future John know who Derek really is? Haven't we learned that John doesn't have friends in the future? That he doesn't talk to anyone? How can you really know someone when you technically never spend any real quality time with him? So it's ok to kill a couple innocent people to save all? That is a screwed up philosophy that thankfully real good people in the stories (the heroes) don't have. The end doesn't justify the means. Best example to me that Derek is 'evil' was the last episode. He grabbed the little girl and deliberately put her into a dangerous situation. The guy could have just shot her point blank instead of saying it wasn't his kid. That would have been ok to you too? No matter what the little girl is gonna be scared for life (however long that is). Good people just don't do things like that. I also don't believe in that 'lived through JD' philosophy. That would be like saying it's ok for a child rapist (or something along the lines) to do what he did because it was done to him as a child. That's just an excuse. How we deal with what happens to us depends on the person. And in Derek's case it totally screwed him up. I don't believe his brother Kyle would do or approve of the things he does because he is the total opposite of Derek. Kyle was a gentle soul, despite everything that happened to him. Future John isn't stupid. He's not going to put the destiny of the human race in the hands of someone who can't handle the job. After the first chase scene in the first Terminator, Kyle Reese was going to shoot it out with the police before Sarah stopped him. Don't forget that Kyle didn't try to save Sarah until after the Terminator revealed himself which led to the deaths of all those people at Tech Noir. If Kyle had gotten Sarah before he knew what the Terminator looked like, it would have risked his mission but all those innocent people wouldn't have died. There are all the deaths that are indirectly caused by John Connor, like all the other Sarah Connors the Terminators killed. Of course we can't forget that John knew that Kyle was going to die on his mission and didn't do anything to prevent it.
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roseredscare
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Post by roseredscare on Mar 11, 2008 13:45:56 GMT -5
And all I'm saying is the plan if there was one has gone to hell...and Derek took out Andy wehter or not he could ever complete the plan. Andy became a target of opportunity once the mission was compromised- Derek took him out hoping he could salvage something from the mission- BUt he may have inadvertently made the future worse instead of better. Yes, I agree with you. I do think that the mission John sent them on was pretty much a failure and that Derek killed Andy to try and accomplish something and maybe something bad may come out of it. I was just disagreeing with your statement that John never sent Derek and co to the past to begin with because we have a staggering amount of evidence to the contrary.
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rossbondreturns
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Post by rossbondreturns on Mar 11, 2008 15:31:17 GMT -5
Unless of course it's the ultimate Deux et Machina...and John is deaad and Cameron built a John...which I hate...mind you...or...this I like....everyone supposedly has a double somewhere in the world. What if it's not John that sends them...in other words what if John is indisposed...and his doppleganger (I love that word)...Uses Cameron to get to the TDE and send Derek and his team on his own personal mission. One that sounds great but in reality is not good at all once thought about. Or- lol I do have other ideas that's what makes us writers so BAD!
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roseredscare
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Post by roseredscare on Mar 11, 2008 21:07:21 GMT -5
You're crazy. But I mean that in the nicest possible way.
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Post by allergygal on Mar 12, 2008 1:11:12 GMT -5
If there's one thing we know about Derek it's that he loves his brother dearly. I think Derek lost a significant part of his humanity and will to live when his brother Kyle went missing. When that Terminator was attacking fighters in the bunker, he fearlessly egged it on to kill him and just finish things. After losing so much, it didn't matter to Derek anymore, he didn't have anything left to live for. Then John Connor sends him on this mission that could mean the end of Skynet, that could save everyone. And that's what Derek's life became, he became the mission because that was all that was left for him. But now he knows Kyle had a son and that he has a nephew, so there's now more than just a mission for him, there's potentially life with family again. John can now keep Derek grounded like Kyle probably once did. It goes well with what Sarah says to John in What He Beheld, "This is our life. If we stop caring about that, than we're lost." Derek was lost because all he had was the mission, now he might be able to live again. I like your take on Derek and think it would be an interesting way for his character to develop, but I haven't seen any evidence of it... yet. Yes, he really seems to take to John. But at the same time, when they're sharing that lovely moment in the park, he says he'd do anything to not see that park burn again. I took that to mean he's going to continue what I believe to be his personal mission: to hunt and kill the other people that worked with Andy. At some point there's got to be some fallout from his methods (and I mean something more than Sarah shooting a disappointed glare at him). Sarah's line that you quoted is the perfect setup for it: "This is our life. If we stop caring about that, then we're lost." She meant it on a personal level about her and John, but it also sums up the moral struggle. If they stop caring about huma life in their quest to change the future, then they're lost. And right now, Derek is lost. I really hope he does find a solifity in family again...because it's still niggling in the back of my mind that I doubt Connor had anything to do with this mission. I just think it's Derek and friends using the equipment to their advantage and quite possibly having their grand idea backfire...and with most of his team wiped out it really has. I'm sure future!John actually sent Derek & co., because Cameron knew the resistance fighters were going to be there. I don't know if anyone but derek went beyond the mission, though. So far we only know that Sayles tracked Barbara, but gathering intel was presumably part of the mission. I think the point at which the line was crossed is when Derek killed Andy. Unless, future!John actually ends up more like uncle Derek and tells him to do it (and lie to present!John and Sarah since they wouldn't understand). Hope that's not the case, eve though it could make for an interesting twist.
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