roseredscare
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Castiel, your local kickass angel
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Post by roseredscare on Mar 12, 2008 2:12:46 GMT -5
I like your take on Derek and think it would be an interesting way for his character to develop, but I haven't seen any evidence of it... yet. Yes, he really seems to take to John. But at the same time, when they're sharing that lovely moment in the park, he says he'd do anything to not see that park burn again. I took that to mean he's going to continue what I believe to be his personal mission: to hunt and kill the other people that worked with Andy. At some point there's got to be some fallout from his methods (and I mean something more than Sarah shooting a disappointed glare at him). Sarah's line that you quoted is the perfect setup for it: "This is our life. If we stop caring about that, then we're lost." She meant it on a personal level about her and John, but it also sums up the moral struggle. If they stop caring about huma life in their quest to change the future, then they're lost. And right now, Derek is lost. Generally, I don't see anything in your post that contradicts mine. I don't believe Derek is anywhere close to finishing his journey. He's still hell set on his mission and still needs to learn the moral consequences for his actions. But I do believe that learning John is his nephew will have a positive and grounding influence on him in the near future. Derek is still lost but I believe with the help of John as his nephew he can be found and be a better person for it. Knowing who John was along made him lighten up considerably in What He Beheld. He needs time to realize his family and humanity again after Kyle and I think more of the openness we saw in that episode is signs of things to come from him.
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Post by vicheron on Mar 12, 2008 2:58:30 GMT -5
We don't know what Derek's "real" mission is. It wasn't exactly Kyle's mission to impregnate Sarah.
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Post by jen22 on Mar 12, 2008 11:52:23 GMT -5
Future John isn't stupid. He's not going to put the destiny of the human race in the hands of someone who can't handle the job. I don't think John put the fate of the human race in Derek's hands. He put it in Sarah's. And that message came across pretty clear in episode 1 and 2. Getting caught by the police would stop him from protecting Sarah. But when Derek was about to shoot the cops down in the shaft they were helpless on the ground. Big difference. At least the police in T1 had a fair chance because they were armed and up. Most likely scenario it would have happened anyway. Even if Kyle hadn't been there. The Terminator would have killed Sarah and some people would have tried to be heroes and stop him from killing more. And the Terminator would have killed them anyway. It's kinda what they do. You stand in their way they kill you. Also there is a very big difference between that and actually pulling the trigger on those people yourself, specially when they are defenseless against you. Like Andy Goode was. Or those cops. Good people don't do that. But I'm feeling like saying the same things over and over and people still don't understand. *shrugs*
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roseredscare
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Castiel, your local kickass angel
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Post by roseredscare on Mar 12, 2008 13:21:41 GMT -5
How I understood the tunnel guard scene was that Derek wasn't really thinking at the time, he was pretty much on auto pilot. It was his instinct to make sure those guards couldn't get up again because they were the enemy. I don't think it was anything more than that. Sarah had to call him out of his haze before he went through with it and when she did he followed her lead without question. I think Derek keeps on forgetting he's fighting humans (most just doing their jobs) now not machines. Andy Goode on the other hand is another matter. I'd like to see more of Derek's feelings about Andy's assassination because after all Andy had once been Derek's friend and as we saw when Derek was watching the feed from Vick's chip he feels for his men greatly. The scene where Sarah confronts him about Andy is an interesting one to me (appart from the naked Derek in the shower part because Derek doesn't say anything. He doesn't try to defend himself, justify it, or tell her about anything we saw in D&D, he's just silent which makes me wonder if Derek may finally be feeling guilty in realizing he had killed a defenseless friend. Time will tell.
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Post by allergygal on Mar 12, 2008 13:49:13 GMT -5
How I understood the tunnel guard scene was that Derek wasn't really thinking at the time, he was pretty much on auto pilot. It was his instinct to make sure those guards couldn't get up again because they were the enemy. I don't think it was anything more than that. Sarah had to call him out of his haze before he went through with it and when she did he followed her lead without question. I think Derek keeps on forgetting he's fighting humans (most just doing their jobs) now not machines. I read that scene the same way. The look in Derek's eyes when Sarah stops him is pretty crazed. He definitely seemed to be acting on "auto pilot". But I don't know if I can take the leap to him not realizing in the heat of the moment that he was fighting humans ... Killing Andy and killing fake!Sarkissian didn't seem to bother him in the slightest and he knew full well what he was doing then. So I think yes, Derek was on auto-pilot when he was about to shoot those cops, but his auto-pilot seems to be kill anyone who is a threat, not just any thing. Andy Goode on the other hand is another matter. I'd like to see more of Derek's feelings about Andy's assassination because after all Andy had once been Derek's friend and as we saw when Derek was watching the feed from Vick's chip he feels for his men greatly. The scene where Sarah confronts him about Andy is an interesting one to me (appart from the naked Derek in the shower part because Derek doesn't say anything. He doesn't try to defend himself, justify it, or tell her about anything we saw in D&D, he's just silent which makes me wonder if Derek may finally be feeling guilty in realizing he had killed a defenseless friend. Time will tell. Yeah me too. What I didn't like about that shower scene was Derek's silence and blank expression. Now we have to wait for season 2 to find out why Derek lied to Sarah about killing Andy, why he didn't just tell her what he knew about future!Andy, whether or not he feels the slightest bit guilty (I certainly didn't sense any guilt) and, oh yeah, why the hell Sarah was more upset about being lied to than having her friend murdered! Augh. I'm so worried the Andy storyline is going to be a victim of our shortened season 1. Josh Friedman said they were trying to figure out how to wrap up the season 1 stories early in season 2 so they could continue on with what they'd planned for season 2. But I hope they don't rush through the Andy/Derek/Sarah stuff. I really want to see how that all plays out.
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Post by jen22 on Mar 12, 2008 15:03:07 GMT -5
Andy Goode on the other hand is another matter. I'd like to see more of Derek's feelings about Andy's assassination because after all Andy had once been Derek's friend and as we saw when Derek was watching the feed from Vick's chip he feels for his men greatly. He actually didn't feel for his men. He put on a show to decieve everyone in the room. Acting all shocked and teary eyed. Lets not forget he lied in that scene about him knowing that one of them was following the woman. Last I checked he changed the whole mission (whatever the original mission was) and since future John only talked to him his men probably though it was the mission to spy on all those people. I would however accept it if someone argued that the teary eyes were for the fact that Derek realized he got his men killed by changing the mission. And that maybe he felt guilty for that. Although I have yet to see Derek express any remorse or guilt for anything he did.
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roseredscare
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Castiel, your local kickass angel
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Post by roseredscare on Mar 12, 2008 15:04:25 GMT -5
I read that scene the same way. The look in Derek's eyes when Sarah stops him is pretty crazed. He definitely seemed to be acting on "auto pilot". But I don't know if I can take the leap to him not realizing in the heat of the moment that he was fighting humans ... Killing Andy and killing fake!Sarkissian didn't seem to bother him in the slightest and he knew full well what he was doing then. So I think yes, Derek was on auto-pilot when he was about to shoot those cops, but his auto-pilot seems to be kill anyone who is a threat, not just any thing. As far as I see it, Derek has been fighting nearly his whole life and his enemy has always been the machines that he never had to care about how many he killed or how he did it. He never had to care about if they were helpless or not, because they were always killing machines that would kill him as soon as they spotted him. It was purely black and white. But now, in the past he seems to highlight those they fight against as the enemy, the other, and he's not used to showing mercy because in his old time that would have gotten him and everyone else killed. As for him killing fake!Sarkissian, that was clearly in defense of another and him as a hardened soldier, I can understand why that kill wouldn't bother him at all. Yeah me too. What I didn't like about that shower scene was Derek's silence and blank expression. Now we have to wait for season 2 to find out why Derek lied to Sarah about killing Andy, why he didn't just tell her what he knew about future!Andy, whether or not he feels the slightest bit guilty (I certainly didn't sense any guilt) and, oh yeah, why the hell Sarah was more upset about being lied to than having her friend murdered! Augh. I'm so worried the Andy storyline is going to be a victim of our shortened season 1. Josh Friedman said they were trying to figure out how to wrap up the season 1 stories early in season 2 so they could continue on with what they'd planned for season 2. But I hope they don't rush through the Andy/Derek/Sarah stuff. I really want to see how that all plays out. I can't think of any thing but guilt as the reason why Derek stayed silent. Why not defend his choice? Why not try to explain? Hell, if he's as good an actor as jen22 claims him to be, why not deny it (he knew she didn't have any real proof)? I can't help but feel that there's something more to Derek's feelings about killing Andy. He obviously thought it was a way to stop J-Day but why did it take him so long to kill him? Why didn't he defend his choice to Sarah? Why did he bother to lie to Sarah? As for Sarah not being more upset, I can understand that. Andy was never a real close friend of hers (though she's shown thinking more about Andy than Enrique who really was a close friend) and for most of the time she knew him she thought she was going to have to kill him. So she can't all together condemn Derek because she was close to making the same choice he did many times and deep down she might think it was unavoidable. But damn I want this thing resolved too! He actually didn't feel for his men. He put on a show to decieve everyone in the room. Acting all shocked and teary eyed. Lets not forget he lied in that scene about him knowing that one of them was following the woman. Last I checked he changed the whole mission (whatever the original mission was) and since future John only talked to him his men probably though it was the mission to spy on all those people. We don't know for a fact that he lied about his man following Barbara. I don't see why he would. He seemed to think she might be related to the hunt for the Turk when they were searching her house. Overall he seemed genuinely clueless about her. I think he was telling the truth and so did John (he made it a point to tell Derek that). Derek was pretty close to tears when he saw that feed, so much so he left the room. It seemed like true emotion and characterization to me. If not then what a waste of a scene. Hopefully this isn't 24 where character's motivations can change at the drop of a hat in incredibly sloppy ways. We also don't know if Derek's crew was off mission or not. If the mission is how Sayles described it in D&D: establish a safe house, gather intel and wait for more orders then that seems to be pretty much what they did until most of them were killed. As far as we've seen they never went off mission until Derek killed Andy. I would however accept it if someone argued that the teary eyes were for the fact that Derek realized he got his men killed by changing the mission. And that maybe he felt guilty for that. Although I have yet to see Derek express any remorse or guilt for anything he did.I'd say we have. Derek seemed very remorseful and guilty when they escaped from Skynet and came back to the burned out bunker. So much so it makes me wonder if he might not have cracked and given away the location. This is also reinforced by his talk with John in Demon Hand where he guilty admitted that fewer keep fighting than John might thing.
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Post by vicheron on Mar 12, 2008 16:58:30 GMT -5
Future John isn't stupid. He's not going to put the destiny of the human race in the hands of someone who can't handle the job. I don't think John put the fate of the human race in Derek's hands. He put it in Sarah's. And that message came across pretty clear in episode 1 and 2. Derek and his team were sent back to stop the creation of Skynet so future John put the fate of 3 billion people in his hands or 750 million people since there were 4 Resistance soldiers. Plus future John wouldn't be stupid enough to send back someone that could hurt Sarah. Getting shot by the police would also have stopped him from protecting Sarah. The point is that Kyle was willing to kill innocent people to complete his mission. Sure what Derek did was less "honorable" but just because Kyle was going to fight against people could defend themselves doesn't the fact that they're still innocent people. Kyle had been following Sarah ever since she left the house. He didn't choose to grab Sarah until after the Terminator revealed himself. Kyle willingly put all the people at Tech Noir at risk by waiting for the Terminator to reveal himself rather than risk his mission by grabbing Sarah at the first opportunity. Yes the Terminator kills anything in its way but if Kyle hadn't let Sarah entered a crowded nightclub then all those people wouldn't have been in the Terminator's way. Kyle knew the kind of enemy that was pursuing him and yet he still chose to go into crowded places. That's like if you were being chased by a bear and you chose to run into town instead of deeper into the woods, away from people. Sure, it's the bear that mauls people but it was you who led the bear into the town instead of away from it.
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Post by allergygal on Mar 12, 2008 17:03:39 GMT -5
He actually didn't feel for his men. He put on a show to decieve everyone in the room. Acting all shocked and teary eyed. Lets not forget he lied in that scene about him knowing that one of them was following the woman. Last I checked he changed the whole mission (whatever the original mission was) and since future John only talked to him his men probably though it was the mission to spy on all those people. I would however accept it if someone argued that the teary eyes were for the fact that Derek realized he got his men killed by changing the mission. And that maybe he felt guilty for that. Although I have yet to see Derek express any remorse or guilt for anything he did. Oh now see that's a leap I'm not ready to take. Derek's teary eyes about his buddies could have been an act. But they also could have been legitimate (either because he really didn't know what Sayles was doing or because Derek realized his personal agenda got Sayles and the others killed). At the moment, I'm not a fan of Derek at all. But I'm not ready to write him off as completely bad either. I'd like to believe he was legitimately upset about his buddies getting killed because that opens the door for him to begin to question his actions.
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Post by jen22 on Mar 12, 2008 18:03:29 GMT -5
Derek and his team were sent back to stop the creation of Skynet so future John put the fate of 3 billion people in his hands or 750 million people since there were 4 Resistance soldiers. Plus future John wouldn't be stupid enough to send back someone that could hurt Sarah. No they weren't. In case you haven't been paying attention we were never told what Derek's mission really was. NEVER. We heard from Cameron that Sarah is the best fighter future John knows so it's only logical to assume that Sarah would lead the fight. Cameron also said that Derek and his team were send there to wait for them but not what they were supposed to do until they met up. So yeah future John put the fate in his mother's hands. With the assitance of Cameron and the Resistance fighters. Are you telling me you would actually run further into the woods? Where you could possibly get lost and have no defense against any anmial? Somehow I doubt that. I know I would run where civilization is. It's called survival and self preservation. No matter how much we try to say we would make the right choice we never know until confronted with a situation where we find out. And lets face it what are the chances of the bear actually entering a town. Wild animals stay away from cities and humans for a reason. Unless in extreme cases where food in the wild runs out.
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rossbondreturns
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Post by rossbondreturns on Mar 12, 2008 20:18:53 GMT -5
Wow this is a fantastic conversation that I'll stay out of...lol.
But I must say I agree that Derek has a lot to hide. And we know very very little about his mission...if anything really.
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Post by vicheron on Mar 12, 2008 23:44:02 GMT -5
Derek and his team were sent back to stop the creation of Skynet so future John put the fate of 3 billion people in his hands or 750 million people since there were 4 Resistance soldiers. Plus future John wouldn't be stupid enough to send back someone that could hurt Sarah. No they weren't. In case you haven't been paying attention we were never told what Derek's mission really was. NEVER. We heard from Cameron that Sarah is the best fighter future John knows so it's only logical to assume that Sarah would lead the fight. Cameron also said that Derek and his team were send there to wait for them but not what they were supposed to do until they met up. So yeah future John put the fate in his mother's hands. With the assitance of Cameron and the Resistance fighters. The Resistance team was gathering info on Skynet. That was how Sarah learned about Andy Goode in the first place. You can split hairs all you want but the fact is that Derek could have a significant influence on the future of the human race and future John wouldn't be stupid enough to risk sending someone who could hurt the human race. Oh please, that's just an example to prove a point. A "good" person as you put it, would put himself at risk in order to protect others. Kyle Reese didn't put himself or his mission in danger by grabbing Sarah at the first sign of opportunity. Instead, he waited until the Terminator revealed himself, which led the deaths of all those people at Tech Noir. It may have been the Terminator who killed all those people but Kyle had a chance to prevent that from happening but he didn't.
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Post by jen22 on Mar 12, 2008 23:58:48 GMT -5
The Resistance team was gathering info on Skynet. That was how Sarah learned about Andy Goode in the first place. You can split hairs all you want but the fact is that Derek could have a significant influence on the future of the human race and future John wouldn't be stupid enough to risk sending someone who could hurt the human race. Please tell me specifically where in the show it was mentioned that gathering that information was their original mission. And unless I understood the future scenes wrong Andy lived under an alias in the future. Derek only learned about him because he confessed. And it doesn't seem like Derek told anyone about that. So how would future John know if he made the right decision in sending Derek? Maybe it was a mistake. Like it's said on the show humans aren't perfect, even future John isn't. And that's not splitting hairs. That's just facts from the show. That's why I never bring in the movies when I discuss this show's characters. Because they are in many ways different. I don't like comparing people from different adaptions of the same topic. Sarah and John are totally different than the ones in the movies. T2 Sarah and John were crude and could curse like there was no tomorrow. TSCC John and Sarah are watered down versions in that area. I have yet to hear either curse like that. That was just one example btw. And from what little I have seen of THIS show's Kyle Reese he is totally different from the T1 version too. If you wanna talk Kyle as a comparision to Derek lets talk TSCC Kyle. Because when it comes to this show that's the one that matters. And from what I have seen of this Kyle he isn't nearly as crazed as the T1 version either. He seems like a calm, well collected guy.
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Post by vicheron on Mar 13, 2008 0:39:42 GMT -5
The Resistance team was gathering info on Skynet. That was how Sarah learned about Andy Goode in the first place. You can split hairs all you want but the fact is that Derek could have a significant influence on the future of the human race and future John wouldn't be stupid enough to risk sending someone who could hurt the human race. Please tell me specifically where in the show it was mentioned that gathering that information was their original mission. And unless I understood the future scenes wrong Andy lived under an alias in the future. Derek only learned about him because he confessed. And it doesn't seem like Derek told anyone about that. So how would future John know if he made the right decision in sending Derek? Maybe it was a mistake. Like it's said on the show humans aren't perfect, even future John isn't. And that's not splitting hairs. That's just facts from the show. We don't know what the Resistance team's mission is. For all we know, they're supposed to stockpile ice cream for the Resistance's victory party over Skynet. However, their skills and their knowledge of the future gives them a lot of power. They can greatly influence the fate of the human race. If future John wasn't absolutely sure of their convictions and their beliefs then he wouldn't have risked sending them back. It's certainly possible the future John has made a mistake but if he makes a mistake that big then he wouldn't be a very good leader. It's impossible to talk about the show's characters without bringing up the movies. The writers are trying to keep the spirit of the movies as much as they can. Josh Friedman said that the writers have always kept James Cameron's vision in mind when they wrote the show. They're just limited by what television allows them to do. If the show were on HBO or Showtime then there would no doubt be a lot more profanities and violence. Also we don't know what the show's version of Kyle is like. Plus it would be really inappropriate to rewrite the character considering how the writers don't want to make James Cameron unhappy.
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Post by Derek Reese on Mar 14, 2008 0:30:47 GMT -5
I'm entirely impressed with this debate to be completely blunt.
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