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Post by allergygal on Mar 14, 2008 13:23:27 GMT -5
Please tell me specifically where in the show it was mentioned that gathering that information was their original mission. And unless I understood the future scenes wrong Andy lived under an alias in the future. Derek only learned about him because he confessed. And it doesn't seem like Derek told anyone about that. So how would future John know if he made the right decision in sending Derek? Maybe it was a mistake. Like it's said on the show humans aren't perfect, even future John isn't. And that's not splitting hairs. That's just facts from the show. We don't know for sure what the scope of their mission was supposed to be, but we do have the information Derek gave to his buddies before they time jumped: Sayles only knows what Derek is telling him, but what I take from that scene is that going back in time 20 years, setting up a safe house, gathering intel and waiting for someone else to show up with more orders was the mission given to them by John. Everything else was Derek's own idea: saving Kyle, saving everybody, fixing all the mistakes (taking out Andy in 2007 being step 1 in his personal plan).
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roseredscare
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Castiel, your local kickass angel
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Post by roseredscare on Mar 14, 2008 14:28:52 GMT -5
But Cameron said the fighters were there to wait for arrival of the Connors, whether John told them that or not has yet to be seen, and the Connor's mission is to stop Skynet. So Derek's idea of saving everyone and fixing all the mistakes isn't really different from what the Connor's are trying to accomplish who are the people he was sent back in time to assumingly help. I'm still not seeing how he was off mission other than killing Andy without permission, like Cameron had if Andy won the chess tournament, and not approaching the Connors when he learned they had arrived (though one can't really blame him for the latter since by that point he was being hunted by Vick).
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Post by allergygal on Mar 14, 2008 15:13:33 GMT -5
But Cameron said the fighters were there to wait for arrival of the Connors, whether John told them that or not has yet to be seen, and the Connor's mission is to stop Skynet. So Derek's idea of saving everyone and fixing all the mistakes isn't really different from what the Connor's are trying to accomplish who are the people he was sent back in time to assumingly help. I'm still not seeing how he was off mission other than killing Andy without permission, like Cameron had if Andy won the chess tournament, and not approaching the Connors when he learned they had arrived (though one can't really blame him for the latter since by that point he was being hunted by Vick). Yes, killing Andy was where I believe Derek went off-mission. Now add that to what he said to John, in the park... "It's beautiful here, isn't it? You stay long enough and you fool yourself into thinking this is how it's always going to be. Then you remember what this place'll look like when it's on fire and... You realize you'll do whatever it takes to keep from watching it burn again." ...and you get a sense that Derek is not just going to work with Sarah and John to try to stop Skynet their way. He has his own plan to do whatever it takes to change the future, even if that means killing every one of the people that Andy worked with. It's the moral struggle over the value human life: Do all these people have to die so that we can win? Do you kill some now to maybe save more later? It's the Miles Dyson scenario all over again. And just like John did with Sarah in T2, I expect at some point he'll put the pieces together and realize what Derek meant at that picnic table in the park (Sarah carved "no fate" into the picnic table at Enrique's in T2 before heading off to kill Dyson). Derek isn't a villain, but he is on the wrong path at the moment.
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roseredscare
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Post by roseredscare on Mar 14, 2008 15:42:53 GMT -5
My feeling of the scene was Derek trying to explain himself to John. I think Derek knows it's only a matter of time before John finds out about Andy and he wants John to understand his reasons without bias and not hate him for his choices. Something like that was missing from the shower scene IMO.
As for Derek in regards to the Connor's way of fighting Skynet, so far he seems to follow the Connors' lead even when he disagrees. He may question them (he thought it was a dumb idea to expect to get the Turk without incident in What He Beheld) or suggest what he thinks is possibly a better alternative (blowing up City Hall in Vick's Chip) but he has always followed their orders like the soldier he is.
And the people Andy worked for, we really don't have anything more than vague connotations to go on about that. Derek hasn't even told them about Andy from D&D, which doesn't really make sense IMO. But I'm on the watch and see wagon as far as these other people Andy mentioned are concerned. But I do believe Derek didn't know about Barbara being followed by Sayles. He didn't kill Barbara so he didn't have anything to hide by lying about it.
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Post by Derek Reese on Mar 14, 2008 16:17:48 GMT -5
I think Sarah just simply considered the fact, that he did a job, that she wasn't willing to do. Although she personally has her issues with the way he handled it.
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Post by allergygal on May 19, 2008 17:06:39 GMT -5
Brought over from the John/Sarah board: A good possibility indeed. But one made more difficult by Reese taking out Andy Goode...and thus far nobody else involved with Skynets creation. Now we have more time I know...but thus far it seems like an exceptionally boneheaded move on Derek's part. Let's see I'll take out the guy who told me he was the only one who tried to calm Skynet down...good thinking there Derek. Not only that, but as far as we know, Derek killed Andy before finding out what other computer scientists he worked with to develop that angry computer mind. So yeah, boneheaded move.
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Post by DerekThomasReese on May 25, 2008 8:01:02 GMT -5
If you remember in Dungeons and Dragons when Derek was giving the mission the his men he looked over at Andy and Andy gave him a nod which i think means that Andy knows that Derek and his men are going back and that he knows what his mission is so he gives him permission to kill his younger self from that nod.It was as if Andy was saying 'i know what you have to do in order from everything to burn again so kill me'.He wanted to be redeemed and when he told Derek about everything he knew that no matter what Derek would kill him.
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Post by Derek Reese on May 25, 2008 14:14:49 GMT -5
I read the moment along similar lines as well.
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Post by allergygal on May 25, 2008 17:59:25 GMT -5
I've contemplated that idea as well — that Andy wanted Derek to kill him when he jumped back to 2007, but I lean more towards the idea that Derek took that upon himself. I'd think if Andy told Derek to kill him, then he also would have given him the names of the other people he worked with and so far, we haven't seen any evidence of Derek having any leads on them. Which leads me to my next Andy Goode theory that I'll go post in the Andy Goode thread.
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Post by Derek Reese on May 25, 2008 22:41:40 GMT -5
There's a possibility that Andy may not even have been aware of those individuals, even then we don't know if their at fault for pulling the trigger on Skynet. It's left up to speculation...
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Post by vicheron on May 25, 2008 23:35:22 GMT -5
I wonder how much Derek actually knows about the past. John didn't tell Kyle what he knew about the past because Kyle's success was contingent upon his ignorance. Maybe Derek is doing exactly what he's supposed to do. Maybe if he really knew what his real mission is, the mission could be compromised. I doubt that Kyle would have done what he did if he was ordered to fall in love with Sarah and knock her up hours before getting killed by the Terminator.
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Post by allergygal on Jun 6, 2008 11:24:13 GMT -5
I wonder how much Derek actually knows about the past. John didn't tell Kyle what he knew about the past because Kyle's success was contingent upon his ignorance. Maybe Derek is doing exactly what he's supposed to do. Maybe if he really knew what his real mission is, the mission could be compromised. I doubt that Kyle would have done what he did if he was ordered to fall in love with Sarah and knock her up hours before getting killed by the Terminator. I wouldn't really consider Kyle falling in love with Sarah and getting her pregnant with John as being part of his mission. It was just what happened and future!John already knew it. But he couldn't tell him or it might alter the way Kyle's time in the past played out. Thinking of it that way, there could be things that Derek does that are important, but that future!John doesn't include as part of his mission because if Derek knew, it might alter his actions. I guess all we really know right now is that future!John sent Derek back to set up a safe house, gather intel and "hang in there baby" until Sarah, John and Cam show up. I think Derek's comment to his buddies (before they jump back): "We can save Kyle, we can save everybody. We can fix all the mistakes." is our indication that he's got his own agenda. Future!John couldn't have already known that Derek was going to kill Andy Goode, though, because if Derek had already done that before, there wouldn't have been a Billy Wisher in 2027. And if future!John didn't know about Derek's plan to kill Andy, he wouldn't have know about what I think is the rest of Derek's plan: to hunt and kill the other computer scientists Andy worked with.
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Post by sandrinha on Jul 11, 2008 15:50:36 GMT -5
I think Derek killed Andy to stop Skynet but like a soldier that he is, he wasn't aware that by doing that he released The Turk to other peoples hands. Derek is a field guy, not a brain/lab guy. He follows and executes orders, and i also think that he is on a mission to reddeem himself for whatever happened in the D&D house scene.
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Post by Derek Reese on Jul 11, 2008 21:23:16 GMT -5
Good points and after rewatching the season, I agree.
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Post by sandrinha on Jul 13, 2008 14:14:33 GMT -5
I don't see him as a bad bad guy at the core of him but we all know that war changes people, and i can't get past the fact that he hates Cameron too much. Yeah he hates all machines, that's a given but in regards to Cameron his hatred is laced with something more.
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