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Post by allergygal on Dec 3, 2009 16:34:25 GMT -5
Oh my. So much to read and think about! I will definitely be getting back into this later tonight. One quick thing, though, in regards to terrasj's post (and to reiterate gothamite): The future!Sarah that would be behind all this would not be from any of the timelines we've seen in the show. She'd be from the timeline prior to what we saw in the pilot. How that timeline would've played out and led to a future!Sarah sending Cameron is wide open.
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terrasj
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Post by terrasj on Dec 3, 2009 16:56:28 GMT -5
gothamite66 - cool Still, I had to put in that disclaimer for just in case any regularly sane person happened to come across it. figaruna - Thats why I put in the little disclaimer at the top. I and many of us, when we get on a roll, do we ever and let it roll out... I had ideas on a bunch of variations, and I enjoy typing when the creativity hits. Guess we'll have to see if any of it actually makes sense or not, Jameron shipping aside. I'm also interested in a possible and likely Future!Sarah and Weaver connection... And a Future!Sarah and Future!Savannah connection. Its all interconnected nicely. I'll just toss this seed from which I'm working from: In Born to Run: John goes with Weaver to the future. Sarah's without a son to hold onto and protect. There is an orphaned Savannah however, even though Elison is sent off to pick her up at preschool, Sarah IMHO would be the next best logical choice to take care of and raise Savannah. Sarah's maternal instincts would kick in, and semi-adopt Savannah as her own. Sarah raises and trains Savannah the same way she brought up John, knowing J-Day will come eventually. Sarah despite her cancer scare also knows if she can't survive til J-Day, she's got to groom Savannah to fill in for John's place until the point in future John arrives with Weaver. Sarah and Savannah survive J-Day. Sarah ends up filling in John's shoes as voice & leader of the resistance. Savannah's her second in command, and the day comes a young adult shows up in an underground bunker - claims his name is John Connor. Incidentally young Savannah is also now John's age. Its a bit of a paradox, but Future!Sarah in the course of things befriends a T1001, possibly from the rogue faction. Since Savannah is also on SkyNet's hit-list, Future!Sarah sends back the T1001 known as Catherine, to watch over Savannah while Cam's sent to watch over John. Catherine's also a redundant backup plan to watch over John in the event anything happens to either her past self, or Cameron. Endoskeletons can be dismantled but liquid polymimic metal is almost impossible to decapitate and destroy. Catherine's ultimate purpose is akin to a Watchmen. Unfortunately, SkyNet targets and kills Savannah's parents before Catherine can arrive at the scene. Catherine deals with SkyNet's Terminator, assumes the appearance of Savannah's mother and rescues Savanah. While Catherine had her own ulterior agenda, to upstart an anti-skynet, create the ebbing for a Rogue Faction starting with John Henry. Thus in Weaver's basement, Catherine essentially swaps parental roles with Sarah. Catherine leaves into the future, making sure John is under her protection, while she knowingly leaves Savannah behind to be looked after in Sarah's care. In addition Catherine knowingly gives Savannah a more capable mother, something Catherine knew herself was challenged to fill. However breif, Catherine also realizes the experiance and maternal instincts Future!Sarah had imparted on her, expanding Catherine's knowledge and view of humanity's most important gifts - children. With this, Catherine fully realizes her responsibility to watch over John in the future (having already saved his and Sarah's life up in her office). Since we're all working on crack!theory, might as well make it a well rounded one
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Post by littleb on Dec 4, 2009 4:37:28 GMT -5
But I think future!Sarah wanted to go back and change John's fate and give him a normal life. Problem is, if he falls for metal (as is seemingly the plan?) then he won't have a normal life, he'll have the one that our Sarah is so desperate to have him avoid ("People matter John, they're all that matters.") I just can't see Sarah going in that direction. <laughs> You and your crack!theories. I think this one is going to take a lot of work for me. I can't get over the Metal!Love thing, I just cannot see Sarah going there. Okay. But it'd still be Sarah. Her qualities and opinions and values would be transferable to whichever version we're thinking about. So, in this theory it'd be a post J-day Sarah? So she'd be desperate... <shakes head> naw, I'm still not buying it! That's a great quote taken in that context. But I can't get past this: Sarah: Were you gonna kill that cop? Don't answer that. Don't wanna know. We need rules. Aren't you supposed to take orders or something like that? Cameron: I do. From John. Sarah: From John. So if I tell John to forbid you... Cameron: Not this John. Sarah: Not this John. Aren't they the same? Cameron: Not yet. Cameron had a perfect opportunity there to turn around and yah-boo-sucks Sarah. But she didn't. She wouldn't necessarily have had to outright state "you sent me back to seduce your son" (I think that would've led to an immediate de-chipping!) but she could've revealed that it was Sarah behind her mission. Even if it was just to mess with Sarah's head (and you know that it totally would've!) She had another opportunity (also in Gnothi) where she could've revealed all, but instead she tells Sarah that John "sent us here to fight." I know I'm taking Cam at face value (always a risk!) but I think if the writers were heading down the Sarah sent Cam back path, the hints would've started there...
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terrasj
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Post by terrasj on Dec 4, 2009 7:07:08 GMT -5
That's a great quote taken in that context. But I can't get past this: Sarah: Were you gonna kill that cop? Don't answer that. Don't wanna know. We need rules. Aren't you supposed to take orders or something like that? Cameron: I do. From John. Sarah: From John. So if I tell John to forbid you... Cameron: Not this John. Sarah: Not this John. Aren't they the same? Cameron: Not yet. Cameron had a perfect opportunity there to turn around and yah-boo-sucks Sarah. But she didn't. She wouldn't necessarily have had to outright state "you sent me back to seduce your son" (I think that would've led to an immediate de-chipping!) but she could've revealed that it was Sarah behind her mission. Even if it was just to mess with Sarah's head (and you know that it totally would've!) She had another opportunity (also in Gnothi) where she could've revealed all, but instead she tells Sarah that John "sent us here to fight." I know I'm taking Cam at face value (always a risk!) but I think if the writers were heading down the Sarah sent Cam back path, the hints would've started there... I've got 2 counters here for you: 1.) Even though Future!Sarah might've / could've sent Cameron back, Cameron still could've been originally 'turned' by John's persuasion and reasoning (and part Alison memory glitch overiding base SkyNet protocols. Cameron is able to choose and do easily enough in 02x01.) Therefore, behind Future!Sarah's back / without her knowledge, John gives Cameron a set of orders and parameters to follow. Goes well with the fact the two spent alot of time together in the future before getting sent back (referenced again what Cam said a few times to John in the present. Cam didn't specify how old was Future!John, or rather how much older than present self.) 2.) So what if even Future!Sarah actually was the person who Cameron had to follow orders from? Maybe Future!Sarah would know herself all too well what her younger self would do and think if she knew Cameron was really taking orders from herself. Just think about this for a moment - Can you picture how much different Present!Sarah would've acted and re-acted towards Cameron if she knew Little Tin Miss "Cameron" was literally made to follow her orders, just from a future!self? Can we say Sarah would have that nasty all-knowing glint in her eye, a smirk to match that would go with the caption "Mama Connor owns Little Tin Miss to do her bidding" Can anyone imagine the God complex ego Sarah would develop? If we thought she was diving off the deep end crazy with those 3 dots, this would've inflated Sarah's ego but good. Future!Sarah probably knew that and had Cameron handily lie to save her own younger sanity. Even adding in a little Cancer scare (that would make Sarah majorly resent Cameron once she survives J-Day fine and healthily), Future!Sarah would've knowingly done this for her own younger self's good... I know, theres ample reason to counter my own ideas here regarding John turning Cameron over to his side (get her to choose sides and self override SkyNet's protocols) with Kyle Reese's original lines back from T1 - A machine can't be bargained / reasoned with" . Except only that the machines Kyle was referring to didn't take into account a female 715 infiltrator model built in Alison's image, and impregnated with Alison's memories and quite possibly feelings and emotions from having fallen in love with John Connor. (Thats likely John's vice over Cameron, always)
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Post by allergygal on Dec 5, 2009 6:31:13 GMT -5
But I think future!Sarah wanted to go back and change John's fate and give him a normal life. Problem is, if he falls for metal (as is seemingly the plan?) then he won't have a normal life, he'll have the one that our Sarah is so desperate to have him avoid ("People matter John, they're all that matters.") I just can't see Sarah going in that direction. <laughs> You and your crack!theories. I think this one is going to take a lot of work for me. I can't get over the Metal!Love thing, I just cannot see Sarah going there. No, me either. But it does mirror Jesse's use of a teen girl to manipulate John and you know how our show loves those mirrors. It would have to be that Sarah thought that was the only way she could get him to leap into the future without her. We know he wanted Sarah to come with him, but she stepped out and he went ahead anyway because the lure of Cameron was stronger than the loss of Sarah or the death of the human race. Sarah would remember that teen-John was a douchebag and perhaps predict he would make that choice under those circumstances She could've gone the Jesse route and used a human girl for the mission, but then present-day Sarah would not have a "weapon" to help fight the metal and help protect John. Anyway, human beings can't be replaced. You send a real girl and there's a 100% chance she'd end up dead. I don't believe Cameron when she says John sent her. When she says she takes orders from future!John, though, I do believe her. I think John reprogrammed her to be his personal assistant/bodyguard and so part of that programming included following his orders. Now imagine future!John was killed. Cameron would no longer have anything to do — no purpose, without John. Enter Sarah. She's devastated over John's death. The resistance isn't doing so great and her son is dead. She wonders what the point of it all was. Why did she make him spend his entire life training, preparing and moving from place to place? It wasn't a choice he ever even got to make; it was thrust on him from birth. And if Sarah could go back and do it all over again, she'd do things differently. But the most she can do is use time travel to affect a change. She can set in motion a series of events that will likely prevent John from having to live through the horrors of j-day and its aftermath, be imprisoned in a Skynet work camp, form the resistance, send his own father back through time to die, and then die in future war himself. She can give him a shot at a normal life. So Sarah recruits Cameron, who agrees to take the mission because it fits within her directives to protect John. She has a purpose again and Sarah sends her back to protect John from Cromartie and human bad guys and future war itself. They save him. They save his life. Any good?
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terrasj
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Post by terrasj on Dec 5, 2009 22:09:06 GMT -5
I don't believe Cameron when she says John sent her. When she says she takes orders from future!John, though, I do believe her. I think John reprogrammed her to be his personal assistant/bodyguard and so part of that programming included following his orders. Now imagine future!John was killed. Cameron would no longer have anything to do — no purpose, without John. Enter Sarah. She's devastated over John's death. The resistance isn't doing so great and her son is dead. She wonders what the point of it all was. Why did she make him spend his entire life training, preparing and moving from place to place? It wasn't a choice he ever even got to make; it was thrust on him from birth. And if Sarah could go back and do it all over again, she'd do things differently. But the most she can do is use time travel to affect a change. She can set in motion a series of events that will likely prevent John from having to live through the horrors of j-day and its aftermath, be imprisoned in a Skynet work camp, form the resistance, send his own father back through time to die, and then die in future war himself. She can give him a shot at a normal life. So Sarah recruits Cameron, who agrees to take the mission because it fits within her directives to protect John. She has a purpose again and Sarah sends her back to protect John from Cromartie and human bad guys and future war itself. They save him. They save his life. Any good? Certainly sounds interesting Though I'm wondering how Future!Sarah didn't notice Future!John spending alot of time with Cameron to have those long late night chats. Especially if we're talking Future!John here, and Cameron being this young hot little number. I'll take a reasonable guess John was so over worked, constantly busy, borderline insomniac, those chats allowed John to get comfortable, talk non-command plans, and drift to sleep. So in essence Cameron fit well in keeping him company and watching over him as he slept. (doesn't have to imply anything romantic going on, could've been mutually platonic) I can only guess that Future!Sarah was distraught enough that Cameron came up to her and had she realized they both had John's loss in common. Cameron did her best to console Sarah and Sarah (while still grieving) decided there'd be a slim chance Cameron might be able to save John in the past, change things enough so this same turn of events didn't happen. Though I'm also wondering that if after a while, Future!Sarah woke up a bit, and begun regretting having sent back Cameron. Especially if Sarah didn't like Cameron's constant presence around John in the first place as an adult man. Let alone a young man in his late teens where Cameron would appear as the same age. A little bit of irony there since thats what Sarah half based sending Cameron back in the first place - being of similar age she'd be able to goto school with him, providing constant 24/7 watch over him... Also wonder if Sarah didn't end up sending Catherine (possibly Future!Sarah's own trusted Terminator bodygaurd) back in time as a backup / failsafe... Just a few thoughts there... crack!theory's shaping up good though
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schmacky
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Post by schmacky on Dec 6, 2009 2:07:14 GMT -5
Want to go a lil more cracky?? Let's say Cameron was never Future!John's personal bodyguard.. but that she was Future!Sarah's. John still reprogrammed her and everything. She still took orders from John. But everything she knows about John? Maybe it's because of Sarah. Because Cameron would spend a lot of time around Sarah in protecting her and blah blah.
-The Wizard of Oz.. we've seen that story mean something to Sarah (in the present) but not really John. It could have been Future!Sarah told Cameron that it was John's favorite book as a child. It reminds me of the alternate scene in To The Lighthouse where John is doing the voice-over and at the end he says how it wasn't his favorite legend, it was Sarah's. She *thinks* it's John's favorite this or that but it isn't. Anyway, she tells Cameron this...
-"Just like that little bitch that follows Connor everywhere." Dietz says that in Today is the Day part 2. Maybe it wasn't John, maybe it was Sarah...
So anyway, Future!Sarah has this rapport with Cameron. John is dead, they're keeping that information from the Resistance at the moment, Future!Sarah sends/agrees for Cameron to go back and protect John and follow Sarah's orders (without letting Sarah know she follows her orders).
Ahh, but it goes back to why would Sarah send Cameron back knowing that her younger self would flippin HATE it? Well, Future!Sarah would know Sarah would get over it and learn to be a type of cohesive team with Cameron. Why would she know that? Because she already did that with Cameron the first time around when John reprogrammed her.
But why oh why would Future!Sarah tell Cameron she has cancer? Or why would Cameron take it upon herself to tell Sarah she has cancer? Does it go back to Cameron distracting Sarah so that a wedge can be placed between mother and son to achieve the ultimate goal of getting him to go to the future?
Sure, let's say so lol.
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Post by allergygal on Dec 6, 2009 17:32:16 GMT -5
Certainly sounds interesting Though I'm wondering how Future!Sarah didn't notice Future!John spending alot of time with Cameron to have those long late night chats. Especially if we're talking Future!John here, and Cameron being this young hot little number. She did know. The plan wouldn't have worked otherwise. If I'm going all in on this theory, then Sarah was counting on John becoming so attached to Cameron that he'd make the leap to the future to go after her, thereby wiping out his importance. And that would free him to live his life. Though I'm also wondering that if after a while, Future!Sarah woke up a bit, and begun regretting having sent back Cameron. Especially if Sarah didn't like Cameron's constant presence around John in the first place as an adult man. Let alone a young man in his late teens where Cameron would appear as the same age. A little bit of irony there since thats what Sarah half based sending Cameron back in the first place - being of similar age she'd be able to goto school with him, providing constant 24/7 watch over him... I don't think Sarah would've actually been around John much, if at all, in the future. My guess about this previous timeline we're dealing with is that at some point (probably in 1999) Sarah got arrested. That would've left John alone at the age of 16, on the run. And it's because of that separation from Sarah that the future didn't turn out quite right. Also wonder if Sarah didn't end up sending Catherine (possibly Future!Sarah's own trusted Terminator bodygaurd) back in time as a backup / failsafe... Just a few thoughts there... crack!theory's shaping up good though Yeah, I wonder about that too. If future!Sarah intended it all to play out like it actually did in BTR, though, I think that means she would've known about Weaver and John Henry and The Turk and Weaver's time machine. So I've still got a long to go just to cross the border from cracky to wacky!
Want to go a lil more cracky?? Let's say Cameron was never Future!John's personal bodyguard.. but that she was Future!Sarah's. John still reprogrammed her and everything. She still took orders from John. But everything she knows about John? Maybe it's because of Sarah. Because Cameron would spend a lot of time around Sarah in protecting her and blah blah. -The Wizard of Oz.. we've seen that story mean something to Sarah (in the present) but not really John. It could have been Future!Sarah told Cameron that it was John's favorite book as a child. It reminds me of the alternate scene in To The Lighthouse where John is doing the voice-over and at the end he says how it wasn't his favorite legend, it was Sarah's. She *thinks* it's John's favorite this or that but it isn't. Anyway, she tells Cameron this... -"Just like that little bitch that follows Connor everywhere." Dietz says that in Today is the Day part 2. Maybe it wasn't John, maybe it was Sarah... So anyway, Future!Sarah has this rapport with Cameron. John is dead, they're keeping that information from the Resistance at the moment, Future!Sarah sends/agrees for Cameron to go back and protect John and follow Sarah's orders (without letting Sarah know she follows her orders). That might be too cracky... even for me! Although the idea that Sarah and Cameron together were running the resistance after John was killed could be interesting. I find it hard to buddy them up, though, except for the purpose of saving John. Then again, present-day Sarah was willing to have Cameron around because she was useful. "...to forever be vigilant, to forever protect." That's the end of that last voiceover we get in season 2, so if we go back to the idea we've talked about before — that the voiceovers are coming from future!Sarah, then it could totally play into this theory. Ahh, but it goes back to why would Sarah send Cameron back knowing that her younger self would flippin HATE it? Well, Future!Sarah would know Sarah would get over it and learn to be a type of cohesive team with Cameron. Why would she know that? Because she already did that with Cameron the first time around when John reprogrammed her. I think it's even simpler than that. Cameron was a weapon, she could help protect John, so future!Sarah knew that present-day Sarah would tolerate her presence. But why oh why would Future!Sarah tell Cameron she has cancer? Or why would Cameron take it upon herself to tell Sarah she has cancer? Does it go back to Cameron distracting Sarah so that a wedge can be placed between mother and son to achieve the ultimate goal of getting him to go to the future? Yes, I think the cancer lie would still be a manipulation tactic. It kept Sarah distracted so Cameron had a greater influence over John, it motivated Sarah to fight hard, and I guess I'll have to believe that it played into the time jump in BTR. Future!Sarah knew that if her present-day self thought she was dying, she'd be more likely to let John go, just as she'd been willing to give him up when she thought she was never getting out of Pescadero.
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Post by aztalanturf on Dec 9, 2009 0:06:08 GMT -5
I'm enjoying reading the crack theories. Very interesting stuff. I don't think Sarah sent Cameron back, but it's definitely not impossible and it's fun to entertain the idea. Sure would be one hell of a twist if that was what really happened. Not sure I'll jump in on the crack theories any time soon, but I figured I should at least chime in since I've been reading this thread.
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Post by allergygal on Dec 9, 2009 2:25:59 GMT -5
I'm enjoying reading the crack theories. Very interesting stuff. I don't think Sarah sent Cameron back, but it's definitely not impossible and it's fun to entertain the idea. Sure would be one hell of a twist if that was what really happened. Not sure I'll jump in on the crack theories any time soon, but I figured I should at least chime in since I've been reading this thread. I don't really think I can make this work, but I'm having fun trying So while I still sorta see the possibility of a Future!Sarah orchestrating a separation between herself and her son for "his own good," that particular piece of dialogue will always nag at me... Is there something even crackier than crack!theory? Because I was thinking about that quote and I'm about to dig myself in deeper... Suppose Sarah sent Cameron back just like we've been talking about, but about 3 seconds after Cameron left, Sarah knew she couldn't live with it. So she sent Jesse to intervene. Too far?
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terrasj
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Post by terrasj on Dec 9, 2009 6:02:42 GMT -5
Is there something even crackier than crack!theory? Because I was thinking about that quote and I'm about to dig myself in deeper...
Suppose Sarah sent Cameron back just like we've been talking about, but about 3 seconds after Cameron left, Sarah knew she couldn't live with it. So she sent Jesse to intervene.
Too far?
Sounds reasonable, i think it works. Having Sarah given into rash judgment then quickly regretted it. Given Jesse's anti-Cameron to start with. Two wrongs don't make a right, but it does make sense. Given how Jesse brought along Riley to steer / distract John away from Cameron. And ironically the plan works too well and then backfires, causing John to rebel and get reckless, putting everyone endanger around him. Whether or not Riley was part of Sarah's knowledge or Jesse's own brilliance remains to be seen. And it had gone to show that ultimately, Cameron was the wiser and safer course of action. So what if John begins to develop romantic inclinations towards Cameron, or actually a romance does blossom. John's already pre-disposition-ed towards protective Terminators since Uncle Bob. Cameron wouldn't have let John run off, probably at the farthest to the garage out back to spend some alone time with. Its practically a terminator-verse Romeo and Juliet. My founding reason for Jameron shipping. Keep on it A.G!
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figaruna
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Post by figaruna on Dec 9, 2009 14:39:00 GMT -5
Is there something even crackier than crack!theory? Because I was thinking about that quote and I'm about to dig myself in deeper... Suppose Sarah sent Cameron back just like we've been talking about, but about 3 seconds after Cameron left, Sarah knew she couldn't live with it. So she sent Jesse to intervene. Too far? .... o____O ... I think I might have to marinate on that one for a little while... LOL!
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Post by allergygal on Dec 10, 2009 2:57:31 GMT -5
Is there something even crackier than crack!theory? Because I was thinking about that quote and I'm about to dig myself in deeper... Suppose Sarah sent Cameron back just like we've been talking about, but about 3 seconds after Cameron left, Sarah knew she couldn't live with it. So she sent Jesse to intervene. Too far? .... o____O ... I think I might have to marinate on that one for a little while... LOL! Hey, I was just trying to bring some regret into Sarah's decision. But you are wise not to bite ;D Sounds reasonable, i think it works. Having Sarah given into rash judgment then quickly regretted it. Given Jesse's anti-Cameron to start with. Two wrongs don't make a right, but it does make sense. Given how Jesse brought along Riley to steer / distract John away from Cameron. And ironically the plan works too well and then backfires, causing John to rebel and get reckless, putting everyone endanger around him. Whether or not Riley was part of Sarah's knowledge or Jesse's own brilliance remains to be seen. And it had gone to show that ultimately, Cameron was the wiser and safer course of action. So what if John begins to develop romantic inclinations towards Cameron, or actually a romance does blossom. John's already pre-disposition-ed towards protective Terminators since Uncle Bob. Cameron wouldn't have let John run off, probably at the farthest to the garage out back to spend some alone time with. Its practically a terminator-verse Romeo and Juliet. My founding reason for Jameron shipping. Keep on it A.G! If Sarah did send Jesse to counteract Cameron, there's no way Riley would've been part of the plan. Sarah would never go along with the idea of using a girl as bait (remember those mean glances she shot at Derek after Derek dragged that little girl into the alley in WHB?). So that would have to be all Jesse's secret idea. I should probably quit before I make a total fool of myself, but what fun would that be? So I'll press on and suggest that future!Sarah sent Jesse back with the simple mission to find Derek (so he could vouch for her) and then deliver a message to Sarah that Cameron was manipulating them. but Jesse took it upon herself to go further with it and brought Riley. I replied to this in the BTR thread.
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terrasj
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Post by terrasj on Dec 10, 2009 10:16:45 GMT -5
Well, keep on working on it A.G. Don't give up. Its got however few of us thats left, gives us all something to keep on thinking about, and a good reason to keep checking in daily. Your crack!theory is really shaping up and rounding out nicely, to something thats actually sensible and imho, credible. (will be enjoying the Cameron crack!theory also, along with the rest of the theories for the party)
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terrasj
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Post by terrasj on Dec 28, 2009 23:33:00 GMT -5
Any progress on that crack!theory A.G?
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