Trapping a Terminator

[aceplace57]

Episode 5, Goodbye for All gave me an idea....

John Connor makes excellent Terminator bait. But, it's a dangerous tactic.
What if Sarah hired an artist to create a life mask of John's head? They could use the mold to cast several heads. Cameron could accurately paint them to perfectly match John's skin tone and features. We saw Cameron replicate a bar code door pass in Automatic for People. She could easily replicate every freckle, mole etc. on John's face.

Next time they need to battle a Terminator the dummy could be used to setup a trap. MP3 player recording... "I'm John Connor" and the Terminator would walk into the trap. ;D

It might just work. Artists and Fx guys create life masks all the time. Mythbusters made one of Grant Imahara (on Camera). They've used that mold several times to cast ballistic gel heads for experiments. But, you could easily cast with a plastic resin too.

It's time for the Connors to start thinking instead of running.

Let's discuss ways to trap and kill Terminators!

[Big Brother]

Hmmm...a static mannequin with a John Connor head, no matter how realistically painted, will still look fake to a human eye. Terminators may be somewhat easier to fool (face/pattern recognition is something computers have a hard time with) but you'd still probably want an animatronic version. Or some other means of obscuring the artificiality for a few crucial seconds. Being behind a pane of smoked glass, through a thicket of bamboo, et cetera. This may be an interesting idea, but this kind of non-obvious plot idea should probably not be aired in a forum the writers visit, because it opens up unfortuante legal cans of worms.

[richardstevenhack]

Put the mask on Cameron and let her imitate John's voice.

Solves that problem.

Could even get rid of the mask - just let her wear something that covers her like in the pilot and imitate the voice. Cromartie fell for that one. Maybe he won't a second time, but some other Terminator might.

Actually you could use almost anyone the Terminator thinks could lead him to Connor as bait. Just establish the connection for the Terminator and hang the bait out to dry.

Cromartie did it - what's good for the goose...

I vote we use Riley - she's really annoying anyway.

Maybe Ellison is smarter than I think - maybe he's trying to use Weaver to get to another Terminator just so he can expose Weaver. Given Ellison knows the story about Cyberdyne, you'd think he'd put 2 and 2 together and realize that Weaver and her corporation is clearly trying to create Skynet - which automatically puts her on the bad side. She admitted she was trying to duplicate the technology - Ellison isn't about to allow that.

One of the two of them is going to end up dead this season, I suspect.

And Weaver, I think, is trying to set a trap for Cameron. One hopes the Connors turn that against her and set a trap for her - once they find out about her. The problem is they'd better figure out she's a T-1000 variant before they do, or they could be in big trouble. Trapping her is going to be a LOT harder than dumping her in a tar pit. Without some heavy duty electric furnace or a steel mill or some liquid nitrogen, that is...

Fortunately the Connors have "been there, done that" - all they need is to spot her model.

[aceplace57]

The mask idea came from the facial recognition software that came out a few years ago. They scan crowds looking for known criminals. The Terminators seem to use an advanced version of it to identify targets. A very well crafted mask should easily fool the software.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facial_recognition_system

There's a lot of traditional traps that might work. I've wondered how a terminator would deal with a snare that leaves him seven feet in the air, up side down, hanging by their foot. Are they flexible enough to reach up and rip the rope apart with their hands? Maybe their joints can't rotate enough to do that. It's an interesting question writers could debate & explore. Much like the "can they swim debate".

Anyway, it's fun to think about ways to deal with Terminators. You can't always count on tar pits when you really need them.

[richardstevenhack]

It's like I was speculating earlier here about what a martial artist might be able to do with a Terminator. While the hard contact karate guys would be breaking their hands, and the Brazilian jiu-jitsu guys would be trying to choke out a machine that doesn't breath, I bet an aikido master like Ueshiba, the inventor of the art, could still throw a Terminator head first into a wall.

And maybe if the guy is fast enough, he can evade a Terminator. We haven't really seen Terminators moving fast, although clearly they should be able to. Most of the time they just walk purposefully, and occasionally they run fast. And we saw Arnie snatch a shotgun out of a guy's hand. And we saw Cameron karate-chopping Vic in episode two of last season. But most of the time they move pretty slow. It almost seems like its the directors' idea that their pursuit is machine-like and inevitable, so they don't have to move fast.

I noticed in watching GTAT again that Derek shoots the Terminator in the leg after shooting him a couple times in the torso with the .50 caliber. He knee-capped the Terminator to make him fall into the tar pit. That was clever. Derek also shoots him precisely in the right forehead where the chip is - which explains why Derek shot Sarkissian's thug there - that's where he's trained to aim. And it works just as well for humans as for Terminators, since in humans that's where the motor control is.

i wonder if the Terminator endoskeletons are so tough that they can't be cut by, say, one of those "monomolecular blades" you see in the cyberpunk sci-fi stories - a blade which is so sharp it actually can cut between the molecules of the material it's being used on. I wonder if Wolverine's "Adamantium" claws could chop one's head off. ;D ;D

Given the effectiveness of the thermite grenade in GTAT, I wonder if you coated a thermite grenade with a highly sticky material and tossed it at a Terminator so that it stuck until it ignited whether it would do enough damage depending on where it hit to cripple or destroy one. My impression of thermite grenades from back in my Army days was that they generated a lot of heat but they pretty much melted right INTO something like an engine block. That wouldn't necessarily melt down the entire Terminator.

One of the Terminator comics had the humans make a big "Taser" that basically sucked the power from most of a small town through a big cable to it to fry a Terminator. Given current technology, I wonder how easy it would be to produce a device - sized like a rifle or wand with a power backpack or something - that would produce enough "zap" to drop a Terminator long enough to drop a thermite grenade on him. They managed to zap Cameron with an ordinary 120V power source in episode one. If they hadn't bother to try to remove her chip and happened to have a thermite grenade, she would have been history. Just drop the grenade on her face and let her head and chip melt.

Of course, she didn't have a gun on her at the time. She lost that when the tank exploded. Otherwise, John would have died in the truck garage. So you'd have to be sure the Terminator wasn't armed before you tried something with an electrical device as mentioned.

One way to get rid of even a T-1000 would be to lure them into a trap, dump a canister of thermite mixed with a sticky substance so they ended up coated in thermite, then fire a flare at them - instant 4,000 degrees. That would take out any Terminator.

There's also a substance I read about which is used to mix with water in fire hoses to make the water more "slippery' so it comes out faster with more pressure. Mix some of that, coat or flood the floor with it, see if the Terminator can stay on his feet. When he goes down, thermite grenade him.

I predict Derek will be loading crates of thermite grenades into the back shed once the writers think about this stuff.

Actually, those EFP's the boys were using in GTAT would be sufficient, as long as you could get a Terminator close enough to one. Those things produce a molten jet of metal that can penetrate a tank, it should be able to penetrate the endoskeleton.

One major advantage the Connors have over Terminators in this time is that the Terminators have no "backup." Get one in a pickle, he's had it. There are no "Ogres" or "HK's" to come back him up.

Which is why it would be interesting to see Skynet send back a TEAM of two or more Terminators working together. One acts as bait for the Connors, the others move in when the Connors have compromised themselves. Frankly, if the Connors ever confront two Terminators at once, they're dead meat. They just don't have the firepower to deal with it, even if they can get Cameron to battle it out with one while they try to deal with the other. And if the Terminators had a team of humans with them, like Terminator Carter did in "Heavy Metal", the Connors would be history.

Writers, oh, writers! ;D ;D

[vicheron]

I think that Skynet's forces would have very advanced scout units. Even though Terminators possess superior senses than humans, they are not the best. I'm guessing that machines that are built specifically for gathering intel would be able to track by scent like bloodhounds, have vision far superior to that of Terminators, with excellent night vision, along with some manner of echolocation for mapping the sewers and tunnels humans hide in, and the ability to detect vibrations in the ground caused by human footsteps. A Terminator might be fooled by a decoy but accompanying scout units with superior sensors would probably be able to see through the deception.

I'm guess the Resistance also use as many ways of gathering intel as they can. They obviously use dogs to detect Terminator. They probably use dogs for a lot of other things. You never know if a recently escaped prisoner has been implanted with a tracking device or a bomb. They might use birds as scouts. I bet that they would know that something the size of an ogre is coming long before they can see it by putting their ears to the ground. That could also be a way to track Terminators as I would imagine Terminators walk in a manner that allows them to be distinguished from real humans. Blasted cities allows plenty of opportunities for traps. They could blow up the sewers and tunnels under the machines. Something the size of an HK or an Ogre would be especially vulnerable to that kind of trap. Of course, Skynet would learn of this problem very quickly and either attempt to control the sewers and tunnels or just not use streets and roads. However, the cities are full of underground pipes and power lines that allow for all manners of fun activities.

As for trapping Terminators. I think that strong adhesives would be very effective in hindering and disabling them, allowing them to be captured and reprogrammed. The problem is that they're not very practical.

[richardstevenhack]

That part about testing released prisoners is good. I'm still wondering how the hell Derek Reese got anywhere near future John, given that he was captured, interrogated, then released for no known reason.

If I were John, Derek wouldn't have gotten anywhere near me without being debriefed, probed, given truth serum, hypnotized, scanned, and quarantined, you betcha. Like the first hit in the movie "Hit Man" where Agent 47 makes Ovei's brother swallow a pound of C-4, then sews up his mouth and delivers him to Ovei's men who dutifully bring him straight to Ovei, where Agent 47 can blow them all up.

His whole squad should have been suspect until proven otherwise. Especially after they just caught Cameron, a replica of Allison Young!

[potomac79]

I think the major problem with a life mask of John is the the organic and thermal profiles would be wrong. Terminators seem to have a keen recognition subroutine that is based on much more than simple vision. Terminators seem to be able to tag other terminators in spite of their (presumably body-temperature) organic covering.

As for the thermite grenades...I'm still a little squirrelly about them. First, thermite tends to cause only localized, downward destruction. Second, its inherent stability can be a problem as it can be difficult to ignite...not the sort of thing you want to wait for. Considering that thermite will burn somewhere between 2000-2500^oC there is also the hazard of collateral damage. Too many obviously thermite-caused fires will "get you on the radar"...then the feds will start tracking sales of aluminum and iron-oxide powders.

Does raise an interesting thought: can a T100x be decommissioned using thermite? It would certainly be a lot easier than lugging around a metal foundry.

Just as with lions on the savanna, it's probably best to not try to bait something this dangerous too often. In the world of terminators, I think identifying the threats and laying traps works best (witness the downing of Cameron at the church in 0201).

[aceplace57]

I wrote a fan fic and used limpet mine technology to destroy a terminator. Underwater divers in WWII attached limpet mines to ships. That focuses all the charge to the hull. They use very strong magnets and I doubt even a terminator could pull it off before it exploded. They'd even work on the T-1000. I wouldn't volunteer to attach it to a Terminator. That could be a suicide mission. TSCC needs red shirts for jobs like that. ;D

Magnetism is the only thing that seems to work on T-1000. It held the T-1000 for awhile in T3. You can't tie them up, hold them in a cell or fight them. It's almost a doomsday type character. Anybody that tries to fight the T-1000 will die or get captured. I'm not sure what team Connor can possibly do to fight Catherine. Maybe they could lure her to an auto salvage yard with a magnetic crane that picks up car bodys. It would be funny to see the T-1000 40 feet in the air and stuck to that magnet. But, sooner or later the crane will run out of diesel and she'd get free.

[richardstevenhack]

An adequately large shaped charge would probably destroy any Terminator less than a T-1000. That's why the Resistance uses EFP (Explosively Formed Penetrators) in the last episode. A shaped charge works by focusing the explosive force in a particular direction. Improvised shaped charges aren't that hard to make, although the EFPs require machining work. A well-done EFP can fire a molten blob of steel at high temperature through considerable armor. It would definitely destroy any Terminator less than a T-1000.

The problem with the T-1000s is that they can continue to function even if a large part of their structure has been destroyed. They can also more easily self-repair than any other Terminator - even if they have been almost completely disintegrated (but the blobs have not been destroyed.).

Still, a big enough EFP might destroy a T-1000.

I was sort of surprised that Derek's special-purpose anti-materiel round from his .50 caliber did as much damage at close range to the Terminator as it did. It just about destroyed the upper right portion of the cranium and presumably damaged or destroyed the chip. (Which, by the way, also explained why Derek just happened to shoot the right place in the forehead of the Sarkissian thug - he's trained to shoot there since that's where the Terminator chip is - and that spot also houses the motor controls in a human brain.)

I don't think they should make Terminators too vulnerable to that sort of thing. I think it would be better for the concept if Terminators required some sort of explosive, high heat or electrical arc to destroy them. Cameron destroyed one with a grenade launcher. Plasma rifles from the future would do it. A .50 caliber armor piercing slug is just about the smallest weapon that should be allowed to do significant damage to a Terminator - and that has to be at close range like in last week's episode. Anything smaller than that should be mostly useless - unless the Terminator gets shot a LOT - like, say, from a 7.62mm minigun firing armor-piercing rounds. Cameron's use of a 9mm subgun against Vic was almost completely useless, as a 9mm - even with "armor piercing" rounds (designed to penetrate body armor) simply doesn't have the power to do anything against steel.

[Big Brother]

Yeah, a shotgun firing solid slugs might knock it back, but you're not gonna do significant damage to the endoskeleton with that. Anything with pistol-caliber rounds, or even rifle-caliber, isn't gonna do much. A good burst with full auto with such a weapon might also knock it back, but that's about it. A flamethrower might inconvenience it a bit, destroying the flesh covering, but probably isn't gonna harm the endoskeleton.

A heavy machine gun might do some damage, and that's basically what Derek used, but on semi-auto rather than full-auto. Grenade launchers, bazookas, and other weapons that fire large explosive warheads are probably the only man-portable weapons with a reasonable chance of killing a terminator. Medium-size cannons (like the 25mm gun on a Bradley Fighting Vehicle) are probably also a good bet. At some point, I'd really like to see a Terminator battled at an Army base and see the troops have to take it down with such a weapon. Might be nice for a season finale cliffhanger, with the government's nose rubbed in the existence of terminators in such a manner. Could be a good "now what?" moment, with the government having to figure out how to fight these things and still keep it a secret from the general populace. Not so much to avoid panic, but because the government doesn't want to admit that the Skynet that's sending these things was originally a US Military project, even if one from what's now an alternate timeline. It could also be a good way to end a season with what could either be the aforementioned now-what cliffhanger, or a somewhat satisfactory series finale if there's a good chance the show might not get picked up for a subsequent season. If we get another year of the show, fine, we get to see the government (or at least part of it) as uneasy allies with the Connors. If we don't, then we can assume that, with the Army now alert to the existence of Skynet and Termniators, A) The US military at least ain't gonna be building a Skynet AI and giving it control of nukes any time soon, so Skynet may not be built, at least not in anything recognizable as its original form, and B) the Connors probably now have access to the kind of military hardware needed to seriously fight the terminators, a platoon of US Marines armed with APC's and RPG's to guard them at all times, and active help from the FBI to locate any other Terminators and Skynet agents that need to be stopped. The war is effectively won, even if Skynet doesn't know it yet. Of course, if we DO get picked up, some of this could be very fun to watch, and they could always throw in a faction within the government that is so arrogant and stupid that they still want to build Skynet or something similar, confident that they can "control" it. Or a faction controlled by Weaver or other Skynet agents.

[vicheron]

Or maybe Presidential candidate Catherine Weaver. Oh wait, we already have Hilary Clinton.

[Big Brother]

Oct 14, 2008 21:12:03 GMT -5 vicheron said:

Or maybe Presidential candidate Catherine Weaver. Oh wait, we already have Hilary Clinton.

Ya know, while I was writing my post, I actually thought about suggesting having a liquid metal terminator kill and replace the president, or some other top official as a plot idea. But it's hard to maintain willing suspension of disbelief if you replace too many well-known political figures with fictional characters. And they'd kill their chances of future pentagon or other governmental cooperation if they started killing off real political figures in the story.

Although that gives me an idea for a possible fanfic involving a terminator replacing Vladimir Putin...heh heh heh...who'd notice?

[aceplace57]

Alpine Fields mentioned that Future Terminators/Harvesters etc. used Thermal imaging to hunt humans at night.

That brings up an interesting question. Would Terminators have body heat that would show on Thermal imaging? It's odd that Sarah didn't use any Thermal gear in Alpine Fields to spot the Terminator in the woods.
It seems like infiltrator Terminators would have to maintain a 98.6 degree temperature. Otherwise, they'd be freezing cold to the touch.

Either way, Thermal Imaging could help identify Terminators. Six people are walking down a road. Five have a normal Thermal pattern and one doesn't. Guess which one is the Terminator. ;D

[Derek Reese]

Dec 9, 2008 1:15:48 GMT -5 aceplace57 said:

Alpine Fields mentioned that Future Terminators/Harvesters etc. used Thermal imaging to hunt humans at night.

That brings up an interesting question. Would Terminators have body heat that would show on Thermal imaging? It's odd that Sarah didn't use any Thermal gear in Alpine Fields to spot the Terminator in the woods.
It seems like infiltrator Terminators would have to maintain a 98.6 degree temperature. Otherwise, they'd be freezing cold to the touch.

Either way, Thermal Imaging could help identify Terminators. Six people are walking down a road. Five have a normal Thermal pattern and one doesn't. Guess which one is the Terminator. ;D

Yeah, honestly, I've always wondered the same in regards to matters. I mean that would at least give them some field advantage against the threats at hand.