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Post by littleb on Jun 21, 2009 3:41:13 GMT -5
I go back and forth on whether Sarah's going to totally lose her shit over John's departure or become so fiercely determined that she could take on a T4 harvester robot single-handed. <LOL> Now that I would pay good money to see. Sarah needs momentum and a mission. She's given herself the mission "I'll stop it." She has leads in Danny Dyson and Kaliba and she possibly has a new person to protect in Savannah. Course she's on her own... because I don't even want to think about her working side by side with Ellison. I just want to see her smacking him one and leaving him in the rubble! Not sure where the show was heading with Savannah really. If Weaver was the main target then they could just have back-grounded Savannah and then forgotten all about her. Weaver didn't seem to think her very important in terms of the future (her emphasis was always on John Henry) so I guess in her particular future, Savannah isn't vital (?) What's gonna make our girl crazy is when she realizes she's sent him in a war zone.... She didn't send him per se. He just kinda went and she didn't stop him. Course, that wouldn't stop her from blaming herself... which would also lead to more angsty fun. Yeah. That'll certainly do it. If anyone shows up from the future, that realization that future war is on and John's in it is going to destroy her. Yup. If K8ie's theory that Sarah thinks she sent John to a safe future plays out then anyone heading back is going to screw that one over in a heartbeat. (She types with a big grin on her face. Oh the angst!) Personally, John can stay in the future chasing down Cameron for me, send the Reese boys back to play with Sarah and save the world. I'd be in show heaven More likely scenario would have been a few future episodes split with present mission for Sarah, then a send-back and reset. Although a reset with what cast would be the question...
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Post by allergygal on Jun 21, 2009 17:18:56 GMT -5
I go back and forth on whether Sarah's going to totally lose her shit over John's departure or become so fiercely determined that she could take on a T4 harvester robot single-handed. <LOL> Now that I would pay good money to see. Seriously. I replied to this in the Born to Run threadSpeaking of paying good money to see things... I really really really want to see the look on Sarah's face when someone shows up from a post-apocalyptic future. I'd say there's a 51% her head won't explode.
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k8ie
Corporal
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Post by k8ie on Jun 22, 2009 0:49:47 GMT -5
Speaking of paying good money to see things... I really really really want to see the look on Sarah's face when someone shows up from a post-apocalyptic future. I'd say there's a 51% her head won't explode. LOL Seriously. I think we're talking a full-Ripley here.
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Post by littleb on Jun 22, 2009 3:09:26 GMT -5
Speaking of paying good money to see things... I really really really want to see the look on Sarah's face when someone shows up from a post-apocalyptic future. I'd say there's a 51% her head won't explode. <vbg> I think you're being too kind with those odds... LOL Seriously. I think we're talking a full-Ripley here. I kinda hope Ellison is around when she finds out, cos she's gonna need to take it out on someone and I've tried but I just can't think of a more winsome candidate...
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Post by allergygal on Dec 1, 2009 17:49:48 GMT -5
Do you think Sarah could want a normal life for John badly enough that she'd intentionally take his place? This plays into my in-progress crack!theory that Sarah sent Cameron back and orchestrated everything so John would end up free — in a future where he doesn't have to lead humanity in a fight against the machines. Is this too crazy to consider, even for fun?
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Post by gothamite66 on Dec 1, 2009 22:14:35 GMT -5
Well, I don't think it's too crazy of a crack!theory to consider because I've felt that way for some time now. Sarah was the one who sent Cameron back. Check back a few months HERE I think ya'll kinda thought I was a little crazy at the time too. But I still believe that Sarah sent Cameron. So, yes, I believe that Sarah is the one who originally sent back Cameron to lure John into the future. I also think that Future!Sarah was hoping with John safely tuck into the future, Present!Sarah would have a better chance of stopping Skynet now that she wasn't also having to protect John. Once she stopped Skynet in the present, she knew John could live a normal life in new!future. Obviously, things didn't turn out the way she had planned.
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terrasj
Sergeant
Rossbond Connor Crew
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Post by terrasj on Dec 1, 2009 23:53:16 GMT -5
Interesting theory considering Sarah probably knew her younger self would seriously grate against Cameron at times, given what a hot teenage female appearing Cameron represented to a teenage John from a mother's point of view...
We all know Sarah naturally had less acceptance and tolerance of Cameron the whole time than she did of UncleBob, despite UncleBob's appearance being identical in appearance to the former unit that once tried to kill her.
Though on the otherhand, who knows what circumstances Sarah at the time had been through, to actually have a change of mind / view to consider that even a risk of John becoming affectionate (or more, pending on which specific timeline and turn of events occurred in Sarah's past) to think and consider it a perfectly acceptable risk to send Cameron back as John's protector.
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Post by littleb on Dec 2, 2009 9:49:07 GMT -5
I can kinda see the logic but then, can't really find the logic believable... Given our Sarah's reaction to Cameron (pretty much summed up by the line "I don't like the way he responds to you") I can't see a future!Sarah being okay with the concept of sending a temptress!Cam over to entice her son into the future. And the temptation thing is the only obvious hook Cameron has that would set her apart from a Terminator such as Uncle Bob. Physically, she's not up to scratch (she's not built to fight other machines), in terms of her programming, she's wilful, deceitful and duplicitous. But she does look kinda pretty... I absolutely believe that Sarah wants that normal life for John so badly she would take his place. I think she'd do that in a heartbeat. I'm just not sure her attempts to achieve that would lead her to using Cameron. Besides, to confuse the issue (and you know how much I love the time travel tangle!) if Future!Sarah was our Sarah, that'd add another definite NO into the plausibility of the theory. But then I just confused myself with that and now my head hurts
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Post by allergygal on Dec 2, 2009 17:29:52 GMT -5
Well, I don't think it's too crazy of a crack!theory to consider because I've felt that way for some time now. Sarah was the one who sent Cameron back. Check back a few months HERE I think ya'll kinda thought I was a little crazy at the time too. But I still believe that Sarah sent Cameron. Oh goodie. I'd forgotten about that. And clearly I don't think you're crazy. Now we just have to make this work so everyone else won't think we're crazy! Though it may be too late for that Interesting theory considering Sarah probably knew her younger self would seriously grate against Cameron at times, given what a hot teenage female appearing Cameron represented to a teenage John from a mother's point of view... Yeah, trying to reconcile all that is why it's still a crack!theory. But I really like the idea because it puts a very unexpected twist on the whole story. And I'm hoping to work my way through it piece by piece. For the theory to even get off the ground, two things have to be presumed: 1. Sarah's death in 2005 was a lie. She didn't die of cancer or anything else. 2. Sarah survived j-day and was still alive (in 2027?) when Cameron jumped to 1999. Accepting those things is the easy part since we have no evidence to the contrary of either anyway. Just because we never saw or heard of Sarah in any flashbacks to the future doesn't mean she wasn't there. And Cameron saying she died doesn't carry any weight since we know she lies for the mission, even about important stuff. The harder issues are the timeline and the motivation for sending Cameron. I think future!John is dead at the point in time from which Cameron jumps and that he was living a rather miserable, shut-in life before that ( "What kind of life is that?"). If all Sarah wanted to do was save his life, she could've just sent Cameron back to before his death to prevent it. But I think future!Sarah wanted to go back and change John's fate and give him a normal life. But why use metal? And more importantly, why Cameron? My working theory on that is that Sarah would have needed someone that could protect John and be someone John could fall for. Sarah wanting John to fall for metal?! Heh... crack!theory ;D I'm working on it. I'm working on it. I can kinda see the logic but then, can't really find the logic believable... Given our Sarah's reaction to Cameron (pretty much summed up by the line "I don't like the way he responds to you") I can't see a future!Sarah being okay with the concept of sending a temptress!Cam over to entice her son into the future. And the temptation thing is the only obvious hook Cameron has that would set her apart from a Terminator such as Uncle Bob. Physically, she's not up to scratch (she's not built to fight other machines), in terms of her programming, she's wilful, deceitful and duplicitous. But she does look kinda pretty... I absolutely believe that Sarah wants that normal life for John so badly she would take his place. I think she'd do that in a heartbeat. I'm just not sure her attempts to achieve that would lead her to using Cameron. Besides, to confuse the issue (and you know how much I love the time travel tangle!) if Future!Sarah was our Sarah, that'd add another definite NO into the plausibility of the theory. But then I just confused myself with that and now my head hurts No, it wouldn't be our Sarah, it would be Sarah from the previous timeline — the timeline before Cameron and Cromartie showed up. One of the biggest hurdles of Sarah being behind it all is that John's attachment to Cameron would have to have been to be part of the plan. She's the reason he's willing to jump ahead without Sarah. And Sarah believing she's got cancer at that moment no doubt weakens her fight against the idea. I have much to think about to make this work (if it even can), but in answer to "I don't like the way he responds to you", I'll give you: "You got what you wanted."
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Post by gothamite66 on Dec 2, 2009 22:06:05 GMT -5
I think future!John is dead at the point in time from which Cameron jumps and that he was living a rather miserable, shut-in life before that ("What kind of life is that?"). Why do you think that John is dead? What episode or event lead you to this conclusion? My inclination to this point is that in John is still alive in the various timelines until he makes the jump to 202_. ( A re-watch is of course in order to see if I can see what you see. ) Why not use metal? You program the metal to perform a mission and you know they will complete the mission without betrayal. People lie. People lie all the time for the silliest reasons. People are un-trustworthy. Sarah is smart. What better way to get a nerdy misfit teenager to act silly and stupid and do dumb things than to dangle a pretty girl in front of him. Send pretty metal to both protect and lure John.
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figaruna
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Post by figaruna on Dec 2, 2009 23:00:40 GMT -5
I kinda see where you're coming from, gothamite and AG, but there are just so many variables that Sarah and other future!folks would've known to be uncontrollable... Sending any terminator (and a secret agenda-having, sometimes noncompliant one no less!) to carry out such a complicated mission would seem like a pretty crazy bet. Also, Sarah and John's "I'll always find you - and I'll always find you" convo from S1 makes me really skeptical about the whole thing... As much as Sarah loves John and wants him to be able to have a normal life, I don't really see her coming up with any kind of plan that would separate the two of them so definitively. He's her baby. Her one and only.
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Post by allergygal on Dec 3, 2009 1:36:19 GMT -5
Why do you think that John is dead? What episode or event lead you to this conclusion? My inclination to this point is that in John is still alive in the various timelines until he makes the jump to 202_. ( A re-watch is of course in order to see if I can see what you see. ) I'm sure he's alive when Derek gets sent back, but by the time we get to Jesse's timeline, I think he's dead. That scene between Jesse and Cameron in TITD2 just gave me the sense that John was dead and Cameron was trying to run things herself, pretending that she was acting on John's orders. And I think Cameron makes her jump to 1999 sometime after Derek but before Jesse. Why not use metal? You program the metal to perform a mission and you know they will complete the mission without betrayal. People lie. People lie all the time for the silliest reasons. People are un-trustworthy. Sarah is smart. What better way to get a nerdy misfit teenager to act silly and stupid and do dumb things than to dangle a pretty girl in front of him. Send pretty metal to both protect and lure John. You're right. Metal makes sense. Just like John said about his future self having sent a machine back to protect him, "I used to wonder why I did that. I don't wonder anymore. Human beings can't be replaced." Having witnessed Kyle's death, that's certainly a thought Sarah would have when choosing who to send back. Also, we know Sarah will tolerate a machine when it's useful. As much as she hated Cameron, she found her useful as weapon. Using a pretty girl makes sense for the purposes of manipulating John, but it feels weird to think of Sarah coming up with that idea. I have a hard time imagining her plotting to send back a cyborg that she knows her son will respond to. Oh wait... "Meet any pretty girls?"Once I got into this idea, I started finding quotes from episodes that really seem to be hinting to us that Sarah is behind the whole thing. And now I'll add that one to my growing list! If we're right on this, then they've been seeding it into the story since the beginning.
I kinda see where you're coming from, gothamite and AG, but there are just so many variables that Sarah and other future!folks would've known to be uncontrollable... Sending any terminator (and a secret agenda-having, sometimes noncompliant one no less!) to carry out such a complicated mission would seem like a pretty crazy bet. In this theory, Cameron's secret agenda would be what future!Sarah told her to do. I don't mean every action and every detail, but the general mission parameters: This is what your goals are and this is what you may and may not do - that type of thing. There would always be variables, of course, whether you sent a human or a robot back. No matter what kind of mission you plan, you simply can't know how it'll all play out when they get there. Also, Sarah and John's "I'll always find you - and I'll always find you" convo from S1 makes me really skeptical about the whole thing... As much as Sarah loves John and wants him to be able to have a normal life, I don't really see her coming up with any kind of plan that would separate the two of them so definitively. He's her baby. Her one and only. Sarah signed away her parental rights while she was in Pescadero so Todd & Janelle could adopt him. The show didn't really delve into why she made that decision, but I assume she'd hit a point where she thought she might not ever get out. So she was letting go for John's sake. Of course, she regretted it a minute later and ended up busting out instead, but the point is, she made the choice to cut herself off from him in a moment of hopelessness so he could have a better life. "I'll always find you" tells me (from a story standpoint) that no matter what happens, they'll reunite, though
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terrasj
Sergeant
Rossbond Connor Crew
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Post by terrasj on Dec 3, 2009 2:53:49 GMT -5
Yeah, trying to reconcile all that is why it's still a crack!theory. But I really like the idea because it puts a very unexpected twist on the whole story. And I'm hoping to work my way through it piece by piece. For the theory to even get off the ground, two things have to be presumed: 1. Sarah's death in 2005 was a lie. She didn't die of cancer or anything else. 2. Sarah survived j-day and was still alive (in 2027?) when Cameron jumped to 1999. Accepting those things is the easy part since we have no evidence to the contrary of either anyway. Just because we never saw or heard of Sarah in any flashbacks to the future doesn't mean she wasn't there. And Cameron saying she died doesn't carry any weight since we know she lies for the mission, even about important stuff. The harder issues are the timeline and the motivation for sending Cameron. I think future!John is dead at the point in time from which Cameron jumps and that he was living a rather miserable, shut-in life before that ( "What kind of life is that?"). If all Sarah wanted to do was save his life, she could've just sent Cameron back to before his death to prevent it. But I think future!Sarah wanted to go back and change John's fate and give him a normal life. But why use metal? And more importantly, why Cameron? My working theory on that is that Sarah would have needed someone that could protect John and be someone John could fall for. Sarah wanting John to fall for metal?! Heh... crack!theory ;D I'm working on it. I'm working on it. I accept your crack!theory and raise you with 'crack!theory possibilities' ;D For those who are concerned about retaining their sanity, I suggest you stop reading NOW. Else I hope you have something much stronger than Midol for the migraine ;D Well, here's another angle to work with (just to help make things get even crazier)... From which "parallel alternate timeline" is Sarah are we talking about? What we do know: - We've got the whole Jesse/Derek mis-match of same situation different circumstantial details with the Mad / Grey Doctor giving the T888's a medical lecture about human psychology... - End of Season 2, once John jumps into the future that removes his fame and aspect of a Future!John Connor leading the Resistance. So who is leading the Resistance? SO... In one possible timeline, Sarah survives to the future... Somehow Sarah arrives at the conclusion she'll send back Cameron to protect her son John... "Why" would Sarah do that is a darned good question... Now for the fun part... lots of ideas here: A.) Perhaps John had been killed sometime before or after Judgement Day, and Sarah had to keep on living for the sole reason that at some point SkyNet will develop time travel technology that Sarah would be able to hijack and send someone back. Since her past does not include a Cameron, Sarah doesn't think it through thoroughly enough to realize her younger self will have issues of a teenage Cameron counterpart & companion protector to John. B.)Why does Sarah send back Cameron when she could simply send herself back? Would it freak her younger self out too much as a older hardened lady with grey hair? C.) What if Sarah can't because her presence is too important and needed in the future.... Oh say... like maybe Sarah IS the leader of the Resistance in John place? D.) A variant on A.) - John steps into the time travel machine with Catherine Weaver T1001 so it removes him from leading the Resistance. Sarah survives J-Day, and fills her would-be-son's shoes as leader of the Resistance knowing some day she'll meet with him, and John being not a minute older than when she last saw him. Knowingly as much as having received Cameron's presence in the past had grated her to no end, Future!Sarah finds and sends back Cameron: - D1.) Present!John is infatuated on finding Cameron's chip to restore here. Sarah doesn't want to risk the same'ol son falling for Cameron in the future now. Besides, theres a teenage Alison human in Cameron's likeness that'll undoubtedly get John's attention - D2.) Future!Sarah being well versed with the whole time travel implications and theories of altering the past. She in a desperate move sends back Cameron soon as Cam shows up, just to preserve the past timeline as it now stands. Even though and despite how much her younger self barely tolerated Cameron. E.) (getting on the funky side here) Present!John arrives into the future with Weaver T1001 (who disappears out of site but dedicates herself to watchover John). Future!Sarah is of course older and grey haired, battlehardened tough as nails, however makes sure John doesn't see her (But she's still able to check on him, and chooses to keep herself distant nomatter how much her maternal instincts are killing her to go up to him and hold him). For a little while, John's knocked off his heels by a living breathing Alison (Cam's original template). However Alison gets captured, and Cameron shows up. John's both torn & shocked over Alison's death but his hormones does a 180 spin and falls for Cameron, having found her at last. - E1.) Cameron is in her stealth infiltrator mode and gets captured by a once again insanely protective/Jealous Sarah. Sarah reprograms Cameron and opts to send her back, knowing she'd prefer Cameron's presence would be minimal in the past as John would be fated to lose her all over again in Weaver's basement. - E2.) Cameron is in her stealth infiltrator mode when she enters the Resistance camp undetected as Alison, perhaps she was missing for a length of time. A love-sick distraught John hooks up with Alison that night to spend the night with, grateful she returned alive. Though John somehow realizes this isn't Alison, but Cameron (Yeah, Alison got captured and is dead - Alison from Palmdale episode). John becomes suddenly estranged in their quarters from the paradox posed by the situation, and pulls back away from her to sit across the room. Alison died, his Cameron's chip went missing, but this is the original Cameron. John remembers his original love for Cameron, her desperate "I love you John" , as well as their intimate hotel room moments. Cameron tries to warm up to John, begins experiencing some glitches of her own - an internal identity crises brought on by programing to Kill any living person with the Connor name, and Alison's memories that are heavily impressioned on by John's time spent with her: - E2a.) Cam approaches John to appeal to him, but tries to attack John but stops herself, thanks to the internal conflict within brought on by the Alison persona. John having been through this once before tries to help Cameron through it, as he had saved her life once before placing his utmost trust in her. Through John's unrelenting support and Alison's memories, Cameron manages to overwrite her SkyNet programming to kill Connor. Being given this second chance, she keeps up the Alison appearance while John's feelings for Cam inevitably return and for all appearances sake it looks like a normal John and Alison relationship. An unlucky turn of events happen as Cameron's masquerade is found out, Future!Sarah is furious as her old maternal jealousy comes out of retirement (the whole John and Cameron 'going at it' fear). Future!Sarah has Cameron confined and probed, and decides to deactivate & dispose of her once and for all. John intervenes with fury to save Cam's life again, he will not lose her yet a third time. Has a shell-shock moment his mother is there, alive in the future just X years older. Unfortunately John has no leverage this time and Future!Sara sends Cameron back to the past. Future!Sarah prefers to have robbed John of Cam's romantic involvement and suffer it out than to let John be happy. The small consolation prize being Cameron sent to the past so Cameron remains part of his previous memories albeit nothing sexual ever happened. Even if it means while in the future - John's radically estranged from his mother now from the whole incident. - E2b.) Cam approaches John to appeal to him, but tries to attack John but stops herself... Though John is royally freaked out at this point, too much at one time - loss of Alison, appearance of Cam's approach , and for the second time ever her trying to kill him. John leaves, reports Cam to command, Future!Sarah is notified immediately (and likely suddenly disgusted from realizing her oldest worst fears harbored once long ago of John getting involved with Cameron in a more than platonic way). Future!Sarah is hellbent on having Cameron dismantled, while Cameron has her own struggle, comes to Alison's senses, overwrites her programing, pleads her love and state of fixed to John. John's racked with emotional turmoil while Future!Sarah's going ballistic from having the whole "I Love You John" re-lived this very moment. Future!Sarah has Cam's chip re-programed anyways and decides to send her back to the past then has the techs disable the machine so John can't once again go chasing after her. - F.) Oh, by the way, did I mention Weaver was Future!Sarah's ulterior backup plan? Thw whole time John's in the future, Weaver's silently keeping watch over him while out of sight, and reports back to Future!Sarah. Weaver detects Cameron early enough but watches with interest how John handles finding out Alison's dead and replaced by the original Cameron. As much as Weaver's been ordered by Future!Sarah to watch over John, Weaver has her own interests and agenda... Feel free to use modify, pick apart or whatever. Just don't flog, tar, and feather me if you did get a migraine from reading it through (or for bringing up some Jameron shipping wishes)...
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Post by gothamite66 on Dec 3, 2009 8:22:11 GMT -5
For those who are concerned about retaining their sanity, I suggest you stop reading NOW. Else I hope you have something much stronger than Midol for the migraine ;D Dude... when did we assume any of us are sane? We're debating the motivations of killer robots from the future. I like your raised crack!theory. I'll be offering up more later but first I must think and maybe watch some episodes. I need to refresh my mind of those little moments that hint at Sarah. But first this little bit: The Sarah we're or at least I'm talking about is from a parallel future we haven't seen yet. I've always held that Sarah survives J-D and I think that both T1 and T2 also have her surviving. I remember some reference somewhere in the Terminator mythos that Sarah was working with the resistance in South America post Judgement Day. (sorry I can't remember where I got that but I read it somewhere) Who is leading the resistance? I'm not sure, perhaps Sarah because she was able to get Cameron re-programed for her needs but I haven't seen any evidence of that. At the end of B2R, we are kinda lead to believe that Kyle is in charge to an certain extent but I don't see him running the whole operation. More thinking needed on that. Anywho... more later when I have more time.
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figaruna
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Post by figaruna on Dec 3, 2009 14:34:39 GMT -5
Oh wait... "Meet any pretty girls?"Once I got into this idea, I started finding quotes from episodes that really seem to be hinting to us that Sarah is behind the whole thing. And now I'll add that one to my growing list! If we're right on this, then they've been seeding it into the story since the beginning. Hmm. It's been a little while since my S1 rewatch, and I'm waiting til I can get to my 'rents this X-mas to marathon the whole shebang on Blu-Ray, but I'll be really interested to see what hints you and gothamite will be able to bring up... I'm still trying to warm up to the idea, so I'll be mostly following up here in the meantime. Sarah signed away her parental rights while she was in Pescadero so Todd & Janelle could adopt him. The show didn't really delve into why she made that decision, but I assume she'd hit a point where she thought she might not ever get out. So she was letting go for John's sake. Of course, she regretted it a minute later and ended up busting out instead, but the point is, she made the choice to cut herself off from him in a moment of hopelessness so he could have a better life. True, but, see, I can't help but hyperly focus on Sarah's insta-regret from back then. In that conversation with John, Sarah says: So while I still sorta see the possibility of a Future!Sarah orchestrating a separation between herself and her son for "his own good," that particular piece of dialogue will always nag at me... ...Though she did allow him to leave in the S2 finale, so hrm. (I really, REALLY didn't like that part. ) @ terrasj: Daaaaang I'm gonna have to digest on that a bit before I can respond! LOL
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