k8ie
Corporal
Posts: 1,482
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Post by k8ie on Mar 3, 2009 1:24:12 GMT -5
Ruthless men like Winston would be front line fighters in a war against skynet. Or not. People who sell other people's lives for a buck aren't going to last too long against Skynet.
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schmacky
Major
"Make yourself useful."
Posts: 522
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Post by schmacky on Mar 3, 2009 2:10:05 GMT -5
Ruthless men like Winston would be front line fighters in a war against skynet. Or not. People who sell other people's lives for a buck aren't going to last too long against Skynet. I agree, men like Winston are more likely to be Greys. Resistance fighters don't have a need to be ruthless. They're fighting machines, not other people. Men like Kyle and Derek are front line fighters in a war against Skynet. As hard as they are, they care about people and that's what's important when the entire human race bands together for the common goal of their survival.
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Post by allergygal on Mar 3, 2009 15:37:03 GMT -5
Adding to the Sarah worries in the dream that Cameron is taking her place, I just noticed that Cameron is actually wearing Sarah's clothes! She's got on her black cargo plants, that green army-ish belt, and her brown leather jacket from Queen's Gambit.
L O L
How did I miss that before?
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Post by littleb on Mar 3, 2009 15:43:13 GMT -5
Adding to the Sarah worries in the dream that Cameron is taking her place, I just noticed that Cameron is actually wearing Sarah's clothes! She's got on her black cargo plants, that green army-ish belt, and her brown leather jacket from Queen's Gambit. L O L How did I miss that before? Possibly more to the point - how did you catch that at all?! That was the most nasty-assed jacket Sarah's ever worn, she probably just foisted it on Cam once she'd washed Derek's blood off it. Or wished she had... or hallucinated that she did... it's very confusing.
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Post by allergygal on Mar 3, 2009 15:45:42 GMT -5
When she's walking away from the breakfast line, I happened to notice the belt and I was like wait a minute! So I checked out the rest of the outfit and sure enough... Sarah's clothes. That's just too cool.
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Post by littleb on Mar 3, 2009 15:47:22 GMT -5
When she's walking away from the breakfast line, I happened to notice the belt and I was like wait a minute! So I checked out the rest of the outfit and sure enough... Sarah's clothes. That's just too cool. Makes me way happy that the writers are paying that much attention to detail. I've said it elsewhere, I'd love a DVD commentary on this one.
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t101
Major
Posts: 716
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Post by t101 on Mar 3, 2009 15:52:46 GMT -5
That's way cool! Never noticed.
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k8ie
Corporal
Posts: 1,482
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Post by k8ie on Mar 3, 2009 16:11:19 GMT -5
There's a line in Thelma and Louise, as they roll over into the third act. Thelma, I think, says that something's crossed over inside her. She can't go back.
This episode makes me feel the same way about Sarah. She goes into the desert seeking illumination and is transformed by the experience. But rather than enlightened, Sarah is grounded by her experience. Winston literally puts steel into her. Sarah herself breaks her bones to make herself into a better fighter, the best fighter.
(As an aside, breaking her thumb to escape the cuffs is something that persumably a terminator cannot do and that Derek did not do when he was chained in Dungeons and Dragons - Sarah is both wilder and more determined than her allies. Like the coyote, she'll gnaw through her own flesh to escape, to return to her cub. Possessed of human frailty but more resourceful.)
The Caesarian scar is the physical proof of the blood tie between Sarah and John.
Winston seeks to use that against her but it's a double-edged weapon that Sarah has drawn on to survive all John's life, since before he was born. She uses it better than anyone can use it against her. Because she can endure anything for her son.
Cameron in Sarah's clothes, making pancakes (making better pancakes), usurping Sarah's role in the house doesn't change the essence of Sarah's relationship John but gives lie to the expression. There's an essentialist vibe to TSCC - the life that John and Sarah lead burns away the ephemeral and leave only the permanent, unalterable, present: mother, son, future.*
*I think I just od'd on metaphor
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schmacky
Major
"Make yourself useful."
Posts: 522
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Post by schmacky on Mar 3, 2009 16:17:08 GMT -5
I noticed the jacket but didn't notice the rest of the clothes. Good job! It's funny, the whole dreaming of Cameron taking her place goes all the way back to season 1.. I remember Lena Headey talking about how Sarah feels like Cameron is the other woman that will take her son away. And now it's being visualized.. Sarah really does feel that way. (As an aside, breaking her thumb to escape the cuffs is something that persumably a terminator cannot do and that Derek did not do when he was chained in Dungeons and Dragons - Sarah is both wilder and more determined than her allies. Like the coyote, she'll gnaw through her own flesh to escape, to return to her cub. Possessed of human frailty but more resourceful.) That's a really good point! I've heard some folks complain that she did break her thumb to get out of the handcuffs because there are other ways to get free. But I don't recall people complaining that Derek never did that, ya know? With that thought, it adds much more to Sarah, her character, and her motivations.
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Post by aceplace57 on Mar 3, 2009 16:57:06 GMT -5
It's ironic that the battle against Skynet extends the time John and Sarah depend on each other. Normally children leave after high school and pursue independent lives. They come home for Thanksgiving and Christmas. Empty nest is tough, then add in menopause and it's extremely unfair. Sarah's reaction to Cameron is typical of most mothers. Serious girlfriends/wives are perceived as a threat. They make the final cut on the umbilical cord. Cameron's situation is even more complicated because she's from the enemy camp. Writers never stray far from the Capulet and Montague's. Although, I don't recall Lady Capulet trying to gnaw off her own thumb. Winston seemed comfortable using interrogation drugs. I'm pretty sure Winston had a military intelligence background. Probably an S2 (in the Army).
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Post by vicheron on Mar 3, 2009 19:18:56 GMT -5
Or not. People who sell other people's lives for a buck aren't going to last too long against Skynet. I agree, men like Winston are more likely to be Greys. Resistance fighters don't have a need to be ruthless. They're fighting machines, not other people. Men like Kyle and Derek are front line fighters in a war against Skynet. As hard as they are, they care about people and that's what's important when the entire human race bands together for the common goal of their survival. But war requires sacrifice. Feelings and emotions can get in the way of doing what is necessary. People like Winston aren't going to be on the frontlines but they will be the leaders of the Resistance. They have to know how to manipulate the emotions of their followers and rally them against the enemy but they must also know when it is necessary to sacrifice lives to achieve a greater victory. I suspect that future John is far more like Winston than Sarah.
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k8ie
Corporal
Posts: 1,482
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Post by k8ie on Mar 3, 2009 22:40:16 GMT -5
The best leaders, the ones people flock too aren't the ones who sacrifice their emotions, V.
Take a look at history - Churchill, Kennedy, Caesar, Augustus, Alexander, Thatcher, Henri Bourbon, Napoleon, Frederick the Great, Julius II, Patton, even Stalin and the dread AH - these weren't leaders who were cool and emotionless. These were passionate visionary people. Their skills as leaders were not rooted in their ability to be manipulative - although some of them were - or because they were incisive tactical thinkers - although some of them were - but because of their passion and vision. The strength of their belief, their certainty in the right of their actions is the divine spark that kindled the hearts of their followers.
The qualities that people attribute to John Connor in the future, the shibboleths of his leadership - that you trust him, that you follow him, that you would die for him - aren't things that he has in common with Winston. People respect John's ability to make a hard choice, but they don't love him for it. If they did, Jesse wouldn't be an issue.
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Post by vicheron on Mar 4, 2009 0:06:52 GMT -5
I never said that future John sacrificed emotions, I said that he wouldn't let feelings and emotions get in the way of doing what was necessary. If you look at history, you can see that letting emotions getting in the way led to the downfall of many leaders. Ambition was the death knell of many of the leaders you mentioned, Caesar, Alexander the Great, Napoleon, and Hitler.
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terrasj
Sergeant
Rossbond Connor Crew
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Post by terrasj on Mar 4, 2009 1:57:59 GMT -5
15 pages and next to nothing about the nurse??? I still can't get over that nurse from the sleep clinic... There was something off about her from the get go. Too controlled in her actions and responses. Her response to there being a lack of vital signs from Sarah's room - was the final clue - so Terminator in response like. At the time I still didn't know which was real - the sleep clinic or the prisoner in a van sequences. I kept on thinking - noway... she' can't be a Terminator... or is she? What is this going to spell for Sarah? Still, the brain scan room seemed a tad high-tech for a sleep clinic that would have rather desks of computer work stations, not a wall-screen with fancy technical graphics. That was probably the other tip but I was too engrossed with the 'this is a Skynet' controlled facility and Sarah's concerns for deleting all traces of her brainscan files. Then came in the nurse... John's shots dropped her stone cold for a moment there, then she got back up and shot John first then Sarah. It was great watching the entire episode. The way they had it put together, with Sarah's opening narrative while driving somewhere at night then ending the same way kinda reminded me of Pulp Fiction, how the start of the movie loops as the ending in that cyclic fashion. Funny thing is the whole time until the nurse shooting John and Sarah in the brainscan room, the way the episode was put together in sequences, I had actually thought the prisoner in the van was the dreams / nightmares Sarah was having while at the sleep clinic, not the other way around with Sarah in the van. I guess that makes the nurse as a Terminator of the week... But for once and refreshingly, being a female, yet not the easy pretzel Victoria was. This time the female Terminator had her glory. Even though it was a dream/nightmare, it was nice to see another female Terminator. Side note - I think there is a gender difference in Terminators rather than being a non-gender exoskeleton with a skin coating and pitch of voice for variance and denoting a gender facade. Or maybe its just me and wishful thinking Hopefully if theres a third season, there will be more equal variety. As for Cameron, her undies walk-by was good, but John's pause in mid sentence as she walked by was by far really made that scene a hoot. The vending machine scene was good - John plunks in a few coins, taps a few buttons, the vending machine getting stuck, Cam's offering to fix it and John's groaning - oh no don't!- and Cameron's perfect Thwack results in a dozen snacks falling down for John. That was great, because knowing Cameron's track record, it was an instant protest thinking Cameron would smash the machine but instead gave it that perfect hit. I was amused and had to appreciate that scene. Probably because I've personally been there before - at a hospital, waiting, only a few dollars on hand (a $5 bill) but with the machine not wanting to accept the paper bill and I having that same moment of frustration... And theres nothing worse when ya got only $5 on you and a craving for munchies in that situation. I personally would have loved having someone like Cameron fix the machine. John complimenting on Cameron's pancakes was nice and the little smile she gave him was pretty sweet, too bad that was also a dream. That reminded me alot of season 1 episode 1, where Cameron was more girl like than robot. I think that could've been a more normal John / Cam for season 2, picking up right where season 1 left off, and if Riley wasn't introduced for this season. At least I think thats quality of relationship that could've been between them (and if Cameron didn't have that accident & glitch)
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Post by allergygal on Mar 4, 2009 2:28:50 GMT -5
15 pages and next to nothing about the nurse??? I still can't get over that nurse from the sleep clinic... There was something off about her from the get go. Too controlled in her actions and responses. Her response to there being a lack of vital signs from Sarah's room - was the final clue - so Terminator in response like. At the time I still didn't know which was real - the sleep clinic or the prisoner in a van sequences. I kept on thinking - noway... she' can't be a Terminator... or is she? What is this going to spell for Sarah? I think the nurse in the dream represented Winston. - Winston was her captor. The nurse convinced Sarah to stay at the clinic. - Winston gave drugged her. The nurse had the syringe of conductive gel (and also later gave her an actual injection). - Winston was trying to get info from her. The nurse had compiled a profile. - Winston figured out about John. The nurse killed John. Also cool was that the opening VO had "The demons come after midnight in the first three hours of the new day when we are alone and vulnerable," and the whole kidnapping took place from midnight to 3am (John mentions it's almost midnight when she calls him at the beginning and the clock in the car shows just after 3am when she's on her way home).
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