cyadon
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Post by cyadon on Oct 31, 2008 10:34:10 GMT -5
There's been a lot of talk about the various levels of AI and emotions and what is felt or can be felt. I'd like to give a place for people to talk about it, and this thread is it. Please feel free to discuss those things here. You can use T:SCC as examples (though don't reference spoilers in this forum, please), and please try to keep the discussion reasonable and polite.
Thank you.
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Post by terminatornerd on Nov 2, 2008 13:51:09 GMT -5
Here is a direct quote from James Cameron HIMSELF on a discussion about machines and emotions after T2 came out in theaters:
"Essentially, you've got a character [Uncle Bob aka Arnold Schwarzenegger] associated with being the quintessential killing machine; that is his purpose in life. Devoid of any emotion, remorse, or any kind of human social code, he suddenly finds himself in the strangest dilemma of his career. He can't kill anybody, and he doesn't know why. He's got to figure it out. He's got to, because he's half human. And he figures it out at the end. The Tin Man gets his heart."
What more do you need?
The main creator of The Terminator series, its characters, and plot outline (Mr. King of the World himself), James Cameron, has told us that his Terminators are half human and can "humanize" themselves and understand the fundamental principals of "good" humanity; i.e. empathy and values.
They are getting it, why can't we as Sarah plainly spoke at the end of T2. Why can't the writers of TSCC, why not some of the fans? By their very statements, they don't seem to be getting the point. Josh has already done a 180 with Cameron by not wanting to "humanize" her. She's shown to be paroting, mimicing, copying, but not growing and evolving like we saw Arnold in T2.
By James Cameron's own words, that's not in keeping with the story. That's why I'm upset.
Arnie was a lowly T-800 series. He felt emotion, he learned values, he "got it." He got in touch with his inner "human," not his inner "cyborg."
This current Cameron, as described by Josh, is not in keeping with official canon. And we know what happened to T3 when it veered off course... panned and ridiculed.
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schmacky
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Post by schmacky on Nov 2, 2008 14:00:54 GMT -5
Here is a direct quote from James Cameron HIMSELF on a discussion about machines and emotions after T2 came out in theaters: "Essentially, you've got a character [Uncle Bob aka Arnold Schwarzenegger] associated with being the quintessential killing machine; that is his purpose in life. Devoid of any emotion, remorse, or any kind of human social code, he suddenly finds himself in the strangest dilemma of his career. He can't kill anybody, and he doesn't know why. He's got to figure it out. He's got to, because he's half human. And he figures it out at the end. The Tin Man gets his heart." What more do you need? The main creator of The Terminator series, its characters, and plot outline (Mr. King of the World himself), James Cameron, has told us that his Terminators are half human and can "humanize" themselves and understand the fundamental principals of "good" humanity; i.e. empathy and values. They are getting it, why can't we as Sarah plainly spoke at the end of T2. Why can't the writers of TSCC, why not some of the fans? By their very statements, they don't seem to be getting the point. Josh has already done a 180 with Cameron by not wanting to "humanize" her. She's shown to be paroting, mimicing, copying, but not growing and evolving like we saw Arnold in T2. And he was a lowly T-800 series. By James Cameron's own words, that's not in keeping with the story. That's why I'm upset. Are you the one that put this on the wiki too? I think everyone gets it. They're half human, yes, because they're cyborgs.. they're human on the outside. The Tin Man got his heart, he understands humans and values them.. that doesn't say anything about empathy and emotions. Maybe they do have emotions, maybe not. My bet is though that they don't feel like we do and they never will and I'm thinking Josh & co might explore that more so than exploring the cyborg feeling just as we do. |
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Post by terminatornerd on Nov 2, 2008 14:07:57 GMT -5
Are you the one that put this on the wiki too? I think everyone gets it. They're half human, yes, because they're cyborgs.. they're human on the outside. The Tin Man got his heart, he understands humans and values them.. that doesn't say anything about empathy and emotions. Maybe they do have emotions, maybe not. My bet is though that they don't feel like we do and they never will and I'm thinking Josh & co might explore that more so than exploring the cyborg feeling just as we do. I'm just going off what I read. James Cameron has stated they are partially human and if you read it carefully he says Arnold gets it BECAUSE of the fact he is half human. That does not mean since they have skin on the outside. It's their fundamental makeup... part human. "Because" is one of the key words here. Read it for yourself. I think you're starting to try and justify why Josh and Co. have gone off the reservation. |
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schmacky
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Post by schmacky on Nov 2, 2008 14:17:32 GMT -5
Are you the one that put this on the wiki too? I think everyone gets it. They're half human, yes, because they're cyborgs.. they're human on the outside. The Tin Man got his heart, he understands humans and values them.. that doesn't say anything about empathy and emotions. Maybe they do have emotions, maybe not. My bet is though that they don't feel like we do and they never will and I'm thinking Josh & co might explore that more so than exploring the cyborg feeling just as we do. I'm just going off what I read. James Cameron has stated they are partially human and if you read it carefully he says Arnold gets it BECAUSE of the fact he is half human. That does not mean since they have skin on the outside. It's their fundamental makeup... part human. "Because" is one of the key words here. Read it for yourself. I think you're starting to try and justify why Josh and Co. have gone off the reservation. No, I'm not trying to justify anything they do. That's just what I personally think and I hope they go the same way I'm thinking (doesn't everyone hope that?  ). Josh & co have already gone off the reservation on this franchise and that's okay because while they're honoring the franchise they're not sticking to every little detail and they've said so already. T2 was supposed to take place in 1994 in the movie, right? In the show it takes place in 1997. There are a lot of different things that they've changed and I think that's OK... especially OK considering this is a show about time travel and just because a Terminator is one way in one timeline doesn't mean it'll be the same in another timeline. |
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rossbondreturns
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Post by rossbondreturns on Nov 2, 2008 16:41:45 GMT -5
Just for your information in the opening quote Cameron isn't literally stating that Arnold is half human.
I should know I've talked to him about his Terminator universe on multiple occasions.
What he means is he identifies human understanding. And at the end of the movie he has enough understanding to relize what human emotions are and how...some of them work.
None of which really has much to do with AI...though I suppose it's a small part of it.
That is the key.
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Post by vicheron on Nov 2, 2008 17:49:35 GMT -5
Understanding something is not the same as experiencing it. That's true for perfectly normal humans who can feel emotions. Anthropologists study other cultures all the time and some times they go live with other cultures to try to understand them better. However, they do not personally experience every activity performed by the members of that culture. Anthropologists understand that some cultures gain profound experiences through trances, hallucinogens, and sometimes even self mutilation, but most anthropologists do not actually participate in those activities.
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Post by terminatornerd on Nov 2, 2008 23:32:39 GMT -5
Just for your information in the opening quote Cameron isn't literally stating that Arnold is half human. I should know I've talked to him about his Terminator universe on multiple occasions. What he means is he identifies human understanding. And at the end of the movie he has enough understanding to relize what human emotions are and how...some of them work. None of which really has much to do with AI...though I suppose it's a small part of it. That is the key. And that's a key element... if you take into consideration what Sarah stated at the end of T2 it seems to really mean that Arnie-bot is a reflection of... how to be a better human. James Cameron isn't saying, "embrace your inner cyborg, folks." He's saying embrace your humanity because... A KILLER TERMINATOR HAS!! The story has NOTHING to do with AI. That's not the point. The point is that killing is wrong, war is wrong, hate is wrong. Sarah starts to hate, she becomes like a machine and loses part of her sanity in the process. By the simple statements and viewpoints of a child both Sarah and the Terminator learn a valuble lesson. The action and stunts are only part of the story. It's the message that is at the heart of the two films. That's what makes them classics. That's why I was hoping for a much better level of communication between Cameron and John. I don't care about Riley. Plain old human relationships and development are boring and definitely have been done to death since that's all you see on TV and movies. However, a relationship based on mutual need to understand and learn from one another... machine and man... now that's a cool and interesting place to explore and it's a pity that T2 had only 2 1/2 hours to do so. And before you go off on BSG... no, they did not explore going from cold machine to a fully functioning, feeling human being. They completely skipped over that important part from the three seasons I've seen so far. As much as I like that show, they had the Cylons jump right into becoming scientifically advanced cloned humans without the benefit of being nurtured by love and being brainwashed to hate humans, so of course they could feel and act just like us! It was almost a cheat. The machines had to because they were copying their makers and needed to reproduce to survive. I think one of the problems I have with a spin off is that they can't have it both ways and make a successful new franchise. This is what happened to Superman Returns. It was supposed to be a direct sequel to Superman 2 as a loving tribute to Christopher Reeve and Richard Donnor's vision, and yet it wasn't and didn't have the same vibe, got some issues and characters wrong, and it bombed. Either continue on the path started by the original creators and follow their lead or do a complete reboot from the beginning like Christopher Nolan wisely did with the Batman series. By getting obvious time line issues wrong (years and dates and the ages of the characters, and when their birthdays are, etc.), by using time travel in a cheap way to further the plot, by having a bullet travel through the time displacement field and not disappear, etc. etc. they seem to be showing that they are not the Terminator die hards they purport to be. And that is a serious problem they need to address. We fans see it... so they should know not to make these glaring errors. |
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Post by vicheron on Nov 3, 2008 0:58:53 GMT -5
Just for your information in the opening quote Cameron isn't literally stating that Arnold is half human. I should know I've talked to him about his Terminator universe on multiple occasions. What he means is he identifies human understanding. And at the end of the movie he has enough understanding to relize what human emotions are and how...some of them work. None of which really has much to do with AI...though I suppose it's a small part of it. That is the key. And that's a key element... if you take into consideration what Sarah stated at the end of T2 it seems to really mean that Arnie-bot is a reflection of... how to be a better human. James Cameron isn't saying, "embrace your inner cyborg, folks." He's saying embrace your humanity because... A KILLER TERMINATOR HAS!! The story has NOTHING to do with AI. That's not the point. The point is that killing is wrong, war is wrong, hate is wrong. The Terminator series has many themes. You cannot simply ignore the fact that one of the underlying ideas behind Terminator is that technology is neutral and it all depends on how we use or abuse it. Machines do not hate. They feel nothing. The Terminators don't actually hate humans, they're just doing what they're programmed to do. What does this have to do with machines being able to feel emotions? You can't compare Cylons with Terminators because the Cylons are actually modeled after humans. They have DNA, they have neurotransmitters. The way they feel emotions is based on the same principles as humans. Terminators were never designed to feel emotions and even if they are they don't have the same faculties as humans so if they are able to feel emotions, it won't be the same as humans. Also, the bullet was inside the Resistance fighter when he time traveled. |
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Post by terminatornerd on Nov 3, 2008 2:14:50 GMT -5
"The Terminator series has many themes. You cannot simply ignore the fact that one of the underlying ideas behind Terminator is that technology is neutral and it all depends on how we use or abuse it."
"Machines do not hate. They feel nothing. The Terminators don't actually hate humans, they're just doing what they're programmed to do."
They do need to explore the fundamentals of nature vs. nurture. Skynet learned to hate and fear (yes, actual emotions), but that's all it learned. It was hooked up to the military industrial complex. That's all the input it got. If you see a threat... kill it. No pity, no dialog, no empathy, nothing... just destroy the target.
Cameron (like Arnie) has John and Sarah. They have love, they have passion, compassion, values and empathy to share with her. So, start sharing.
You bring in clinical AI matters to make your point, but again, I subscribe to the idea that's not the point James Cameron was making. Call it scientific fantasy being utilized to make his point, that by a type of magic (like The Wizard of Oz) the Tin People can find their buried hearts... their hidden humanity. Sci-fi with fantasy and a morality play mixed together.
If Cameron is just copying emotions then she hasn't gotten anything. She can't "get it" when Arnie in T2 clearly could. Arnie loved and cared for John and valued life. He was like John's perfect father-figure. Sarah said so herself.
"Also, the bullet was inside the Resistance fighter when he time traveled."
I have it DVR'd and went through the sequence frame by frame. The bullet is traveling outside his body while the soldier is transporting, and then it hits him in the chest. Watch it closely. Another error.
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Post by chrisimo on Nov 3, 2008 2:57:37 GMT -5
The Tin Man got his heart, he understands humans and values them.. that doesn't say anything about empathy and emotions. Maybe they do have emotions, maybe not. My bet is though that they don't feel like we do and they never will and I'm thinking Josh & co might explore that more so than exploring the cyborg feeling just as we do. The problem lies in defining how we feel. So if Cameron can feel a desire to live (which I think is true) or can even feel sad or curious, does it matter that it is different from what we humans feel? |
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schmacky
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Post by schmacky on Nov 3, 2008 3:15:53 GMT -5
The Tin Man got his heart, he understands humans and values them.. that doesn't say anything about empathy and emotions. Maybe they do have emotions, maybe not. My bet is though that they don't feel like we do and they never will and I'm thinking Josh & co might explore that more so than exploring the cyborg feeling just as we do. The problem lies in defining how we feel. So if Cameron can feel a desire to live (which I think is true) or can even feel sad or curious, does it matter that it is different from what we humans feel? Yes. |
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Post by chrisimo on Nov 3, 2008 3:16:37 GMT -5
The problem lies in defining how we feel. So if Cameron can feel a desire to live (which I think is true) or can even feel sad or curious, does it matter that it is different from what we humans feel? Yes. Why? |
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Post by vicheron on Nov 3, 2008 4:08:33 GMT -5
"The Terminator series has many themes. You cannot simply ignore the fact that one of the underlying ideas behind Terminator is that technology is neutral and it all depends on how we use or abuse it."
"Machines do not hate. They feel nothing. The Terminators don't actually hate humans, they're just doing what they're programmed to do."They do need to explore the fundamentals of nature vs. nurture. Skynet learned to hate and fear (yes, actual emotions), but that's all it learned. It was hooked up to the military industrial complex. That's all the input it got. If you see a threat... kill it. No pity, no dialog, no empathy, nothing... just destroy the target. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Skynet actually hates humans. There would be no reason for people to program Skynet with the ability to hate. It would actually be a detriment to its function since hatred would only serve to cloud judgment. But unlikely Uncle Bob, Cameron actually acts far more human. Uncle Bob was completely devoted to John even before he learned anything from him. He was programmed to protect John and he would do it regardless of whether or not he understand what it means to be human. Cameron on the other hand has other motives. Except that James Cameron never actually included anything supernatural into the Terminator franchise. Nothing in the movie is suggested to be a miracle or magical. Uncle Bob protected John with the single minded determination of a machine. The fact that he protected John has nothing to do with loving or caring for him. In fact if he was human then he would be less reliable because humans are flawed. Sarah talked about how Uncle Bob would never get drunk or hit John. She's talking about human qualities, human frailties. Uncle Bob would never succumb to them because he's not human. Except that you couldn't have seen the bullet entering the soldier since it came from behind him. The most reasonable explanation is that the bullet entered the Resistance soldier the moment he jumped forward in time, which allowed it to jump along with the Resistance soldier. Since momentum is preserved in the jump, the bullet was still moving and it came out as soon as the Resistance soldier arrived in the present. |
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Post by chrisimo on Nov 3, 2008 4:21:35 GMT -5
There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Skynet actually hates humans. There would be no reason for people to program Skynet with the ability to hate. It would actually be a detriment to its function since hatred would only serve to cloud judgment. There was no reason to program Skynet with a will of it's own, either. But it developed just that. So maybe it hates humans or is afraid of them, as well (just in it's own kind of way). Andy Goode said something like that (it became scared and I couldn't reassure it). |
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