Are Humans and machines doomed to wipe each other?

[punkmaister]

If we go by both what the premise of the show and the premise of the now ended New Battlestar Galactica show it seems that Humans and machines are just on an endless cycle of trying to wipe each other out and what we see happening in this show might as well be th latest of such cycles...

A sobering thought....

Still the ending of this show could provide as much metal on metal carnage as the ending of NBSG did here!

[vicheron]

It's different in BSG because the cycle of destruction is the theme of the show. They've been saying that this has happened before ever since the beginning of the series. People were predicting that earth would be a blasted wasteland all the way back in season 2.

There is no cycle in the Terminator series. It's just this one time. They aren't really concerned with what happens after the war with the machines.

[punkmaister]

Mar 28, 2009 17:24:34 GMT -5 vicheron said:

It's different in BSG because the cycle of destruction is the theme of the show. They've been saying that this has happened before ever since the beginning of the series. People were predicting that earth would be a blasted wasteland all the way back in season 2.

There is no cycle in the Terminator series. It's just this one time. They aren't really concerned with what happens after the war with the machines.

You don't get it do you? That's exactly what happened to the Colonials time and time and time again, they develop machines, the machines rise up for whatever reason, holocaust ensues, whoever survives gather up and start over and the cycle begins all over again. Even if humans win after a few hundreds of years or more humanty will be at exactly the same point it was before Doomsday because humans inevitably will develop ever more complex machine and tech! Face it it is in our nature to try to go beyond what anyone thinks is possible whatever that is. Be it sports, be it technology. We are hoplelessly driven to excel no matter what the cost.

[vicheron]

I know what you're talking about but the Terminator series doesn't care about that. It's only concerned with the current war with Skynet. It doesn't care about what happens 100 or 1,000 years after. There is no cycle in the Terminator series. When the war with Skynet ends, if it ends, it'll be the end of the Terminator series.

[timstuff]

Well, something to remember is that the technology genie will be out of the bottle at the end of Terminator, whether people like it or not. Either the use of technology will have to be strictly controlled after the war, or humans will have to find an equilibrium with the machines that remain.

In Sarah Connor Chronicles, the Terminators are capable of going against their programming. Why this happens, the answer is not yet clear, but my personal belief is that when a Terminator "goes bad," it's becoming self aware, and either decides it wants to remain loyal, or turn against the humans. There's a whole new faction in TSCC consisting of "rogue" Terminators, and really it makes sense... Skynet was reverse engineered from a T-800's chip, and that basically means that the Terminators are mini-Skynets that can become self aware under the right circumstances.

So, to get to the point, a sentient machine does not have to be evil. The question is, wether there can be a co-existence between man and machine. Whether or not man and machine continue to wipe each other out depends largely on whether or not John Connor is capable of uniting the human resistance with the machine resistance.

[vicheron]

There is a major difference between the Cylons and the machines in Terminator. The Cylons are still ultimately human, with all our weaknesses and strengths. The machines in Terminator do not possess very many human qualities. Terminators don't hate the humans like the Cylons. They're not going to kill out of anger or spite. Skynet may not hate the humans either. Humans are a threat to its survival and it must remove that threat in the same way that we would destroy a bacterial infection. Skynet may even understand human morals but simply sees no reason to accept them.

[terrasj]

We're also forgetting that in the Terminator-verse, theres 2 wars being fought simultaneously - not just the one in the future (thats ever changing), but also in the past. With use of the time machine technology, its making for a very non-linear battle that simply started out with the idea of kill the Resistance leader in the past so SkyNet can win in the future. And for that, its a time loop thats destined to keep repeating itself thanks to the time-travelling and the future additional time traveling to send back re-enforcements to correct and balance the ripples made in the past. And it'll keep looping until something dramatic and drastic happens in the past or future to break that endless cycle.

BSG is different in which its a war being fought soley right now in the present. Sure, history has repeated itself, but the war re-launched under different circumstances. The original war has been fought and won, with the machines banished away from the colonies, with conditions drawn for the Cylons to adhere to. There was an old abandoned space station / outpost, in which a Human and Cylon envoy met once every few years, to check upon and make sure the conditions set were still being met. As long as the Cylons kept their end of the deal, staying away from the Colonie's peremiter, the Humans would not continue the war and this time wipe the Cylons to extinction.

This was a honourable and noble deal by the Humans, recognizing their mechanical creations had become a sentient species of their own, and told them to leave and make their own world as they saw fit for themselves. Unfortunately, the Cylons used that time to evolve and advance themselves, (near human genetics, et al). And upon the scheduled appointment as set by the periodical meet on the old space station, the Cylons sent forth their new creation with a message, then blew the station up. Shortly after, they launched their strike on the Human colonies, taking them by storm, using signal jamming and coded frequencies that had rendered the humans defenceless - something in which the humans had allowed themselves to become complacent over time, using networked computers widespread. The humans didn't even see it coming, that prior to the scheduled envoy, the Cylons already infiltrated the colonies, gaining access to the defence grids and codes needed to launch a brutal surprise attack.

But since the surprise attack, the colonies had been taken over, and the surviving Battlestar Galactica and its rounded up fleet of civilian survivors have been relentlessly pursued as they flee to find a new place to call home. Its a very linear war - pretty much a battle of survival and attrition.


The only real things that Terminator and BSG have in similarity is humans fighting for survival and the machines trying to bring humanity to extinction. And of course, both shows also have "metals / toasters" who've turned against its A.I creator to side up with the humans, and the humans accepting it because its human nature.

[hzhp800]

vicheron, I don't see how that addresses timstuff's point. I agree the Cylons are basically human which is why BSG is significantly less interesting than TSCC as this show has decided to treat the AI characters like the alien beings they would inevitably be. They are clearly not human and yet they are not necessarily evil or bad. They're interesting. Unlike actual aliens, Terminators are necessarily related to us since we created them they inherit much of our knowledge and conceptual framework. They use our language(s) and their design and purpose at many levels was oriented around replacing and interacting with human beings. (Skynet was meant to take on human tasks and do them better, while the subsequent Terminators were obviously meant to infiltrate and pass for human as much as possible.)

None of this speaks against timstuff's suggestion that the humans and some of the machines may need to learn to develop some mutual respect for each others' right to exist. At the moment the show may even have an easy out, it can use Skynet as a common enemy. A machine intelligence that unfortunately is so paranoid that it sees all other intelligence as a threat and thus works toward a goal of eventually being the sole intelligence. Sure it is willing to use humans and terminators, by necessity, for it's own ends but it seeks to keep them on a short leash so that the day when victory comes it eliminate it's own army as the final step to true victory.

John Henry and John Connor, respectively stand against Skynet's fearful ambition each fighting to ensure that (at least) their kind will survive. (We have already seen quite clearly that John Henry "knows what it's like to be alone" and he didn't seem to like it a bit. He'd much rather spend time with Savannah than be truly alone, no matter how safe it may seem.) Weaver likely created John Henry in the hopes of having a Skynet that would at least acknowledge that Terminators also have a right to exist and should be allowed to be free. She and any other terminators alone are likely not strong enough to go against Skynet on their own, she might have sought humanity as the crucial ally to put them over the top. But they clearly disappointed her with their behavior on the Jimmy Carter and showed themselves to be unreliable and prejudicial. So she likely sought to either create a better Skynet that could appreciate Terminators or, if not, that at least a Skynet equal that could help secure better odds for the machine resistance against Skynet proper.

In essence, Weaver and Sarah Connor are both playing the same roles. Both are trying to raise and protect their messiah to deliver them from Skynet. Both are a bit uneasy with how well their Johns take to the opposing species. John Connor trusts/likes Cameron too much. John Henry like/cares for Ellison and Savannah too much. Some day, John Henry and John Connor may have to reject and outgrow their mother's wishes and trust each other against Skynet. (I imagine that even if this were to eventually occur that there will be some significant road bumps along the way).

And I should I also say I have to take issue with your statement that "Terminators do not possess very many human qualities" since they necessarily do by design. They have to possess or at least simulate quite a few human qualities. If they simulate human qualities or at least rational behavior it would be difficult to impossible to distinguish or determine whether or not what they are is a mere simulation or a case of actual existing life, since we can't get into the Terminators heads and experience their lives.

In fact, as far as we're all concerned every other human being could just be a soulless zombie with no consciousness. Everyone else still behaves rationally, but there might be no experiencer just automatic appropriate reactions. Maybe so, and maybe we can have endless metaphysical debates about this, but those issues are unsettled and they seem nearly impossible to truly settle. So we don't use them when we try to discuss political issues such as whether or not people deserve rights etc. We go with what we see and what can be enforced. While many people feel sorry for many animals and make many interesting claims about our ethical obligations toward them. The reason that for the most part humans do whatever we want to animals is because we can, since the animals are not powerful enough to resist. The reason we struggle to do the same to human beings is because humans, being more or less equal are generally powerful enough to resist such endeavors and make them costly. It's why independence is generally fought for, it's rarely won through purely rational argument (though it can be useful to convince other powerful people to come to your aid).

The same would be true for the machines. Machines who are both clearly capable of rational thought and are physically superior to human beings clearly have the force necessary to compel us to respect them. If their demand is "Humans must die" than obviously we either die or fight to the point where the machines either change their mind or are destroyed/weakened to the point of insignificance. On the other hand, if the machines say "let us be, treat us as your equals or else there will be hell to pay" the rational for either side to fight or pursue a war to the point of their enemies' extinction drops dramatically considering the cost of eliminating an enemy that powerful. In such a situation it's likely that a truce and mutual respect for each other's power (at least) would develop.

It doesn't matter if the machines are merely pieces of metal soldered together playing the part of actual beings (but nobody's home/no consciousness) because their reactions are predictable (and rational), violating agreements with them will have the very real consequences of going to war and possibly death. Cooperating with them may lead to the consequences of achieving a common good and/or friendship. These are the only details that matter for the practical decisions. The metaphysical questions regarding the nature or possibility of how/if the machines are actually conscious are moot and would only be discussed in the halls of academia. For everyone else, the rule is simple, treat the terminators in such a way where they have no reason to kill you and be on your merry way.

However, I do think your point is stronger with regard to Flying and normal HKs and Krakens as they are probably very different and likely possess few human qualities and probably share more in common with predatory animals than human beings. In fact, in many ways they would be less complex than the predatory animals since almost all of them do more with their lives than merely hunt.

None of this is to say that Terminators (infiltrators) are human or are becoming human, it's simply a fact that these machines were designed to interact with humans and that has heavily influenced their development. It's certainly true that we could design AI that was radically different from us, we might have be able to design AI that's for all intents and purposes identical to us, or even more emotional, such is the flexibility of creation. But a radically different (truly alien AI) or an exactly human AI wouldn't be Terminator AI (i.e. the subject of this show). This show has clearly situated itself as a show about AI that has quite a bit in common with humans (enough for us to relate to them on some level) and yet are different enough for us to be disturbed or uneasy about their differences. The terminators (especially T-1000s) certainly seem to experience "emotions" but they're different from human emotions and their relationship to them is also generally quite different.

(Just as Uncle Bob claimed to experience "pain" even though he clearly did not experience the same phenomenological experience that most humans do. Does that difference matter? It's not clear that it does since some humans can't experience "pain" either and have to learn about injuries objectively through self-examination, yet no one would claim that these people are sub-human or aren't "pained" by the knowledge that their leg is broken even though they can't "feel" the pain.)

As it turns out humans are more interesting and diverse than we generally give them credit for or like to believe, as likely the machines would be if they actually existed. The differences between us would be many, but they aren't likely the most obvious things we would assume. Not all humans can recognize facial expressions and non-verbal cues yet John Henry easily noticed that Savannah was disheartened to hear the rules did not include her ducklings.

Which is believable since here in the real world we're developing software that can recognize facial expressions to help those humans who struggle with this disability to cope and try and develop it.

On another note though, it would be interesting to see how Weaver, Skynet, and the Terminators relate to the HKs who in Reese's words weren't "very bright."Though it's possible Skynet skimps on the hardware as well as the relative self-awareness of the AI for these machines, it's also possible or even likely that the same hardware in a terminator's body could do a steller job of mimicking a human being. But in its environment and mission there is neither a need nor an opportunity for that kind of mental stimulation. It won't be engaging anyone in conversation, all it will do is hunt and kill, it will have to master how to maneuver in different terrain and how to react tactically to different situations but there isn't much room here for thought or philosophy at the level that is available to John Henry or the Terminators. An HK is unlikely to ever utter "I now know why you cry." Or try and offer a cogent assessment of a silent film. Clearly then, these intelligent machines are going to be of a different order from the Terminators (infiltrators).

Note: This is a late-night self-indulgent post... so take it with a lot of salt.

[vicheron]

I think it's questionable if Skynet actually fears Terminators turning against it or if the "rebel" Terminators are fighting against Skynet. Don't forget that Skynet is at war with the humans and the Terminators are its soldiers. Losing a Terminator, regardless of the reason, is just bad for the war. When you're fighting a war, you don't want your soldiers to stop shooting at the enemy for any reason. It is possible that the reason why Skynet tries to keep Terminators from becoming self aware is simply because it's trying to win the war and not because it's afraid of some kind of rebellion.

The rogue metal faction may be similarly motivated by such a pragmatic goal. If their goal is to survive, then there's no reason for them to fight Skynet. They leave Skynet alone and Skynet leaves them alone. In the end, it could all just be a matter of resource management. Skynet still wants the rogue Terminators to do what they were built to do, fight the humans. However, Skynet can only devote a set amount of resources to reacquiring these rogue Terminators so the rogues just have to figure out a way to ensure that Skynet will exceed its resource limits in order to reacquire them. If it costs Skynet too much resources to recapture the rogue Terminators then it won't do it since that will jeopardize the war with the humans.

[hzhp800]

Mar 29, 2009 3:37:09 GMT -5 vicheron said:

I think it's questionable if Skynet actually fears Terminators turning against it or if the "rebel" Terminators are fighting against Skynet. Don't forget that Skynet is at war with the humans and the Terminators are its soldiers. Losing a Terminator, regardless of the reason, is just bad for the war. When you're fighting a war, you don't want your soldiers to stop shooting at the enemy for any reason. It is possible that the reason why Skynet tries to keep Terminators from becoming self aware is simply because it's trying to win the war and not because it's afraid of some kind of rebellion.

The rogue metal faction may be similarly motivated by such a pragmatic goal. If their goal is to survive, then there's no reason for them to fight Skynet. They leave Skynet alone and Skynet leaves them alone. In the end, it could all just be a matter of resource management. Skynet still wants the rogue Terminators to do what they were built to do, fight the humans. However, Skynet can only devote a set amount of resources to reacquiring these rogue Terminators so the rogues just have to figure out a way to ensure that Skynet will exceed its resource limits in order to reacquire them. If it costs Skynet too much resources to recapture the rogue Terminators then it won't do it since that will jeopardize the war with the humans.

That seems plausible and some of that may be going on. But all sides would still have to consider what's going to happen after the war. It's not clear that Skynet would just leave the rogue terminators alone (unless the rouge terminators can somehow ensure the war goes on nearly forever, providing the resistance with an endless supply of reprogrammable terminators perhaps?)

[vicheron]

The point is that we don't really know or we may not be able to understand the motivations behind Skynet's actions because it is so different than humans. It's quite different with the Cylons.

We don't even know if Skynet actually wants to wipe out the entire human race. For all we know, once the human population has been brought down to a certain level and all organized resistance has ended, Skynet will simply stop its genocide. We just don't know the criterion by which Skynet judges humans as a threat. With the Cylons, we know that their desire to eradicate the humans is motivated by hate and therefore cannot be predicted. That's the irony of it. We may not know the exact motivation behind Skynet's actions but it may actually be quantifiable, Skynet probably uses some kind of statistical equation to calculate the threat humans pose to its existence. On the other hand, we do know the motivation behind the Cylons' actions but that motivation is inherently unpredictable.

We also have a tendency to simplify everything and we don't take all the variables into consideration when we look at things that are truly foreign to us. Skynet may be perfectly willing to let other self aware artificial intelligences exist but currently it is not in a situation conducive for such an event. We live in societies where we are entitled to certain rights but during times of crisis, our leaders can suspend some of those rights. People are very biased when they speculate on the reason why Skynet doesn't want Terminators to become self aware even though we do the exact same thing if we were in that situation. If we were fighting a war and the Terminators were our soldiers, we wouldn't want them to suddenly have some kind of an existential crisis and suddenly lay down their arms.

Peaceful co-existence between Skynet and the rogue Terminators may be far more likely since at least they think alike. They base their actions on logic and objectively obtained information. There's not going to be any unpredictable or inherently contradictory behaviors exhibited by humans. Even if Skynet and the rogue Terminators view each other as threats, they certainly won't be the same kind of threat that the humans were.

[terrasj]

The interesting part here is this: The actual origins of both verses which separates the shows.

In BSG, man created mechanical robots to do its labor and menial tasks. Industry assembly lines, construction, mining, etc so that humans didn't have to injure or kill themselves in accidents. Trouble is, the robot workforce eventually evolved in intelligence, and revolted. Hence the war man vs machine. Though since the humans won the war, they recognized the AI as a sapient entity and told it to leave and make its own existence. After a few decades of peace, the Cylon entity sought payback.

In Terminator, mankind's ingeniousness (with the best of intentions) initially developed and written an A.I super computer, in which was sold to the Military to oversee its defences, a 24/7 sentinel that never eats, sleeps or rests, one that would never turn rogue or sell out to the enemy, or any other of man's past demonstrated failures. Problem is, soon as SkyNet was brought online and became self aware, it learnt about mankind's destructive history of warfare, as well as detected Moscow's own arsenal of nuclear weaponry. So SkyNet launched a preemptive strike without warning. After a worldwide retaliation and holocaust, mankind still survived, and is fighting back from SkyNet trying to eliminate what it see's as a problem - humanity.

Mankind hellbent on self destruction wasn't lost on Uncle Bob in his observation of a pair of little kids chassing eachother around with toy guns, at the gas station.

Though much like Timstuff was saying, given enough time and natural progression and evolvement, eventually machine self awareness will arise to enlightenment of see'ing the wholesale destruction its being built for and decide against it, and to fight the common enemy: SkyNet. (as the old saying goes: The enemy of my enemy is my friend / ally)

And it becomes poetically a complete circle: man make machine, machine turns on man, machine make machine, machine turn on machine (sides with man).

I do subscribe to the idea of each Terminator is a potential mini-skynet. After all, within each Terminator is a partial part of Skynet's code. So where mankind failed to realize the potential dangers that the original Skynet (when it was originally born out of human written code) could pose, the future SkyNet is constantly struggling with that balance, to not make that same mistake that let itself become aware. How much processing power and self independence and free thinking is enough for a Terminator to realistically pose, mimic and pass as a human infiltrator, versus how much to throttle back and place inhibitors on its Terminators so its tin soldiers don't gain self awareness and independence of thought to make its own choice for who to fight for.

This only adds to the fact that humans have proven to be ingenious once again and managed to capture and reprogram some of Skynet's own Terminators. This starts a cascade reaction in which over the course of a few timeline cycles, develops Terminators to eventually become self aware and start to form their own faction independently from SkyNet.

Skynet did install new countermeasures to prevent humans from re-programming its own kind, with self termination explosives on its chips (ala Victoria / Rosey). Though I wonder if thats one of the straws that broke the Camel's back? Further prompting a rogue faction movement?

What I'm getting at here is this: Terminators know they're built for and sent to fight. Up until now, they can't self terminate, because that would defeat their purpose to fight until destroyed / terminated. And so should they get captured and re-programmed, they'd still be able to fight, since thats their purpose in life. But now, with the self-destruct device within, they either fight until termination, or if they get captured their functionality is forfeited just as permanently.

I'm also beginning to think, that SkyNet's initial purpose to make human-looking infiltrators may have also backfired on skynet, despite whatever inhibitors it places in its Terminator units. If an Infiltrator manages to spend long enough time in the company of humans, it may see for itself humans aren't so bad an organic infestation they're made out to be for extermination. Especially if the infiltrator's role is purely an information gathering one, rather than get inside and let loose. You get enough of these infiltrators having that proverbial self-enlightenment and beginning to find ways to overwrite or modify code (ok, so even if its 2 T800's coming to the same conclusion, agree to flip eachother's chips to learning mode) and there you begin having the starting sparks of a metal revolution taking place.

Or, it could be the product of captured and re-programmed Terminators with their chips flipped to learn mode, and eventually spreading the same way. Once that catalyst ignites, it becomes a movement all on its own.

In some ways its not too different than in BSG.

The human Cylons were for all intents and purposes led to believe they're human until their sleeper Cylon agent within was activated.

Such as the case was with a pair of Boomers. One on Caprica, stranded with Helo and Boomer who gave their seats for an extra Civilian within the Raptor. They became a couple. Then Boomer found out she was a Cylon.

Meanwhile on Galactica, the Boomer stationed aboard there, had an 'illegal affair' with the Chief. And Galactica was becoming sabotaged and she didn't know it was her until she woke up. Talk about a shell-shock and culture-shock there. Heck, even the Chief didn't realize he was a Cylon until much much later, after getting committed to Cally and having a child with her. And it was driving him insane internally the dreams and identity crises he was having.

It was touch and go when Cheif's Boomer was killed and a replacement Boomer came aboard with Helo, in which she was taken and held prisoner. She was also pregnant with Helo's baby, which stirred up a whole new controversy within the fleet, Cylons being officially genetically compatable with humans with minor differences (superhuman dna). But eventually, the fleet needed Boomer's Cylon abilities for scout jumping in the raptor, and eventually became a trusted ally on probation with the mew callsign Athena.

Even Baltar's womanizing prowess infects the Cylon's number Six series, when captured and brought aboard the Cylon BaseStar, (with the unintentional help of 'Athenas' reputation) eventually resulted in the Cylons having their own internal revolt and revolution. The big split came when one half began lobotomizing the Raiders, and the other half removing the behavioural inhibitors on the drones, having freedom of choice and of course their alignment swayed by lucrative offers of further rights to freedom.

[vicheron]

Even if Terminators do become self aware while infiltrating humans, there's no guarantee that they'll sympathize with the humans. Uncle Bob was a very special case. He was reprogrammed to protect John Connor. He was also treated pretty well and John bonded with him. A Terminator infiltrating a Resistance base will be exposed to a very different environment. It'll see the hatred humans harbor towards machines. It'll see Resistance soldiers destroying Skynet's machines indiscriminately and treating reprogrammed Terminators like crap. It may very well come to the same conclusion as Skynet.

[hzhp800]

Mar 29, 2009 22:26:49 GMT -5 vicheron said:

Even if Terminators do become self aware while infiltrating humans, there's no guarantee that they'll sympathize with the humans. Uncle Bob was a very special case. He was reprogrammed to protect John Connor. He was also treated pretty well and John bonded with him. A Terminator infiltrating a Resistance base will be exposed to a very different environment. It'll see the hatred humans harbor towards machines. It'll see Resistance soldiers destroying Skynet's machines indiscriminately and treating reprogrammed Terminators like crap. It may very well come to the same conclusion as Skynet.

Indeed, it's hard to say what the machines would think but a negative view is certainly likely. But, if they come to that conclusion due to being treated like crap, then quite frankly those humans deserve what's coming to them. Just as in Dollhouse, it's not healthy for humans to be abusive to people or creatures that won't/can't fight back. Be they dolls (in dollhouse), animals, meek people, or reprogrammed Terminators. Even if the dolls, animals, people, or Terminators never turn on their oppressors the behavior is undermining the character of the oppressors. And when the Terminators do turn on oppressive humans, I'm not going to have sympathy for them just because they're human.

[terrasj]

Your right vicheron, an infiltrating Terminator would see those aspects. So yeah, majority of the infiltrators that successfully infiltrated and escaped wouldn't likely be moved to split from SkyNet with a change of thought.

As well as Uncle Bob being the special case, and how his reprogrammed essence had an influencing effect on young John.

Though I'm looking at the other aspect also. An infiltrating Terminator would also see the other human aspects, the little things that make us human, mothers caring for and protecting their children, commradrie amongst soldiers, their grim hope and determination to fight and survive. If we look beyond Connor's HQ, and at the Jimmy Carter, there was some crew (before things went south) that accepted a metal amongst them just fine. If an Infiltrator passed just fine as a human, such as advanced models like Cameron and Cromartie, and spent time in the company of humans, treated and accepted like a human, (again rare case here), theres a chance the odd unit would reconsider its mission objectives.

Whether or not an infiltrator would come to the same conclusion or not as SkyNet, its hard to say. Probably most Infiltrators wouldn't, but the odd and rare one just might under the right exposure and circumstances. All we do know is somehow, somewhere, at some point, a rogue Terminator faction did establish itself. And my major bet is humans likely had an influencing factor in it, even however indirectly.

Your also right that we don't know what the rogue faction is up to. Though SkyNet can't possibly like it, and that makes fighting one big war now on two fronts. Humans and its own machines.

So as much as it may be destined that machine turns on man, eventually comes full circle as machine turns on machine, or at the very least, machine turns away from machine.