An alternate way of understanding time travel

[timstuff]

Okay, so here's what I'm thinking... What if we are mistaken in how the nature of the TDE works? What if rather than catapulting a passanger from one time to the next inside of a bubble, the bubble is actually a shield that protects the time traveller while the matter around them is rearranged to either revert or convert to a specific time period? Certianly, this would explain how there could be the effect of "infinite universes" while still only having one actual timeline. This would explain how Skynet and Future!John can actually expect changing the past to alter their present, without actually resorting to a Back to the Future-style disappearing act whenever something changes.

This also means that when Skynet, or anyone tries to change the past, they are not expecting "instant gratification." Rather than being infinite parallel universes that all get seen through to their conclusions, with the TDE simply being a means for traveling between them, it's more like they are hitting the reset button and trying to start the events over again with a handicap / cheat. Does this make sense to anyone else?

[vicheron]

The problem with discussing how time travel works in a story is that we're emotionally attached to the characters so we don't see things clearly. It's much easier for us to talk about time travel if we use examples involving objects and things. Take the grandfather paradox for example. People think that if you go back in time and kill your grandfather, you could somehow cease to exist like in "Back to the Future" but that should never happen since even if you kill your grandfather, the matter that you're made of will still exist. Instead of becoming you, the matter will just become something else. Rather than thinking of time travel as making things appear or disappear, it's better to think of it as rearranging the structure of matter.

The many worlds interpretation of time travel states that whenever you travel back into time, you're actually traveling to a different quantum universe. Let's say that I travel from 2009 to 1999. I would actually completely disappear from the 2009 universe and appear in a different identical universe where it's still 1999. Since the universes are infinitely diverging, anytime when there's a potential for a paradox, a new quantum universe is created to resolve it.

Another interpretation is that time is irrelevant. In quantum entanglement, time isn't even a factor. There is no past or future, all things are preceding simultaneously. This actually allows both alterable and predestined timelines. The caveat with the alterable interpretation is that the past and the future have to affect each other equally. The effect of the future on the past has to be equal to resulting effect of the past on the future. If you send something to the past, you have to take an equal amount of mass/energy into the future.

There is also a combination of the two interpretations. The future has already happened but it can still affect the past in such a way that it doesn't affect itself. Instead, the future can affect the past by allowing it to proceed to a different future. For example, if I go back in time and killed my past self, the future where I don't die still exists but the past is no longer linked to that future, instead it begins to move towards a different future and I can no longer go back to the future I came from.

[timstuff]

The problem with the "infinite universes" model, when taken literally, is that all timelines will eventually lead to the conclusion that the time displacement equipment does not work. In 2027, when John Connor sends someone back to stop Skynet from being built, if he continues to exist after sending the person back, then it means that even if the person was successful it will have no effect on the timeline where John currently exists. Basically, it's only possible for one timeline to be saved, even though all the others are just as real, and therefore just as relevant. If the infinite universes actually exist and continue to exist well after someone has traveled to or from one of them, then that means that the Connors' struggle is merely to be able to experience the one timeline that has the most pleasant outcome, which really makes everything seem kind of pointless.

Rather, I prefer the model where the infinite universes don't actually exist, and are merely an illustration for how the timeline can be altered and moved from one position to another. In the model I've proposed, all matter in the universe has a fixed path that it naturally travels on, and the only way to actually alter the set pattern of the universe is through "time displacement." If a person gets inside of the Time Displacement Field to go back in time, they are actually rapidly reversing the direction in which all matter moves, while preserving their own matter. From that point forward, all mater resumes its natural movement, except where the time traveler alters it. Therefore, when the timeline finally catches up to a point in which someone uses time displacement equipment again, the cycle happens all over again.

This model is slightly more compatible with the concept of linear time-- that is, the timeline (or matter in general) is always moving, but it's possible to either put it in reverse, or rapidly increase its speed. The end result is very similar to the multiple universes model, an does explain why time paradoxes don't happen (the TDE bubble prevents whatever is inside from changing with the rest of the universe's matter), but the big difference is that there is ultimately only one reality which changes with each time traveler, rather than the time traveler merely jumping from one parallel universe to another.

No matter what happens though, unless the model of time travel includes paradoxes, the consumption of energy becomes a problem. In my model, the problem comes about when there is more than one version of a person at the same time (i.e., young Derek Reese and old Derek Reese). In the case of infinite universes, we need a source of energy for each time a new universe is created. It's one of those bizarre little mysteries that I guess we have to accept, or else it becomes an even bigger mess.

[VALIANT CHAMPION]

It's possible John Henry jumped to a future with John Connor while John Connor and Cat jumped to an alternative future without him.

[timstuff]

Actually, it's not. Things only get screwy when multiple parties take trips to the past. It doesn't matter if John Henry went through time first or not though, because inevitably he and John C. were travelling to the same future, and John C. was going to catch up with him through the TDE by the time they reached 2027. Someone else explained it a while ago, and they did a much better job than me...

[t8bit]

Apr 20, 2009 2:19:39 GMT -5 timstuff said:

In 2027, when John Connor sends someone back to stop Skynet from being built, if he continues to exist after sending the person back, then it means that even if the person was successful it will have no effect on the timeline where John currently exists.

This happened on the show to a degree. Derek had found out about Kyle being sent to the past. A decent amount of time had passed and they all still existed there. You might assume that it was just a successful prevention of interference from Skynet, but that implies change anyways. If Skynet was truly able to make a change, then it did, and Kyle made changes too. They may have been small changes, but changes nonetheless. If Skynet was unable to make changes, the sending of Kyle becomes superfluous. If the universe is maintained by some sort of non-interference principle, then there really shouldn't have been worry over this terminator going back to kill Sarah. You could chalk it up to both Skynet and John misunderstanding time travel, but not to the degree that time travel has happened in the franchise.

The same thing happened with Jesse. When she came back from the sub mission, Derek had already been gone. Her future didn't simply blink from existence or undergo some sort of radical modification (at least visibly).

Even though no real idea of time travel really works as a logical, unified theory for the franchise, at this point, a multiverse might be able to explain the mysteries of where the duplicate Derek went. Or the duplicate Kyle for that matter. We might just happen to be viewing one particular world line. I know it doesn't make sense logically for Skynet or the resistance to even care about other worlds, but like I said, no method of time travel really makes sense for the franchise as a whole.

I also think we might be giving it much more thought than is necessary. While there are some interesting scenarios presented by the writers about time travel, I don't think they've thought through all the nuts and bolts of it. It's a shame too, because a series dealing with multiple occurrences of time travel has the tendency to be a really cerebral sci-fi show. But that is such a niche that most viewers wouldn't even care.

[vicheron]

The third interpretation might work with what we've seen in TSCC. The future can't change the past in such a way that it will change itself. Whenever the future makes a change to the past, the past instead creates a new future separate from the original future. The old future can't affect anything in the new timeline. However, it can still go to a time before the timeline diverges. That means Jesse could have gone back to a time with Derek before the timeline changes.

[timstuff]

Apr 20, 2009 16:14:00 GMT -5 t8bit said:

This happened on the show to a degree. Derek had found out about Kyle being sent to the past. A decent amount of time had passed and they all still existed there. You might assume that it was just a successful prevention of interference from Skynet, but that implies change anyways. If Skynet was truly able to make a change, then it did, and Kyle made changes too. They may have been small changes, but changes nonetheless. If Skynet was unable to make changes, the sending of Kyle becomes superfluous. If the universe is maintained by some sort of non-interference principle, then there really shouldn't have been worry over this terminator going back to kill Sarah. You could chalk it up to both Skynet and John misunderstanding time travel, but not to the degree that time travel has happened in the franchise.

The thing is, when Kyle went back in time he was not modifying the past, since he was part of a time loop. His disappearance in 2027 would still be noticed by the people of 2027, since all that Kyle was doing was ensuring that the current form of the future would come to fruition. If you think about it, for the Kyle time loop to happen, there would have had to be alternate timelines before it that lead up to it. I think that in TSCC, while time loops are certainly possible they are not terribly common.

[t8bit]

I know he wasn't modifying the past, at least in T1. To me, the implication is that if you can change the past, a stable loop should never be able to occur. With Judgment Day occurring in 2011 instead of 1997 (or 1999 as this show implies), I find it hard to believe that Kyle could even exist, much less fulfill a loop. I don't think a mutable and immutable timeline can coexist.

Anyways, that is besides my point that the future didn't cease to exist when Derek went back, and he was going back to modify the past.

[vicheron]

I think the reason why people have a hard time of accepting the predestination paradox is because they see it in terms of choice. People think that if time travel doesn't allow people to change the future then it's fate and no one truly has free will. However, the inability to change the future may actually be due to a fundamental law of the universe. There are certain things that are simply impossible regardless of what choices you make. You can't create matter or energy from nothing regardless of how much you may want it to happen. If you view time travel not in terms of people but in terms of objects in motion then you'll see that certain things just aren't possible. Maybe the reason why the future can't be changed is because there has to be a conservation of various forces. Changing the timeline may require the addition or removal of mass/energy/movement that makes it just as impossible as a perpetual motion machine.

[MetalMint]

I actually just recently wrote a small paper on Time Travel without paradoxes. So, think I will post for you to enjoy:

Movie-directors by their crazy bizarre logic have made a number of ways to time travel. That are mostly pledged with mind bending paradoxes. So, I have come up with a logical way to time travel that will not have paradoxes.

First when traveling the time machine needs to exist in a different frame of time. The relative time in and around the machine is at a different rate then the outside of the machine.

Unmakeing paradox: Going back past the date the time the machine was build will destroy the time machine.
Second when you go back in time, the time machine causes all previous moments in time to be erased. The previous time line ceases to exist. Effectively “Putting the genie back into the bottle” in a way so to speak. Since everything in and around the time machine exists in a different frame of time you can escape getting erased as you travel back in time. Building the time machine, being born and other events like it are no longer causally connected to you or the time machine existing.

Predestination paradox: The time traveler is caught in a loop of events that "predestines" or "predates" them to travel back in time. Any event caused will have already happened. Actions taken by a time traveler would be part of history all along, so it is impossible for the time traveler to change history in any way.

For example: In the movie Terminator 2 the humans never invented the skynet technology themselves. The engineers at Cyberdyne got it by reverse engineering the robot from the future. Which would not exist without skynet.

Ontological paradox: The possibility of influencing the past while time traveling. Would only be fulfilling the role in creating history, not changing it. Creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

For example: In the movie Back to the Future Marty stops at the diner where Goldie Wilson was working. When Wilson was promising to do something with his life, Then Marty says "That's right! He's gonna be Mayor". Giving Goldie Wilson the inspiration to become mayor in Marty's time.

Everything that used to exist as you travel back in time no longer exists any more. Because of this you are now allowed to make changes. You can affect the past when you go back in time and change anything. Since the past is now the present, events caused have not happened already at some other point in time. Because there is no longer a time loop it solves the paradoxes.

Important Note: This is not time travel to a parallel universe. So, this allows you to travel back to the original time line. Also, because it's not a parallel universe it is possible to undo all or most of your changes. If there was some type of unseen butterfly effect caused by your actions.

Grandfather paradox: You kill your own grandfather now you can't exist.
If things are left untampered everything will now happen over again the exact same way. Since you were from the future the once random events are now predictable. Only the things your effecting and tampering with can create unpredictable events.

Everything in and around the time machine as noted before are not causally connected to events the present universe. This is the key to defeating the great grandfather paradox. You can kill your own “grandfather” because it's not causally connected to you.

Important Note: Everyone and everything that travels back in time can create a doppelgänger effect. This is not always the case depending on the time you go back to. For example so long as you don't go past the date you were born the doppelgänger effect would not happen.

Even though killing your own grandfather will not causally effect you. This event would however be connected to the the doppelgänger of you. Your doppelgänger is you in every way. So long as the events of your doppelgänger's life are not tampered with in a meaningful way.

Having a doppelgänger can create some problems. For example if your doppelgänger creates another time machine and overlaps your time line while going back in time. So, you will need to stop your doppelgänger from overlapping your time line in some way.

Possible solutions to the doppelgänger problem:
* Confront your doppelgänger in some way through reasoning.
* Effect your doppelgänger's life events in some way to stop the intersecting time line.
* Terminate the doppelgänger's life.

Important Note: You must stop anyone else from going back in time without you inside the time machine. Because they could be overlapping your time line which would erase you.

Going to the future.
Traveling into the future is different. No parts of the time line get erased when traveling to the future. You just let the present continue. The machine still however needs to exist in a different frame of time. The relative time in and around the machine is at a different rate then the outside of the machine.

Definition of the time line:
Having a definition for the time line in very important. So, I have taken the following assumptions:
* The past has been set in a time line already.
* The present in always currently in existence.
* The future has not happened yet and has not been created already. It has never been set in a time line.

The main reason why this method of time travel solves the paradoxes is because no infinite time loops are ever created.
-----------------------------
-----------------------------
This method seems compatible enough to possibly work for the terminator movies and even the SCC.

But, I don't think the Terminator movie and TV directors bothered to logically plot everything out like that. I think the directors were really thinking something like this: The future has all ready happened on the time line as well as the past. All of which are constantly existing in the present simultaneously. But, whenever someone or something time travels there is a delayed reaction to events. It's sort of like looking a stars in the sky. Even if a star is burnt out you can't tell until years later because of the time it takes for the light to travel from one place to the next. All of which may or may not have infinite universes. After that it was just a bunch of snap snap, grin grin, wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more.

[vicheron]

The predestination paradox and the ontological paradox are essentially the same thing.

[MetalMint]

They are very close, and very similar to the same thing. Usually they will happen both at the same time. But, create slightly different types of paradoxes.

Predestination paradox is more on the existence of events happening. Where you get caught in a loop of events (AKA: causal loop or closed time loop) that predestines what happens. That skips back like a broken record.

While ontological paradox happens when you pass something from the future to the past. That will only cause the future to be become the same thing that was originally passed back. Which makes it so there is no discernible origin of events. So events changed will not actually change anything in the future.

[vicheron]

Ontological paradox also creates a loop. It's like if I went back in time and gave Shakespeare everything he ever wrote before he became a playwright. That creates a loop where Shakespeare receives his works from me so that he would "write" them so that I could get it and take it back in time to give to him so that he would "write" it so that I could get it and take it back to give it to him, and so on.

[MetalMint]

The difrence is with an ontological paradox there does not have to be a loop. There is a difrence between knowing beforehand and predestination. They can offten happen at the same time but they are diffrent types of paradoxes.