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Post by littleb on Mar 21, 2009 5:45:15 GMT -5
For the whole "Jesse transformation." I don't think it was a transformation. It's just that we finally understood her motivations. It's like Darth Vader... you love to hate him and then you find out why he turned to the Dark Side. Kind of a shame that just when her character had all come together, she's probably disappeared never to be seen again! But I think this episode was about John - John Connor - as much (if not more) than it was about Jesse. John was responsible for everything that went down on the sub. He redesigned the mission, left the humans in the dark which immediately sewed seeds of mistrust and mutiny. He then rejigs the safety override on Queeg putting the metal in a position to override probably the one thing that helps the humans sleep tight in their bunks at night - the "standard behavioural protocols" that force metal to submit to chip removal. Bad move Connor. He also underestimated one massive human factor - the temptation of curiosity which ultimately resulted in "hell" being unleashed under the ocean. Dietz made a good point in terms of the risks of Connor's tactics - metal is everywhere, in every strategic position, just waiting for an order from Skynet. No wonder this Connor is so maligned. I agree with K8tie, it was a totally unnecessary reveal. All the pieces were already in place to explain her actions, nothing else was needed. Consequently tacking on an emotional/female-centric reason felt forced and undermined all the good character stuff they had developed for Jesse - and she really has had a decent arc. Not only that, but Jesse has never struck me as the slightest bit maternal, so suddenly making her all sad about the loss of a baby was straight out of left field. The Jesse they've written would have been more likely to say "oh well" <shrug> and pick her up gun to go kick more metal ass. Not lie in her bunk crying and thinking up baby names she'll now never get to use. Plus the med stuff didn't make sense. Maybe if they'd shown her bleeding, or having some kind of abdominal discomfort, then the miscarriage thing wouldn't have felt so forced (and the show is usually better than that at planting reveal clues) but they didn't. They mentioned a concussion and the fact that she didn't "look well." Not enough. Yes there is the potential that a scan revealed a dead foetus and she's yet to miscarry it but that's asking a lot of an already sceptical audience. Sorry boys. I don't think he did either. I don't think he stopped himself because of Jesse though, I think he stopped himself because John Connor gave him an order. "John Connor let her go." I think it was just the director providing a nice bit of symmetry for the two episodes. We got the endo burning, the bird in Cameron's hand (not dead and only a 51% chance!) and the cleaning lady moving Jesse's lamp. It did jar a little - how many hands did Cam end up saving!? - but I kinda liked what he was doing anyways. I know it was retcon, but we also knew it was coming and - most of what he said - we'd already kinda guessed when Dekker first flapped his gob and let loose with a load of spoilers. The first time I watched the scene with him and Jesse I thought "uh oh...that's a lot of exposition, not sure Dekker pulled it all off" but it did kinda work. If he's picked up on the "carrots and apples" then he was suspicious of her from the start so it makes sense that he would then notice other stuff. One thing I did like, was his motivation, which made all his actions with Riley - i.e. letting her stick around and trying to play her at her own game make a little more sense (if you squint really hard.) He wasn't motivated by Jesse's idea that he wanted it all to be "real" but that he wanted to "win." It was a nice non-emotional switch and I didn't expect it. I don't think this John, our John, is going to be the same as Jesse or Derek's John, I do think he's learning from the feedback he's receiving. I would swallow a lot of even more major retcon for that ending scene. I loved all the Sarah/John scenes in this one. Sarah is actually being a mom. Look! She's doing it! She's not worried John took a risk going to the morgue, she's worried because of how he'll now remember Riley. She works hard to break the barriers he's put up between them and in the end she's rewarded by him turning to her for comfort. So thank you Ashley and Zack a) for remembering that bloody big hole Sarah cut into the floor and b) for giving us Sarah and John back. "Well, you won those fights" that line cracked me up, and I don't exactly know why! Sarah's misplaced motherly pride just makes me laugh, I guess... I thought the same, saw the barrier and thought "he goes to the bloody robot and I'm writing an angry letter!" But Sarah's watching, and Cameron's not. Cameron stares straight ahead, oblivious. Sarah sees her son's distress and reaches out - human contact - and John falls to her. It's beautifully played and directed and a nice full circle from Mr Ferguson. This John seeks the comfort of his mother, not the machine (is that Cameron's intention? Is that why she's so cold? Or is she just being Cameron?) Maybe there's hope for him yet.
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t101
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Post by t101 on Mar 21, 2009 5:46:14 GMT -5
Oh, another thing, this is probably the most 'John Connor' that Thomas Dekker has ever been. He can really pull it off when he's given the right material. Its quite possible the T1k in the sub is Weaver now. The metal in the Sub saw it couldn't trust humans, as they opened the box before it gotten to Connor. Then Weaver delivers the line to John Henry that humans may prove to disappoint him. Interesting idea.
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terrasj
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Rossbond Connor Crew
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Post by terrasj on Mar 21, 2009 6:30:26 GMT -5
Edit / Addendum: In my previous post on page 11, I noted a possibility of a Future!Cameron. This goes directly back to a post I made -= here: Cameron Philips thread =- after watching 2x18. The Jesse / Cameron scene showed Cameron having a more human quality, subtle, but its there. Also, in the Sarah / Cameron scene, where Sarah tried again to drive away Cameron, hinting about Future!John sending away Cameron, and Cameron had that look on her face. Its possible Sarah struck a nerve within Cameron. Not just the twitch in the left hand again, but perhaps there was a ring of truth to it that Sarah didn't even know about. Why wouldn't there have been 2 Camerons in the future? The one thats been with him 20yrs from the previous time machine sent to the past cycle, and the new fresh one that was history repeating itself as the wheel of time turning around again. Since Future!John had a well and developed "Mature" Cameron as his personal confidant (possible companion too?), why not send the newer / "Younger" Cameron back in time to maintain that fullfilling legacy that'll maintain and ensure he's got a Mature!Cameron along side him always. Timstuff had speculated this as well - there being both Young and Mature Camerons, on the same Cameron Philips page[/b] Makes perfect sense to me. It also ties, if not backs up a theory I have had for a while now. The glitches such as in her left hand not being physical chip damage, nor the twitch in her left hand motor control. Future!Cameron had some more subtle human qualities about her. So perhaps the glitches Cameron's experiencing in the present now are parts of her code developing / evolving, and somewhat unstable as a result. Present!Cameron's still somewhat straightforward and blunt, like she was in the minivan in Desert Cantos. Future!Cameron was more like 'oh by the way' in a notation she felt she should mention and pass along to Jesse, with a tone of sincerity about Jesse's miscarraige. Its how Future!Cameron had come about and offered her genuine condolences to Jesse about the miscarriage. I'm not trying to say that the result of Cameron being alongside John for 20yrs has allowed Cameron to evolve or transcend to become virtually human, but rather has grown / matured from 20yrs lifehood of being online, understanding humans and human values more. And maybe that had really boiled Jesse's blood but good, to hate Cameron in the present. Jesse mis-directing all her self made blame on Cameron, for what Cameron's become in the future, and for offering that bit of miscarriage sincerity - sincerity coming from a metal. John's personal metal. :edit: citation properly to Timestuff added.
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Post by aceplace57 on Mar 21, 2009 8:50:08 GMT -5
Perhaps, the T-1000's mission was a test? Can the humans be trusted? Will they honor the peace initiative? I seriously doubt that box actually kept the T-1000 imprisoned. The box was simply a container to travel in. The T-1000 could leave anytime it wanted. The T-1000's safety was always in the hands of the humans. There's a long history of envoys coming out (under a white flag) to talk and negotiate with their enemies.
Opening the box was a serious breach of trust. The T-1000's response was remarkably restrained. I did not see hell come out of that box. Far from it. The T-1000 demonstrated its ability to defend itself, then hid, and waited to see what the humans intentions were.
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Post by Black Canary on Mar 21, 2009 12:07:05 GMT -5
I don't know... it almost seemed like the T-1000 defrosted when they opened the box. I seriously think it could have been keeping it in stasis until opened by John (or whoever it was meant for.) Oh, another thing, this is probably the most 'John Connor' that Thomas Dekker has ever been. He can really pull it off when he's given the right material. I couldn't agree more. Thomas Dekker was amazing in this ep and finally gave us a true glimpse of the man John Connor will become. I was both surprised and not surprised to see John in the room with Jesse. I had been routing for a showdown between them but I kept thinking "how would they meet if Riley or Derek never spill the beans?" I guess this shows John is a hell of a lot smarted than we thought. He's also a lot better at keeping secrets because I did NOT see this coming. Back to Thomas Dekker though... holy crap! *bows* That guy can act. The ending where John finally breaks down (you knew it had to happen) brought tears to my eyes. So I say it again... DAMN! Thomas keep doing what you're doing!
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Post by thecolours on Mar 21, 2009 14:01:35 GMT -5
About the recton thing. I think the writers worked around it carefully, by not giving us a firm date when John put all the pieces together. He said it was "A bad day. A really bad day." That could be any day for John Connor. lol By far my favorite part of the John-Jesse confrontation is when John, mockingly, was pointing the gun at her, when he figured out that Riley never went to child services. The whole scene was a role reversal. John playied the antagonist, and Jesse the victim. It felt like an old Bond film, when 007 is being lectured by the villain about how smart he is, and how he has everything figured out. I loved it. I also liked how Complications tied in so intricately into this epsidoe. The season feels more tightly wound together with little nods like this.
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wb5
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Post by wb5 on Mar 21, 2009 14:36:40 GMT -5
I'm going to add my voice to those who are not sure Jesse is dead. I'm leaning toward her being alive, even; Derek pulled the trigger, but there was no bang, only a click. Was there even a bullet in the chamber? His response to John "John Connor let her go", as he asserts "we follow Connor", also seems to indicate Jesse lives. They can bring her back in S3, if they want.
On the one hand, you could say that the submarine crew messed up the mission completely by opening the box and then turning on their captain and on each other (which is the "hell" Jesse was talking about, I suppose - the distrust all around). On the other hand, I think future John (if he is even still really alive - we never see him, in the future, and we don't even hear him - everything seems to go through Cameron) has to accept a large part of the blame, with all his secrecy. He brought the crew into a position where they had to blindly trust their captain, and we know Terminators can "go bad". And we still don't know if the apparent "peace-offer" or even "alliance" from this separate faction of Terminators was genuine. OK, Weaver (it seems likely this is the T1000 in the box) may have gotten "agitated" because the box was opened before it should have been and armed humans were around her, but if she hadn't killed right away, the situation would likely not have spiralled out of control. I think the crew was only prudent in assuming they should not just bring a potential weapon of mass destruction to Serrano Point, when they have no confirmation those really are Connor's orders - they only have Queeg's word for it, and what if he has been compromised? John Connor, or Cameron, never should have let it come to this situation, allthough I suppose they feared the resistance would freak out at the thought of an "alliance" with self-directing Terminators. It ended up being a really unfortunate situation, with no-one and everyone to blame.
I don't think Jesse transformed, it's only that her story was brought to the foreground, this time around. I have never seen a stock "evil" character in her, and there were no surprises regarding her character. She's a well done antagonist, one you can sympatise with - to an extent - in spite of what she did. TSCC is great in this kind of thing (Ellison in s1 and probably Weaver now being other examples), much more so than the lauded BSG.
I'm not surprised John knew Riley was from the future - he should have, at the latest when he heard about the "bleeched skulls" speech - but there is a little ret-con (though nothing too bad) when he says he started to follow Riley. That must have been before her suicide attempt (too little time afterwards, Riley was dead shortly after she reappeared from vanishing in the hospital), and I doubt John was supposed to know all this already in "Earthlings". I absolutely loved it, though, that John had noticed the oddities about Riley and that he realised how she protected him from Cromartie. His secrecy in the present (I doubt he even told Cameron and/or Sarah, partly to protect Derek) seems to mirror his secrecy in the future. I understand he wanted Riley to speak up herself (as he explicitly invited her to do on the day she died), but he should have confronted her sooner about it.
I liked it that he didn't want to kill Jesse. He recognises that he has some of Riley's blood on his hands, too, and Jesse is part victim, part perpetrator. With hindsight, John was actually quite right in part 1 that Sarah "didn't know anything" - but that was because he never told her anything.
The scenes at the end were great. I loved Cameron with the dove; I guess she has regained control over her hand, now. Sarah, John and Cameron on the couch was also great. Cameron (apparently) not noticing John looking at her, and then John finding support with Sarah (and Cameron did give a brief, somewhat startled look then). I wonder if Cameron simply really did not notice/did not know what to do (and she may mimic Sarah then, now that she's learned, if there is a next time John loses a loved one), if Cameron wanted him to seek comfort with Sarah or if she was just cold.
I suppose we can be quite sure now that there really is a "non-aligned" faction of Terminators out there, and Weaver's "humans will disappoint you" is suggestive that she is part of it (and likely the very one on the "Carter"). I am now quite sure that the Coltan/drone factory in the desert was not from Weaver/Zeira Corp, but from a full Skynet operation with a different (and more conventional, from machine POV) aim. The answer was "no" in the future, but if/when the Connors cross Weaver's path, it might be "yes", if this full Skynet faction becomes a threat to Weaver and JH.
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Post by VALIANT CHAMPION on Mar 21, 2009 16:33:04 GMT -5
Why did Cameron say that John died in( 200?) in the pilot episode before they made the time jump? Does that mean that in her timeline she was actually running the resistance by herself? I have always been confused about that statement she made.
But in Derek's timeline we know that Connor is alive. Even though we do not see Connor we can be fairly certian that Derek did see him in D&D because Cameron tells him that John wants to see him. That also Derek is telling his friends about the conversation between him and John and going back in time at the end of that episode.
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Post by Hollow Crown on Mar 21, 2009 16:34:43 GMT -5
I don't ever recall Cameron saying John dies...
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t101
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Post by t101 on Mar 21, 2009 16:38:29 GMT -5
She doesn't. She says Sarah dies from cancer.
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wb5
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Post by wb5 on Mar 21, 2009 16:49:12 GMT -5
Connor is likely alive then (or he must have died very recently and Cameron is hiding it), but he seems really quite aloof in Jesse's timeline, then. She has a point.
I'm glad present John didn't kill her; even though she murdered Jesse, she didn't really deserve it. John realises his future self is partly to blame, I think.
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Post by aceplace57 on Mar 21, 2009 22:01:48 GMT -5
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Post by vicheron on Mar 21, 2009 22:49:13 GMT -5
John seems to have misinterpreted future John's actions. He thinks that future John uses reprogrammed Terminators to preserve human lives but clearly that's not the case considering how not only can reprogrammed Terminators turn bad at any moment, even when they're good they still kill without hesitation.
Also, future John has really lost it. Not letting his own feelings get in the way of making important decisions is one thing but completely ignoring the feelings of those who fight for him is just insane.
Then there's the T-1000. It was frozen. I highly doubt that it was supposed to be able to get out of the box whenever it wanted. Otherwise it wouldn't have even needed a box. It could have just morphed into a box or any other seemingly harmless object.
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Post by Hollow Crown on Mar 21, 2009 22:59:17 GMT -5
Anyone else enjoy the bird scene with Cameron? She had a nice, simple smile that made her look human.
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Mar 22, 2009 1:03:37 GMT -5
Cameron needs to leave the birds alone - haven't they suffered enough already?
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