wb5
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Post by wb5 on Mar 18, 2009 6:51:42 GMT -5
You deserve the karma! of the day. Thanks! What Sarah's trying to imply doesn't make much sense. John didn't want Cameron around... so he sent her "away" to protect himself at the vulnerable age of 16 when his personality is just forming and when they possibly have the next 20 years to spend together. This changes what? Not to mention he'd just destroy her. And on top of that, John also sent Derek and Kyle away, so apparently he also didn't want them around any longer... Still, it looks like Cameron is more or less buying it. Silly robot. But I guess it corresponds nicely to her own view, expressed earlier, that John needs to be alone. And we know that's where TSCC is heading. I don't particularly like that, I hope there is an S3 to get them all back together again. Cameron's twitching in that scene is unsettling, though. She appears to do that when she is conflicted about killing someone, so maybe Sarah trying to keep her away from John provoked this response (I very much doubt Cameron is a threat to John, in this scene, despite the gun). If Cameron has any sorts of "feelings", her often confrontational relationship with Sarah would no doubt be a major source of conflicting emotion. - John sitting the same chair that Jesse was sitting in at the end of the last episode in her hotel room. He has a gun in his hand, sitting back and says to Jesse "Don't pretend you don't know who I am", to which Jesse responds, "You're John Connor" - In slow motion, Derek points a gun and then the picture cuts to Jesse running in slow motion up some stairs and then aclose up on someone pulling the trigger to a gun. All three images may or may not be related. Karma for posting this! The pretty much inevitable killing of Jesse - I think it will be John, because Dekker said that John would "deal" with Jesse. Now, that doesn't have to mean he'll kill her, but in context it looks like he will. As Valiant wrote, if he would even consider using the kill switch because he suspected Cameron, what would he do if Jesse confesses? Derek - I don't think he will want to kill Jesse, and if John is already dealing with her anyway... I also wonder if Jesse's line "hell came out of it" will turn out to have been spoken to John, in this scene. It seems a more natural place for Jesse to say this, instead of in a future scene with Cameron. I'm beginning to think Sarah does something to Cameron. That would be a betrayal in John's eyes. Sarah would push the button on that explosive trigger in a New York minute. That's a possibility, but wouldn't it pretty much require either for the trigger switch to be fake or for Cameron to die? We know the last doesn't happen, so how would Cameron survive it? OK, I guess she could have removed the explosives at some point, but why would she suddenly be sure she wouldn't "go bad" anymore? Or maybe she turns out to just be out of range. It's an intriguing possibility, but I think it's rather unlikely. Sarah could likely have ambushed and destroyed Cameron x times already if she wanted to, but she knows John wouldn't thank her for it. So what would Cameron do that makes Sarah decide she must be destroyed, regardless of what John wants? And she also would have to find out about the killswitch in the first place (though she is capable of that, no doubt, just like she found the parts). I don't think there's a way for the writers to screw it up with all the pieces set up like they are. Or to put it more positively, the writers have set this up brilliantly and we should expect it to play out that way as well. I agree, the writers did a very good job sowing the seeds and setting the whole thing up. There seems to be considerable planning in this show, at least on a season-wide base. I like that. She's always had a very on-off relationship with Cameron. She tolerates Cam because she knows John needs the protection, but at the moment she's certainly not trusting her (and probably never has.) In the clip, Cameron says about the police IDing Riley's body "I need to be with him if they do." Why? She sounds like she means for emotional support and that's totally not why she's around. I don't think she wants to give emotional support (or at least, that's not what she means when she says she needs to be with him). She did have a gun in her hands, and she expected the police to start hunting John, so I would guess she means she needs to be with John to protect him. I agree though, that Cameron has given Sarah plenty of reasons to be very wary of her. Why did Cameron never tell them about her nightly visits to the library (which don't appear to be sinister in any way), nor even about her fighting and taking out another Terminator on her own? She is too secretive/manipulative, even if it may all be with the best of intentions. On top of her malfunctions, this isn't likely to make Sarah trust or even tolerate her. I wonder whether the "betrayal" is actually going to be Cameron going after Sarah. That twitching seems to be opening up a possessiveness towards John that can't be good news. Who knows, the police station rampage might be a hunt, not a rescue... (and if so, I am totally on board with that!) Cameron did seem to fight the urge to kill Sarah in the preview scene - Sarah is an obstacle to be with (and presumably, protect) John, right now. But I doubt the police station will be a hunt (though maybe she will want it to look that way, to the authorities and Skynet agents). There are promo pictures available, that show Cameron and John together, reading the news headlines ('Sarah Connor arrested') on a TV in a shop window. So, Cameron still is with John and presumably functions "normally" (as normal as she ever is). That John would tell her to free Sarah seems the most likely conclusion. In one of the previews, in the scene where "Skynet's agents" (the watercooler Terminator, presumably) attack, Cameron is also briefly seen pulling Sarah out of the line of fire, so I think she still considers protecting Sarah to be one of her duties - "twitchy" fingers notwithstanding.
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Post by littleb on Mar 18, 2009 8:50:18 GMT -5
bit of snippage Cameron's not a pet. She's incredibly dangerous (which makes Sarah possibly a little suicidal for provoking her) and - as evidenced by the twitching - not entirely reliable. If we're going with the pet analogy, Sarah's probably thinking along the lines of: it's time to put the pooch down, especially if Cameron's still number one on the list of Riley murderers during that scene. Everyone seems to like to go for Sarah's throat. Maybe a nice scarf would help... The only thing she appears to be doing at the moment is driving a huge wedge in between John and Sarah. John continues to lash out with all the forethought and insight of a 6 year old in his defense of Cameron, Sarah meanwhile calmly lists exactly why his little buddy isn't exactly Ms Dependable. "You don't know anything" just isn't a good enough answer for the points Sarah raises. She knew enough to warn him that Riley would wind up dead; "Lot of bullets fly around here. Someone will." Nice one, forgot about that! I think - from this clip - Sarah's answer would be "take it out back and shoot it." Meanwhile with Allergygal... That twitching seems to be opening up a possessiveness towards John that can't be good news. Who knows, the police station rampage might be a hunt, not a rescue... (and if so, I am totally on board with that!) I don't think she will, I think she'll be there on an escape mission, but it's fun to consider these options. I can't place what's happening when from the spoiler reel. I was just wondering what makes Sarah "fear for her life" in 2X20 and so far, the only thing I can come up with is Cameron! Not going to involve secret daughters is it?! Kinda going with the Jesse line of deception? It's quite a nice theory. Horrible and devious, but nice. I think that's more likely. I think something might happen to Sarah that tips her over the top once and for all in terms of her being used to get to John. Could be. I could live with Cam on the rampage till she's shocked back into submission in the next episode! I don't think John will ever forgive her if she kills Charley though and he's window shopping with her in the next ep.
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t101
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Post by t101 on Mar 18, 2009 12:49:05 GMT -5
I want to see no more Cameron's actions being excused by a glitch. I interpreted what happened in 'Ourselves alone' as her dealing with the aftermath of her glitch and I liked the complexity portrayed quiet a lot. Another episode of "ZOMG! She's evil now!" would be quiet lame.
If they really do want Cameron to so something like that, make it a complicated choice.
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Post by aceplace57 on Mar 18, 2009 13:51:56 GMT -5
I'm surprised more fans aren't discussing the growing animosity between Sarah & Cameron. It's been simmering for the past 27 or so episodes. The writers have been slowly turning up the heat all season. Somethings going to explode very soon. I think the writers have invested too much for it to just fizzle out. I agree Cameron won't be destroyed, but somethings going to happen. I think this episode will set things in motion. Sarah's reaching the point where she won't tolerate Cameron any more. I see Sarah as the betrayer. Her time in the desert hardened her. Sarah will act regardless of the consequences. Even if it means losing John for awhile. These next 4 weeks are going to be tough. Let's petition Fox for a 4 hour marathon Friday night. ;D I want answers now! The suspense is killing me.
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Post by nordwest on Mar 18, 2009 16:45:42 GMT -5
What I do not understand in the Sarah Cameron confrontation, why is Cameron buying Sarah's strange logic? Can she really be that stupid? Or is it just her malfunctioning chip? Everything seemed to be possible with Cameron glitching.
I like the Weaver Henry preview. I think that also in this story line something serious is arising.
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t101
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Post by t101 on Mar 18, 2009 16:56:54 GMT -5
What I do not understand in the Sarah Cameron confrontation, why is Cameron buying Sarah's strange logic? Can she really be that stupid? Or is it just her malfunctioning chip? We have not seen the whole thing. But I agree. Cameron has grown fairly clever and should be able to see the flaw. I hope they aren't dumbing her down.
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Post by VALIANT CHAMPION on Mar 18, 2009 17:23:13 GMT -5
What would cause Sarah to decide to disable Cameron despite the risk of making her son angry at her? If Cameron shows Sarah an engagement ring. Okay I watched the Sarah/Cameron scene. Without a doubt Cameron is showing full blown emotion and Sarah knows it. There is no way she couldn't tell that Cameron was getting upset. Why John sent her back we do not know. It seems that Sarah may have the idea that John sent her back on another mission to get rid of her and instead of pursuing the mission she went searching for the younger John to be with him. It may not have been her mission to make the time jump. It could all be her plan to be with John and keep him this time. Not to say this is whats happening. Just saying that Sarah may be thinking along these lines. But we all know that Sarah is a bit on the paranoid and suspicious side. Just like Kyle came back for Sarah even though John never told Kyle to hook up with his mom. Maybe Cameron went searching to be with John even though John never sent her back for that. Then we have to speculate what her original mission was. Maybe she is pursuing her primary mission as a moonlighter. Maybe her job was to locate and identify skynet threats and neutralize them. Of course all this is very hypothetical. Just trying to think out of the box.
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wb5
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Post by wb5 on Mar 18, 2009 18:54:32 GMT -5
Hey, that's not a bad idea at all, Valiant. We still don't know exactly what Cameron was supposed to be doing in the present, maybe she indeed did come back on her own initiative or she has another mission (maybe her frequent library visits have something to do with that - though it could also be pure curiosity). She has always been very vague on her mission and not very forthcoming to questions from Sarah and John.
It would explain why Cameron does appear to be affected by what Sarah is saying.
Then again, she did know about the time machine in the bank vault, which was likely put there on John's orders.
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timstuff
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Post by timstuff on Mar 19, 2009 2:14:51 GMT -5
What's amazing is that Sarah, by her actions, is actually acknowledging that Cameron has feelings to hurt. I mean, come on... The way Sarah was talking, she was in full bitch mode. It's like she's trying to make Cameron run away like an unloved puppy. If Sarah is capable of recognizing that Cameron has feelings to the point where she'd try and use them as a weapon against her, then that really only can mean on thing: Sarah is no longer viewing Cameron as a tactical risk; she's viewing her as competition. It's obvious that Sarah has hated Cameron for her own bigoted reasons from day one, but back then it wasn't personal. Now, Sarah just plain dislikes Cameron as a person, and is trying to push her buttons so that she'll give up on trying to be John's friend and protector. Like I said... Sarah wants Cameron to feel like an unloved puppy.
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Post by allergygal on Mar 19, 2009 5:24:44 GMT -5
What's amazing is that Sarah, by her actions, is actually acknowledging that Cameron has feelings to hurt. I mean, come on... The way Sarah was talking, she was in full bitch mode. It's like she's trying to make Cameron run away like an unloved puppy. If Sarah is capable of recognizing that Cameron has feelings to the point where she'd try and use them as a weapon against her, then that really only can mean on thing: Sarah is no longer viewing Cameron as a tactical risk; she's viewing her as competition. It's obvious that Sarah has hated Cameron for her own bigoted reasons from day one, but back then it wasn't personal. Now, Sarah just plain dislikes Cameron as a person, and is trying to push her buttons so that she'll give up on trying to be John's friend and protector. Like I said... Sarah wants Cameron to feel like an unloved puppy. Sarah certainly does see Cameron as competition (she has since the beginning) as well as an increasingly unreliable (hazardous) weapon to have around. But I don't believe Cameron has any human-type emotional feelings and I'm quite sure Sarah doesn't think so either. So she's not trying to hurt Cameron's feelings any more than when she told her to go to hell in the pilot. The rivalry of purpose between Sarah and Cameron is still playing out, but we're also running into a clash of ideas on how that purpose is best served. So Sarah's trying to use logic on Cameron to get her to question herself and her purpose, just as Cameron has done to Sarah. She's not being a bitch, she's fighting back. Is it personal for Sarah? Absolutely. She's tried to raise John up with the skills and strength of character needed to lead mankind in a war against machines, all the while protecting him from metal assassins that periodically drop in from the future. And she's worked to change his fate — change the future — so he can be free of his horrible destiny and have some chance at a normal life. Now Cameron is saying humans are the problem and more or less suggesting that John should be like a machine. He should live a life without human connection — without emotional ties to anyone. It is completely contrary to what Sarah wants for John. From a cyborg's point of view, it's perfectly logical. Form a human's, well, "what kind of life is that?" Cameron has the capacity to understand what emotion is and she knows it makes humans do stupid, illogical things sometimes. Sarah told her that flat out and she's witnessed it herself many times in Sarah's and John's outbursts and actions. But she doesn't feel it ("I'm a robot. I can't be happy."). And unless she ever can, she'll never understand why a John Connor who's only companion is a robot isn't the John Connor who saves humanity.
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t101
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Post by t101 on Mar 19, 2009 5:44:56 GMT -5
It's an interesting idea about Sarah and Cameron. To answer someone above. Sarah starts acting now because it's becoming clear Cameron is taking John to in vastly different direction than what Sarah envisioned.
As for Cameron's emotions. I think she feels in her own way. She feels confusion about her purpose, she's trying to reconcile a lot of conflicting ideas and her conflicted programming. There is nothing physically wrong with her hand but it keeps twitching almost symbolically like a physical manifestation of the turmoil within her - like humans and our emotions.
Is this something we know?
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timstuff
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Post by timstuff on Mar 19, 2009 6:05:10 GMT -5
From the sounds of it, John was doing a pretty dandy job running the war without any deep human connections. John is the one who chose to send Cameron back, and yet Sarah is second guessing his wisdom. When you think about it, in a way Sarah trying to make a decision for John about Cameron from beyond the grave, and that's just crazy.
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Post by allergygal on Mar 19, 2009 14:21:41 GMT -5
Is this something we know? No, just my thoughts. And actually I think I was a bit too extreme in that. Cameron likely will gain that understanding at some point even without being able to feel human emotion. Right now, though, she doesn't understand it. And I don't think John can lead mankind to victory against the machines if he is what Jesse has said — isolated from everyone and only interacting with a machine. From the sounds of it, John was doing a pretty dandy job running the war without any deep human connections. John is the one who chose to send Cameron back, and yet Sarah is second guessing his wisdom. When you think about it, in a way Sarah trying to make a decision for John about Cameron from beyond the grave, and that's just crazy. In past timelines, sure. If we go back to T1, the resistance had essentially won the war. But in our current timeline, future war certainly doesn't seem to be going very well and by almost all accounts, future!John lives a lonely and isolated life with Cameron as his main, if not only, companion. Sarah isn't second-guessing future!John. Cameron arrived with a declared mission (pressumably from future!John) to protect John and, like it or not, Sarah accepted that. But since the chip damage, Cameron isn't the same. The future!John that sent her has no way of knowing that. Sarah has to react to what is actually happening, not just stick to a blind game plan set forth by her son from 20 years in the future.
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rossbondreturns
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Post by rossbondreturns on Mar 19, 2009 15:09:36 GMT -5
In past timelines, sure. If we go back to T1, the resistance had essentially won the war. But in our current timeline, future war certainly doesn't seem to be going very well and by almost all accounts, future!John lives a lonely and isolated life with Cameron as his main, if not only, companion. Allergygal
Actually if we go back to T1 Kyle assumes they had won that war. He assumes that Skynet has no aces up it's sleeve and assumes that they blewthe joint after he went through. We have never found out if that's a fact. And in fact further exploration in the series has revealed that the war didn't end once Kyle was sent back.
As someone once said assumptions are the Mother of all Muckups.
As for the Future War not going well that's to par, the war has never really gone well. In fact in reality the war wouldn't even be close. It is only through Hollywood magic that humanity even has a chance.
But let's shove that aside.
We don't know even from Jim's scripts really how John led the war, or how he really learned what tactics worked or didn't. Or even whether or not he DID have or at some point in time HAD the help of a Reprogrammed Terminator to help in planning the war.
It is just as possible that Cameron is the only thing that is through John keeping the Resistance even IN the war with a fighting chance.
The only person who really knows just how bad the state of things are inthe Future War...is Future!John and to question his reasoning...would be questioning the reasoning of the only one who KNOWS all the important things that are going on.
Perhaps Future!John wants to give Cameron both a chance to form him up a bit in the past, a chance to see the world he's fighting for, and it's even possible that he sent her back to try to preserve her as long as possible. For all we know she was already a bit flaky in the future and John wanted to give his younger self a chance to fix her, and if that doesn't work give her a place to break down that isn't an underground bunker.
But once again blaming her for the War not going well is just silly, it's never going well, in fact I doubt it's ever gone good...usually it's going okay one step over could be better.
She might be the only thing stopping humans from loosing the war outright.
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t101
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Post by t101 on Mar 19, 2009 15:50:37 GMT -5
In past timelines, sure. If we go back to T1, the resistance had essentially won the war. But in our current timeline, future war certainly doesn't seem to be going very well and by almost all accounts, future!John lives a lonely and isolated life with Cameron as his main, if not only, companion. That depends on who you ask. Jesse thinks John's decisions are questionable. But one of John's generals in D&D clearly said they are making progress they weren't able to before and at that time John was said to be equally withdrawn. He actually hinted that they were able to capture the time machine and send Kyle back (which is why he was so secretive with Derek), which is essential to the war.
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