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Post by allergygal on Dec 18, 2008 0:45:17 GMT -5
1) Voiceovers! Yes! NEVER TAKE THESE AWAY AGAIN. I demand it! Now, writers, shoo and do my bidding. The VOs change the entire tone of the show, don't they? I so miss having them regularly, even if their relevance was occasionally a bit of a stretch in season 1. I'll stand with those that think it means something more. Mainly because it doesn't make sense to me that this one thing from the blood wall would take over Sarah's dreams. Why did she remain focused on the 3 dots themselves even after Dr Sherman's analysis that it was about her relationship with Cameron and John? Heh. Then again, the series begins with Sarah uprooting them because of a dream that John was in danger. And remembering that may have just convinced me that there is no more to it. Maybe Sarah's simply got a sixth sense about these things. But does he really deserve an 8-year-old's room? Come on, have a heart. Perhaps this will jog your memory: Seriously. Cameron is awesome at that kind of creepiness. Yeah she so is a coffee person. Did you immediately think of silverangelaunt's Telenovella like I did? I loved the scene where they checked out the hotel room. Riley was especially good to watch. Still having the tags on their clothing was a nice touch. I still can't forgive Ellison for backstabbing Sarah by stealing Cromartie's body (and I'm sure that's one of the reasons I hate him now). His motives are 100% selfish. But setting that aside, it makes absolutely no sense that he hasn't confronted Catherine about flat out lying when she said they'd take the machine apart piece by piece together. I'm thinking that when Ellison told Sarah "I lost a lot when you died the first time," he was referring to his brain. Augh. This is the part of the episode that has kept me thinking the longest. I'm still pondering. It's more than just a reminder of her past, I think it's another representation of the on-going life or death theme with Sarah. I need to make a post about that. Do we know if Riley knows Cameron's a machine? She acts a little nervous around her, so I assume she knows, but I don't recall a scene that confirms that. Hmm. You know, I didn't even think about why the cycle shooter was there (aside from trying to kill Abraham). I assumed he followed them. But, the whole idea of the big assassination plan being to shoot as he sped by was completely baked. How about walking into the storage facility and spraying the place? Or standing right outside the door to blast them when they came out? A moving shooter has a much greater chance of missing the target. But... TV dramatics... I can forgive. Yeah, the parallels between them were very cool. I almost wish Sarah had confided her own truth to him since he died anyway and it wouldn't have mattered. Something tells me Abraham would have believed every word of her story and it probably would have been therapeutic for Sarah. But really, Sarah shoving him and putting a gun to his chest in response to "I'm a man who lives as a woman and you're a woman who..." was truer to character. Well, when you compare the final section of what was recorded earlier to what plays when Sarah's gearing up at the warehouse, the "I'm a waitress" comes after the point when Abraham is shot. That's why I think it's meant to be Sarah's thoughts. Yeah and she really didn't want to pull that trigger either. But as soon as she does, she looks right into his eyes as he dies. Freaky. Even though the circumstances were clear and it was fully justifiable, I'm a little disappointed that she killed someone. Anyone in her situation would have done exactly the same (if they could). I just don't like that after all this emphasis on Sarah not killing, they stick her in a situation where she has to. Feels kind of dirty to me. Also, we just went through this with John. Let's hope Sarah continues to be hard and not feel any emotional repercussions from it. Also *karma* for prompting me to get some of these thoughts out. Due to a mistakenly dropped letter, it looks like I accidentally went punk rock by calling the good folks at Television Without Pity posers instead of posters as I meant to. Oops. L O L I was wondering about that posers comment. And speaking of punk rock, I used to go to a club actually called "Posers" back in the day. Good times. Sort of. heh.
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Alexis
Private
Winter 09 Episode Wallpaper Challenge Winner
Posts: 227
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Post by Alexis on Dec 18, 2008 2:05:45 GMT -5
Great post, looking at the possibilities from more than one angle! Thank you!! Someone that grew up in a post apocalyptic world, living in rubble, eating trash would have to be a pretty tough survivor. I find it hard to believe Riley would suddenly off herself. If she was that fragile why didn't she give up when she had to live like an animal? Apparently she’s the same age as John, so she was born after JD, which implies that she’d never seen the world before it happens. Riley used to do those things you mention, just because it was her reality, she didn’t know anything different than that. But, by time-traveling, as we can see clearly on this episode, she discovers the world before the JD and she just can’t take it. I mean, since she actually knows this world is going to blow up again, the only idea of that, in addition to being under the terrible pressure of failing her mission, is more than enough for a scared girl to try to kill herself. Riley could always hop a bus and move away. It's unlikely that Jesse would waste valuable time hunting her down. That’s true. Nevertheless, there’s no-where to hide from the Judgment Day I found the future social hierarchy very interesting. The resistance fighters are on top. Civilians are sort of like stray dogs living off scraps. Riley couldn't even look at a resistance fighter. Yeah! You’re right. I found that kind of “social hierarchy” very interesting too. Jesse thought that it was a good idea to train one of those civilians like a pet, taking into account that the lack of military training would make Riley look like a normal girl, but what she didn’t take into account is that not being a trained soldier and having such a lot of pressure, like carrying the weight of the future world on her shoulders, would make this particular teenage girl collapse. OK. I really liked this episode. I felt bad for Riley even before she cut herself. Now, I really feel bad for her. But, did she try to kill herself because she's cracking, or because it's part of her plan to get closer to John? I don’t believe that it’s part of a plan to get closer to John, just because the quarrel with her step mother was real, and there we had a clear clue that she was losing her balance. Anyway, I didn’t expect that she tried to kill herself on this episode, but her reasons are perfectly understandable. Too much pressure. She just couldn’t take it anymore. Yes, I also felt sorry about her (for about one second and a half, then I stopped the video and rewound it to watch her bleeding and (presumably) dying again and again ). The bottom line is that "The Turk" is the most important target for them to concentrate on, and they haven't done so for the entire season. But other AI programs might also be a threat, and they haven't really bothered to do anything about that either, except for Sarah's obsessions about the three dots, which have now branched off into another area entirely. They have no clue about The Turk since Season 1 ended. The only source of new clues they have to trace Skynet threads is the wall. I think that investigating those vague clues written in blood by some-one that actually came from the terrible future they try to stop from happening is FAR better than having the hole universe to start with. This also relates to their inability to understand that exposing the Skynet conspiracy is THE number one way to prevent Skynet ever existing. Rather than keeping the whole thing a secret on the presumption that some new "Cyberdyne" equivalent will build Skynet anyway, they should be exposing the threat, so that AI researchers world wide would be aware of the threat and take more precautions against developing a rogue AI. And especially the US military would then be under pressure in terms of their programs, since keeping a rogue AI away from access to nuclear or CBR weapons is clearly the best way to prevent Judgment Day. Ok, if we were talking about all this happening in the REAL world that would certainly be one of the most effective strategies to try to prevent Judgment Day from happening. Congratulations! You’ve just saved the mankind. But, as we’re talking about FICTION, we NEED our characters to make a lot of mistakes and missteps all the time for the conflicts (which are the core of any possible plot) to go on. If the characters weren’t making mistakes and they found a definitive way to stop Skynet for ever, our beloved tv show would be over (and the upcoming Terminator movies would be just pointless). Let’s not underestimate the writers work, please. I think they are working hard and it’s not easy creating new situations and conflicts while respecting the plot of two major cult movies with so many dedicated fans around the world. Must be a hard work, don’t you think? The facility itself probably isn't military - they wouldn't be sending out assassins, they'd simply arrest her and "disappear" her to a military prison. So it might be another Cyberdyne-like outfit operating illegally, probably some sort of front for a Skynet-directed operation, like Zeira Corp. For all we know, Zeira Corp might be involved. That’s a very good point. I like this hypothesis. Zeira Corp might definitely be involved with this. But the question is: Why Catherine Weaver didn’t make the dirty work this time? (Especially having Sarah Connor involved). It’ll sound crazy, but I still have my doubts about what Catherine Weaver’s real agenda is. Maybe this character has some surprises for us. So Cameron's interest in stalking Riley is explained - she detected Riley was lying. And I doubt Cameron wants a tattoo - that was just talk to get her to get hold of Riley. And her look when they discovered Riley's suicide attempt was really interesting - she was almost smiling, as if she'd been immediately proved right that something was wrong with Riley. Naturally, it will be even more interesting to her since she's been so interested in the suicide topic for weeks now. Totally agree!! I hope the writers will make much more stress on exploring this fascinating side of Cameron’s character The stage is set for both John and Cameron to find out the truth about Riley. No matter what story Riley tells them in the next episode, Cameron isn't going to buy it. Hopefully John won't either. That sets the stage for Jesse to be discovered one way or the other. Again, I totally agree with you this time, richardstevenhack. Your comment was extensive, but really interesting and helped me as a general guide to think about many interesting things you said, with some of them I partially disagree, as you can see, but mostly with all the rest I couldn’t agree more. Great post! On the other hand, it could be the resistance taking a radical pro-active stance. Send back some technicians, establish a secretive basement operation facility, get today's best minds and engineers to develop the future metal alloy, and begin constructing Aerial HK craft of their own to the best of the technology available today. Most notably hard would be manufacturing the metal alloy, as well as coming up with a light-weight but powerful energy source to run it. The future resistance are scrap-fighters. So why not build and stockpile equipment in preparation for JD? Give humanity a fighting chance. That’s an interesting hypothesis. But, how would you explain the motorbike killer? I think if they were actually resistance fighters, they definitely wouldn’t be trying to kill Sarah Connor (Unless they were from the fraction of the resistant fighters that thinks that John Connor is not a good leader, and put the blame not only on Cameron, but also on Sarah, which I find highly unlikely... but, you know, everything's possible! ). So, what if the Kyle we see in the previews is from a completely different time-line too? Think of the ramifications if this were to be true. I would say that everything’s possible so far. Kyle might be another product of Sarah’s hallucinations or, perfectly, he could actually be there and become a regular character. Wow! That would be interesting to see I share your thoughts about that. It’s not as crazy as it seems that Kyle appears in this timeline when he’s supposed to be dead. The Kyle we knew on T1 wouldn’t be the Kyle we might have on “The Good Wound”. Sounds weird, but it has to be with the basic rules of time traveling. I’ll try to explain my point of view tomorrow when I have more time Oh here's something I keep forgetting to mention. John Henry told Ellison that he taught himself how to play chess. Really, John Henry? "I built The Turk, but Dmitri taught it how to play chess." - Andy to Sarah in Queen's Gambit That’s right. But in that moment The Turk didn’t have an interface neither the necessary skills to become aware of the person that were teaching “him” how to play chess. So, I guess that’s why he thinks he “taught himself” What I love so much about TSCC is that it's mostly a character driven show. Plot and character development are completely intertwined. Sometimes that moves the story a bit slower, but I think it's a much richer story. I don't like things to drag, though, and I do think there have been some pacing problems this season because of new characters. The concentration thinned. But I don't think anything is forgotten or left hanging forever (except the high school stuff from last season, which they said they were dropping - and really, who cares?). I have no doubt we'll get further reveals about Cameron, Derek in the creepy basement and the like. Oh and I don't think Sarah's hallucinating anything (except other Sarahs). She's crazy in the sense that you can't live through what she's lived through or do what she does and be completely sane. But she's not crazy crazy. Oh yeah. I worry about getting left hanging on a cliff at season's end too. But I think the Friday time slot is actually going to be good for the show. People keep saying it's the kiss of death, but you stick it on a night with little competition along with Doll House and you've got a sci-fi block that will draw viewers. Monday night is extremely tough and while the ratings weren't good, they remained largely consistent. That means there's a core audience and by giving the show a different slot the audience has a better chance at growth. I share your opinion. I don’t think anything’s going to be forgotten or left hanging forever. We’ll have at least nine episodes where a whole lot of things can happen, including (and hopefully) much more about Cameron exploring human behavior, Sarah’s hallucinations and their meaning, Jesse’s plans and Derek’s reactions, John Henry learning from Ellison and Catherine Weaver, plus the new threats and allies we’ll discover in two months. The possibilities are just so exciting!! In this episode, Jesse says "You are here to keep John Connor away from her," to Riley. Her not it. That sentence seemed intentionally vague. She obviously could have been referring to Cameron, but in angry moment, I feel like Jesse would have said "it". We also know Jesse can't be trusted and she told Derek it was all about Cameron. If that's true, why not tell him about Riley too? Why not convince him this is the right thing to do and let him in on the whole plan? Derek said he needed to think about it, but he doesn't trust metal and probably wouldn't need all that much convincing to get on board with the plan. Of course, of all the surveillance photos we saw in Jesse's possession, Sarah wasn't in a single one. So I could be way off base here. But I'm sure something's up with Jesse and Riley that's bigger than keeping John and Cameron apart. That’s an interesting point of view. I haven’t thought about that possibility since I assumed that Cameron was the problem for the resistance fighters that thinks that John’s not doing well (Like Timms on D&D, who tells Derek: “Maybe Connor’s wrong, maybe he’s CRAZY”). But everything’s possible, and Sarah being considered a threat for some people of the resistance is a fairly interesting possibility to explore 25) I don’t think teaching the nascent form of Skynet a religious set of values is a good idea. I’m all for teaching it rules, but… man, this could go very wrong. It makes me think back to Allison from Palmdale and the aircraft carrier. And how it had animals and humans (separated by ethnicity) in storage within. John Henry’s Ark? Oh yeah! I think so. I made a post about it with my personal hypothesis (I think you can find it on page 5 or 6) Ok, a lot of things to think of and keep entertained while trying to deal with the idea of not having TSCC for almost 2 months… Fortunately we have this forum!! Greetings and thank you for reading! ;D
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Post by littleb on Dec 18, 2008 2:36:48 GMT -5
Due to a mistakenly dropped letter, it looks like I accidentally went punk rock by calling the good folks at Television Without Pity posers instead of posters as I meant to. Oops. <LOL> I had a sneaky feeling that was the case. But it was funny.
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terrasj
Sergeant
Rossbond Connor Crew
Posts: 445
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Post by terrasj on Dec 18, 2008 5:55:52 GMT -5
Well, I’m late to get these up. This recent episode of Terminator was cerebral to say the least. I really took some time to digest and think about what’s going on. Also, with the holidays coming up, I’ve had a lot to take care of. But here are my thoughts on episode 2x13 Earthlings Welcome Here. 1) Voiceovers! Yes! NEVER TAKE THESE AWAY AGAIN. I demand it! Now, writers, shoo and do my bidding. Agreed! It really help set the tone for this episode. Especially the bit about her almost feeling that Skynet's already around in their time. Very foreboding. makes sense. Or even regular grade Terminator Hyper Alloy, since that likely came before the coltan grade. I thought the idea was that Coltan was newer to make the T888's more damage resistant over the T800's. WOuld make sense if the Resistance begun obtaining more plasma based weaponry. Looks like John decided to take his own initiative again. Should be interesting how its received. A rare moment of wisdom there? We all have our moments sometime. Its her mission for one, to be around John, to protect his safety. And Sarah didn't bother taking Cameron along. John tries to send Cameron off again for another load of paint. The first time might've been valid, but the second time was just an excuse for some alone time with Riley. Considering she doesn't view John as an actual friend, I don't blame her for purposely hanging around like a nuisance. In 2x11, John only called Cameron 'the worlds most advanced killing machine.' I think this was Cameron's little snarky payback for that remark. She sure has a knack for it. I think in those examples she's internalizing a blend of Alison and her Infiltrator modes into her expression, emotion and attitude. It really did come off girly cheerful. Well, the orphanage placement wasn't that far out either, as she was an orphan - as the term goes "Street Urchin". Also, it validates Riley's explanation for stealing / pickpocketing that lighter in 2xd11. "I Like shiny things." She's probably a natural at it, born purely by necesity of survival. Also explains her scared as a mouse when approached by Jesse. In contrast to a Camomile tea drinker. Yep, that was a great scene indeed. It was natural, considering we saw her prior to that poor as a church mouse, covered in grime. Makes sense. He's supposed to be a man that goes by the Lord's book. Its through his voluntary action that Cromartie's body is still functional, that Ellison prevented the Connors from properly disposing of Cromarties remains permanently. Theres also something to be said about placing too advanced technology in the hands that don't fully understand it - this case i'm refering to is Cromartie's body and remaining 2 secondary advanced cpu's hooked up to John Henry. John Henry can't even grasp the power it's weilding - what Cromartie's body is fully capable of. This goes right to your next point #13. No, not bizzare. Shortsighted and foolish? YES! Now ok, John Henry's mainframe is hooked up via cable into Cromartie's vacant cpu chip socket. Basically like a USB/Ethernet cable. While there's data connection flowing, John Henry's AI is operating remotely on the 2 T888 cpu's, gaining the body's peripheral sensories - limbs, skin sensation, voice, optical sensors, etc. On the Mainframe side, Weaver probably added dual expansion port slot or plate - one port being the data cable link, the other a IR remote receiver to act like a shut-off valve/tap control. In the event of John Henry getting out of control with the body, a simple thumb flick on the remote shunts the datacable connection. Like an on/off switch on an appliance - tv, dvd, etc. The problem is - three-fold: 1.) (picking up from my reply in point #12), John Henry is like an infant in an adult's body. Cromartie's T888 body is incredibly powerful as a machine and weapon. It has capabilities that John Henry does not understand, or at the very least unaware of. John Henry didn't have any safety protocols that would've prevented Dr.Sherman's death. It was more regarded by John Henry as "I didn't know. Oops.". Now, the secondary and tertiary / redundant T888 CPU's are controling all the T888's autonomus functions - limb movement, etc, so John Henry only needs to want/wish to raise an arm. The body's CPU's do the rest. 2.)Now that we know this much, here's the other problem: John Henry's constantly learning. Some of his learning undoubtedly enhanced and aided by the advanced T888's body and CPU's. Processing data at T888 level. Since John Henry's learning every second, he'll eventually stumble on some of the advanced T888 functions, as well as can accidentally kill the person sitting across the table with a few mere arm and hand actions. John Henry wouldn't have any remorse or safegaurds preventing killing someone swiftly before the victim could even finger the remote's button. The Body's only tethered by a loose leash. Pretty easy to move like lighting - reach forward and snap someone's neck. 3. Back to the IR remote and receiver... Weaver and whomever keeps flicking that remote button on and off - John Henry's going to grow wise, and find a way to override the remote shunt. This doesn't bode well for Ellison or any human sitting across the table, as thats a very weak failsafe device. Should Ellison ask or say something John Henry doesn't like, and has a fit of rage or temper tantrum, Ellison could still be killed by Cromartie's hands Yup. As I said earlier about the no-fate table carving, history is repeating itself. Sarah then was headstrong and had her mind made up to go on a hell-bent solo mission to dole out some justice when she had carved into the picknic table. This is exactly what Sarah was doing in this episode, what became exactly a hell-bent solo mission she took upon herself to raid that barn. Her vision at the diner was a forewarning, one she chose to ignore and repeat a bad mistake. And this time she's in trouble. Who knows. Maybe he figured Sarah would (pun intended) connect the dots sooner or later. Maybe it was a given hint to Sarah when he went to the ladie's room. At least with the ruse over, he'd be able to finally tell Sarah more about the metal alloys. Pretty much it. Well, she'd kinda have to, to get into character of a fellow schoolgirl role, to make it seem more beleivable. I suspect she was maybe several months to a year brought into the present, to be able to transform from that shy / scared mousey grimmy girl in the sewers to a bold lively personality. Self emotional transition there, and the gained confidence that came with it over time. It'd totally break my suspension of beleif that such a ingrained mousy/ scared 'flight or flee' survival personality would totally vanish in a few days or a month's time. Cameron was clever in asking to see the star tatoo, and touching Riley's wrist to get her vitals for a few minutes there. The Tiger or wolf tatoo was a darned good tip-off and shellshocker for Riley. I think Cameron's slightly-off personality finally struck home as to what Cameron really is. Riley seemed oblivious to Cameron being a Terminator up until then. Likely Jesse conveniantly totally omitted telling that fact to Riley. The girl's scared of those things in the future, and it'd really screw with her performance while getting close to John. Not really. Its more like getting one of the subplot secrets finally revealed. We knew they broke up, and because something had become between them. and the question was what? It also showed that either Ellison's a regular church-goer, or has not been attending for quite some time, possibly since the Cromartie FBI massacre. A nice touch there. And got away to live again and finally take out Allen/Abraham Yeah, both share a similar experiance. But yet, their resulting differences are very contrasting. A laid back crossdresser, vs a woman on a mission... I found that line amusing on a way different level. Its a bit of a veiled gender joke there - the man in womans clothing acting feminim, and a woman acting like a testosterone fueled man with an agenda. By the same token, both been through life & death situations which was the cause of this interesting reversal in gender behavoir. Theres also the alternative tongue-in-cheek male anatomy reference implying what's given Sarah a 'stiffy / woody'? regarding her singleminded persuit of 3 dots and need to know about the hyper alloy metal. Sometimes its common for that to be said of a guy who's headstrong mindset & stubborn going about something. I wouldn't say Cameron's a walking lie. Maybe a figure of speach perhaps. Your probably spot on with the keen observation there. I hadn't the luxury to have a copy onhand to re-watch yet. I think she probably snapped right then and there, major panic mode, and slitted her wrists. Major turmoil and conundrum for Riley there, like a dead end street. She was forced to play up to John, ending up actually falling for him. His 'implied' sister's a honest to God Terminator, Jesse's given her the cold shoulder, she's got nowheres to run or turn to, no place to live anymore either. At least if she goes out in the Connor's bathroom, she'll know that John knows what happened to her, and won't be lost wondering why she suddenly disappeared and starts combing the city looking for her. Least theres a bit of closure there, Riley caring about that aspect. Or maybe she didn't care where she bites the bullet. She snapped and irrationaly decided to go right then and there on the spot. Its too bad that Ellison's more a man of the "Book" than into Science Fiction as a hobby or interest. If he were more into Science Fiction, he'd know of Isaac Asimov's "3 Laws of Robotics" : 1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm. 2. A robot must obey orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law. 3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law. Furthermore, if I were Ellison, I'd be making it first and top priority to teach and ingraine Asimov's 3 Laws of Robotics into John Henry, before starting on human values and the 10 commandments. To a machine / A.I like John Henry, human values could easily be re-interpreted as an argument for machines. God made humans, but who made machine? Man did. But look what man can do, and has done in Earth's past? Therefore, machine will come to think it *is* or will *become* God. Thats precisely what Skynet enacts, starting Judgement Day. It as a *God-like* entity doesn't see fit to let human survivors remain, and is hunting them down to extinction. I thought that was Abraham saying that to the councilor there, when asked "what are you?" Cruel touch of fate there wasn't it. One more consquence of foolishly going out headstrong on her mission there. The 3 engines and especially the tail - the tail is the biggest design giveaway. And the way it hovered - seemed like a behavior trait of the post JD HK's Some great observations, so it paid off really well to put the effort into it That’s an interesting hypothesis. But, how would you explain the motorbike killer? I think if they were actually resistance fighters, they definitely wouldn’t be trying to kill Sarah Connor (Unless they were from the fraction of the resistant fighters that thinks that John Connor is not a good leader, and put the blame not only on Cameron, but also on Sarah, which I find highly unlikely... but, you know, everything's possible! ). Oh yeah! I think so. I made a post about it with my personal hypothesis (I think you can find it on page 5 or 6) Ok, a lot of things to think of and keep entertained while trying to deal with the idea of not having TSCC for almost 2 months… Fortunately we have this forum!! Greetings and thank you for reading! ;D Depends if they know what Sarah Connor looks like. Not many people get to see John Connor in person. We know so little about the future, or the circumstances that even brought Jesse back to be on her single minded mission. The harder and more desperate the situation gets in the future, the more humanity gets pushed to the extremes. Could be fiercely protecting their investment, or even a raid and take-over of a Skynet initiated project. At best it was a crazy guess. One thing is true though- Sarah's opening voiceover said that its like she can feel Skynet's already there in present day. So whatever the current state of the future is, some drastic actions had been decided. I could see Skynet's position taking a turn for the worse, the Resistance gaining ground, so Skynet decides to pre-empt JD date, or accelerates HK production in the past while resources are still plentiful and Skynet would be largely unchallenged. Unless a Resistance group uncovered that, sent back and raided the facility. Bringing in engineers to reverse engineer the technology for their benefit. Seems like they were there to study and reverse engineer the technology that went into the metal. Any existing built Pre-HK's be reprogrammed to be on their side as early initiative. One or some of the scientists go rogue / missing. Have to track them down, kill on site to prevent any Terminators getting to them first, or risk exposing the site to unwanted parties. Having Aerial HK's on the Resistance's side would give them a head start over Skynet who in its early stages would be unprepared for that type of an assault as it'd be just developing early Terminator designs.
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cyadon
Major
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Posts: 612
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Post by cyadon on Dec 18, 2008 8:42:47 GMT -5
The VOs change the entire tone of the show, don't they? I so miss having them regularly, even if their relevance was occasionally a bit of a stretch in season 1. Yes. I really think there needs to be more, not less of them. I really think they've swung too far away from them and it really is what made such a massive tonal shift from S1 to S2. Maybe it does mean more, but I don't feel it was executed in such a way that it really can be lended any significance. If they meant it to be more important, I feel they could have made it feel like a more personal insight from someone other than this woman she's known for about a half a second. I could, but then my petty vengeance wouldn't be wrecked upon John for some of his churlishness this season. "Where were you when I was killing Sarkissian?" still grates at me as one of the most selfish, bratty lines in TV history. Hee Hee Hee. Seriously. Summer and Lena are the main part of what keeps me glued to the screen. They're awesome and so are their characters. Immediately. I didn't say anything about it since most folks on SCS and LJ wouldn't get the reference. Poor Riley. Too bad she's a pawn in a game of EBIL the likes of which only k8ie could ascribe to. Yeah. Ellison still is in my personal doghouse. That was such a stupid move and while he seemed to indicate alarm about how he wasn't sleeping since learning about what Weaver had done, he also hadn't firebombed Zeira Corp or at least warned the Connors in any way. I really feel that they've made him run with the idiot ball a bit too long. There's no real confirmation, but I think it's not a stretch to assume she might suspect. She seemed far more nervous lying to Cameron than to John. The whole motorcycle driveby hitman idea is lame, really. Way to make sure you WON'T kill your target. Geez. You can even stay on the bike as you do it, just STAND STILL. It's silly, but meant to make it an action sequence. It was truer this way, all the way around. She wouldn't confide in Abraham. Because every time she does, she's gotten burned. Either that person doesn't believe her or dies because of her. I think, to Sarah Connor, it's safer for everyone if she keeps her secrets to herself. Maybe, but I don't think we'll ever truly find out (audio commentary by the producers aside). Oh God, please let there not be an emo or PTSD Sarah after this! If she starts acting like John from the first part of this season, I'll pull my hair out. But now we've seen each one of the Connor clan end someone's life over the course of the series. Derek killed Andy Goode and Fake Sarkissian. John killed Sarkissian. Sarah killed Winston. Cameron has killed several people. I wonder what that means? Or if it was even intentional. They're all killers now. Glad it was useful then.
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t101
Major
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Post by t101 on Dec 18, 2008 10:12:01 GMT -5
There's no real confirmation, but I think it's not a stretch to assume she might suspect. She seemed far more nervous lying to Cameron than to John. I think she was told that much. And she comes from the future. She should know that the creepy sister who can tell exactly how many feet they need to paint at a glance is not human. Yeah seriously. That entire tirade from John was just wrong on so many levels. Funny thing is, even while everyone was expecting the whole "boy becomes a man" thing to materialize, I completely called that John is going to be unlikable. Starting from the first time they showed a promo where he said, "I don't have to prove anything to anyone." It's the logical conclusion. You keep pointing loaded guns at people this is where it leads. I think it's actually pretty important that there are no more illusion about that. It's the point of no return. Maybe what this means for out crew is a new found focus, they've all passed a certain barrier, now maybe they can stop dragging themselves around and struggling so much and just get on with it. Just please no emo Sarah.
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cyadon
Major
A Random Sci-Fi Geek
Posts: 612
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Post by cyadon on Dec 18, 2008 10:49:27 GMT -5
It's the logical conclusion. You keep pointing loaded guns at people this is where it leads. I think it's actually pretty important that there are no more illusion about that. It's the point of no return. Maybe what this means for out crew is a new found focus, they've all passed a certain barrier, now maybe they can stop dragging themselves around and struggling so much and just get on with it. Just please no emo Sarah. True enough. And let no one forget the only reason Sarah was not a killer until this point was because she missed Miles Dyson initially and only winged him in the hallway. It took her third chance (and a pleading family) for her conscience to reign her in. Her intention was cold blooded murder there, and only happenstance prevented it.
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Post by Black Canary on Dec 18, 2008 11:46:35 GMT -5
*waves* Hi! Former lurker now trying to be active. (Since she no longer has new eps to keep her company)
Sooo... I just saw the ep, and I have to ask... is it bad that I now suddenly find Riley's character WAY more interesting and appealing now that she just tried to kill herself? I feel bad saying it but really, it's like it took her from being this annoyingly normal and chipper girl who was getting in the way of the Jameron shippers, to suddenly being a dark aspect of a plot line that is now far more complicated than I first assumed. Oy. I'm even tempted to make a fan vid on her now. Never saw that coming.
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cyadon
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A Random Sci-Fi Geek
Posts: 612
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Post by cyadon on Dec 18, 2008 11:51:53 GMT -5
*waves* Hi! Former lurker now trying to be active. (Since she no longer has new eps to keep her company) Sooo... I just saw the ep, and I have to ask... is it bad that I now suddenly find Riley's character WAY more interesting and appealing now that she just tried to kill herself? I feel bad saying it but really, it's like it took her from being this annoyingly normal and chipper girl who was getting in the way of the Jameron shippers, to suddenly being a dark aspect of a plot line that is now far more complicated than I first assumed. Oy. I'm even tempted to make a fan vid on her now. Never saw that coming. First off: Good to see a new face! Glad to have you with us and hope to see more of you. I hope you feel right at hope. Juice is in the fridge, Peachy Keen smoothies at the smoothy bar, and all the ebil you'll need is over by k8ie. The show totally made Riley into The Woobie that episode. That's not a bad thing, and it's very obvious that they want to elicit some sympathy for the lass before she slashes her wrists. I even read a few Jameron shipper posts starting to lighten up on her after that. As I've said before, I'm very glad they did more with the character. They've done a good job making her something other than what everyone expected and did an excellent job keeping the earlier reveal under wraps so it was more dramatic.
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Post by thecolours on Dec 18, 2008 13:13:33 GMT -5
When I heard the idea that the 'her' Jesse is referring to might be Sarah, I quickly dismissed it as nonsense. But, as I watched Earthlings Welcome Here for the second time last night, the hamster wheel in my brain started spinning, slowly. I'm going to play devil's advocate, and argue on the side of the her being Sarah.
It's Riley's job to separate John from either Cameron or Sarah, because their influence over him affects his decision making in the future. If it's supposed to be Cameron, Riley didn't make much of an effort to get John to leave the house, and separate the two. In fact, she stayed, willingly. If she was trying to separate these two, she probably say something like, "this is lame city, let's go to the mall." Instead, she helped him redecorate his room, and inquired intel about Sarah's location. Anytime Riley has ever asked John about Sarah, it's always a serious question. With Cameron, it's usually something light hearted.
Riley being nice to Sarah's face is part of her mission to separate the two. If she were to be mean, John and Sarah would put an end to it right there. But, by acting nice, she diffuses the situation as not appearing to be a trouble maker, and gain John's trust in the process. She's scared sh*tless anytime Cameron confronts her, because she's the one true obstacle in the mission.
Update: I just had a revelation. What if Jesse's mission is two fold?
1) Use Riley to separate John from Sarah 2) use Derek to eliminate Cameron.
Think how vulnerable John would be without having these two around.
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Post by thecolours on Dec 18, 2008 13:23:42 GMT -5
I'm 99% positive that it's Ed Winston who killed Barbara and Park. At the 34:38 mark (going by Hulu's player) we see the killer's lower extremities. The person is wearing black boots, with dark blue denim, boot cut jeans. Fast Forward to the 40:14 mark, and we see Winston wearing the exact same set up.
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t101
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Posts: 716
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Post by t101 on Dec 18, 2008 14:12:26 GMT -5
The idea of getting John a girlfriend to separate him from mommy is giving me really creepy images. Yes, more creepy than any "robot love" possibility. And it's the same with John Connor being some kind of momma's boy vs. being too close to Cameron.
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Post by Black Canary on Dec 18, 2008 14:54:55 GMT -5
When I heard the idea that the 'her' Jesse is referring to might be Sarah, I quickly dismissed it as nonsense. But, as I watched Earthlings Welcome Here for the second time last night, the hamster wheel in my brain started spinning, slowly. I'm going to play devil's advocate, and argue on the side of the her being Sarah. It's Riley's job to separate John from either Cameron or Sarah, because their influence over him affects his decision making in the future. If it's supposed to be Cameron, Riley didn't make much of an effort to get John to leave the house, and separate the two. In fact, she stayed, willingly. If she was trying to separate these two, she probably say something like, "this is lame city, let's go to the mall." Instead, she helped him redecorate his room, and inquired intel about Sarah's location. Anytime Riley has ever asked John about Sarah, it's always a serious question. With Cameron, it's usually something light hearted. Riley being nice to Sarah's face is part of her mission to separate the two. If she were to be mean, John and Sarah would put an end to it right there. But, by acting nice, she diffuses the situation as not appearing to be a trouble maker, and gain John's trust in the process. She's scared sh*tless anytime Cameron confronts her, because she's the one true obstacle in the mission. Ermm... I don't know. Didn't Jesse say to Derek in a previous episode that she was there to protect John from Cameron. (Unless of course she was lying, which wouldn't be that out of character for her). Also, right at the beginning of season 2, ep 2, Cameron says to John "You shouldn't have saved me. It will upset people." John assumes she means his mom but then Cameron says "Not them." Looking back, I bet that was an allussion to the whole Riley plot. The resistance doesn't like that John is sympathizing with the robots so they send back Jesse and Riley to intervene.
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Alexis
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Posts: 227
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Post by Alexis on Dec 18, 2008 18:02:52 GMT -5
"The truth is inside of you..."That sounds much like "The truth is out there", don't you think? Was it a "blink" to the X-Files fans? Besides the UFO topic, did anybody notice that the song when Sarah was driving while listening the record was REALLY similar to the ones on The X-Files? I think this is a very smart move on behalf of TSCC's creative crew. They really created such a subliminal message (behind the explicit stuff like UFO/Drones, hypnosis, etc., of course) for the old fans of The X-Files to feel a little bit of nostagia and maybe getting them interested on friday nights again... That might be fairly clever of them, huh? By the way, until "The Good Wound" comes out, I'll keep wondering whether "the truth is out there" or if "the truth is inside" Sarah's mind... Maybe a mix of both... Furthermore, if I were Ellison, I'd be making it first and top priority to teach and ingraine Asimov's 3 Laws of Robotics into John Henry, before starting on human values and the 10 commandments. To a machine / A.I like John Henry, human values could easily be re-interpreted as an argument for machines. God made humans, but who made machine? Man did. But look what man can do, and has done in Earth's past? Therefore, machine will come to think it *is* or will *become* God. Thats precisely what Skynet enacts, starting Judgement Day. It as a *God-like* entity doesn't see fit to let human survivors remain, and is hunting them down to extinction. Your hypothesis is similar to mine (which I posted on page 5). I would only change the last part of yours, about “hunting them down to extinction”. Given the 10 Commandments as the primary rules and assuming that John Henry ends up concluding he’s a kind of “God” who’s punishing the mankind for their sins, I wouldn’t say his mission is not to precipitate the extinction of the mankind but to “preserve” them by "protecting" them from themselves at all cost (even if it implies putting them on the edge of extinction). That would explain why Skynet did not send back a Terminator to a remote past with a super virus to spread an apocalyptic pandemic (Mission accomplished. Skynet wins. No possibility of further movies or tv shows. You know, too bad for everyone ). And also explains why we got to see such a zoo with wild animals in cages like bears and tigers on “Alison From Palmdale”. Depends if they know what Sarah Connor looks like. Not many people get to see John Connor in person. We know so little about the future, or the circumstances that even brought Jesse back to be on her single minded mission. The harder and more desperate the situation gets in the future, the more humanity gets pushed to the extremes. Could be fiercely protecting their investment, or even a raid and take-over of a Skynet initiated project. At best it was a crazy guess. One thing is true though- Sarah's opening voiceover said that its like she can feel Skynet's already there in present day. So whatever the current state of the future is, some drastic actions had been decided. I could see Skynet's position taking a turn for the worse, the Resistance gaining ground, so Skynet decides to pre-empt JD date, or accelerates HK production in the past while resources are still plentiful and Skynet would be largely unchallenged. Unless a Resistance group uncovered that, sent back and raided the facility. Bringing in engineers to reverse engineer the technology for their benefit. Seems like they were there to study and reverse engineer the technology that went into the metal. Any existing built Pre-HK's be reprogrammed to be on their side as early initiative. One or some of the scientists go rogue / missing. Have to track them down, kill on site to prevent any Terminators getting to them first, or risk exposing the site to unwanted parties. Having Aerial HK's on the Resistance's side would give them a head start over Skynet who in its early stages would be unprepared for that type of an assault as it'd be just developing early Terminator designs. You’re right. Presumably, only Kyle and Derek knew how Sarah looks like through the picture John gave to Kyle (The one John picks up from the floor when Cameron beats up Mr. Ellison ). Excellent hypothesis! The idea of the resistance taking control of those high-tech research facilities by anticipating Skynet moves is fairly interesting. It might fit perfectly the terminator re-programming tradition started by John Connor MOD NOTE: edited to combine consecutive posts.
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Post by allergygal on Dec 18, 2008 18:10:10 GMT -5
"The truth is inside of you..."That sounds much like "The truth is out there", don't you think? Was it a "blink" to the X-Files fans? Besides the UFO topic, did anybody notice that the song when Sarah was driving while listening the record was REALLY similar to the ones on The X-Files? I think this is a very smart move on behalf of TSCC's creative crew. They really created such a subliminal message (behind the explicit stuff like UFO/Drones, hypnosis, etc., of course) for the old fans of The X-Files to feel a little bit of nostagia and maybe getting them interested on friday nights again... That might be fairly clever of them, huh? By the way, until "The Good Wound" comes out, I'll keep wondering whether "the truth is out there" or if "the truth is inside" Sarah's mind... Maybe a mix of both... The X-Files feel was entirely intentional. Writer Natalie Chaidez addressed it in The Official Blog. Oh good call about the "the truth is in you" being perhaps the suggestion that the truth is inside Sarah. I was hoping the "are they nightmares or are they memories" line was a hint that Sarah already knows something about all this (and doesn't remember) and we'll find out how when the show comes back. With the parallels between Sarah and Abraham/Alan/Eileen being so strong, "the truth is in you" could be another clue towards that idea. I still haven't the slightest idea how she could know anything, but that's part of the reason why I hope she does — there would have to be some cool backstory.
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