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Post by richardstevenhack on Dec 14, 2008 4:10:08 GMT -5
Well said.
I was interested in what Summer said about "stalking" Riley. I don't know if that was hyperbole or whether it really means that Cameron is intending to find out more about Riley. What will be interesting to me is how the writers manage to "awaken" Cameron's suspicions, since up to now Cameron has pretty much treated Riley as a problem for her but otherwise a non-entity and not an actual threat to John or her except in the relationship sense. (Summer in particular is very happy to explore whether a robot can be "jealous" - but clearly there should be and undoubtedly is more to it than that.) If Cameron wants to find out more about Riley, it could be either because she has become suspicious for some reason, or perhaps she wants to find out more so she can find something she can either use to dampen John's interest or to enable her to find a way to get rid of Riley.
So I'm interested in how the writers will reveal how Cameron decides to "go after" Riley, as well as how it plays out between Cameron and John.
Apparently, according to Summer's interview, Sarah is becoming more and more isolated from the rest of the team as she pursues this obsession with the three dots and ends up in a desert with a bunch of UFO enthusiasts waiting for the aliens to land or something. It's supposedly a very "surreal" episode, probably because it ends up in the desert and probably involves Sarah freaking out in various ways.
This is precisely the sort of thing I was talking about earlier when I mentioned the whole UFO business. As I mentioned, Sarah is the LAST person who should get involved in the whole UFO mess because it causes paranoid types to lose it completely. The game playing and weird stuff that starts happening to UFO researchers - even serious ones - is just bizarre. And the politics and weirdos involved in UFO research alone is enough to drive anybody nuts even without actual weird events.
John Keel used to relate to me some of the stuff that he experienced during his research back in the '60's and '70's. It would be enough to freak anybody out. Sarah is a goner if she gets too deep into this stuff.
So that makes me wonder just how much the writers know about this stuff and who was their source about UFOlogy. Zack told us about how they researched the military academy stuff for "Goodbye to All That:". I wonder how they researched the UFO episode.
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Post by potomac79 on Dec 14, 2008 4:22:38 GMT -5
I think it's been clear that Riley has been a burr under Cameron's saddle since their first meeting, though Cameron hasn't had much to base that on other than her desire to be the center of John's attention. I think it's obvious that Cameron does have an agenda with John. What it is could be personal, mission-oriented, protective, or any combination thereof. Whatever it is, Riley interferes with that agenda. That alone would motivation enough for Cameron.
That stare-down that John and Cam had at the end of "Self Made Man", after John got busted for spending the night with Riley, looks to be the straw that broke the cyborg's back. I think it was then that Cameron decided that something had to be done about the Riley problem. She'll do her research...just not in a library this time. It might just be a cascade effect. Riley leads to Jesse--who might not be ID'd--but Jesse leads to a certain Derek Reese who has said nothing about this relationship. From there, it could get socially messy very quickly depending on what Cameron does with the information.
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Post by vicheron on Dec 14, 2008 4:30:52 GMT -5
It does depend on the type of UFO convention they go to. Some conventions are very casual and really made for "experts" to sell their stuff.
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wb5
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Post by wb5 on Dec 14, 2008 6:16:24 GMT -5
I'm not sure Summer understands the logical limits that an android like Cameron would be operating under. Summer undoubtedly has a simpler understanding of her character than I do - Summer even admitted in the radio interview that sci-fi fans know more about the show than she does! She said that mostly about the start of her acting career, in "Firefly" - not specifically about TSCC. I think Summer is well aware of what she is doing, and that she knows a lot more about Cameron than we do (she won't spell it all out in an interview though). As for the logical limits, that depends on the writers - the sky is the limit here, if they can have time travel and magical "liquid metal" Terminators on their show. And since Summer obviously talks with the writers, again I think she understands very, very well what is going on.
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Alexis
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Post by Alexis on Dec 14, 2008 15:24:02 GMT -5
Derek's reasons for not revealing Jesse's identity: 1- He's emotionally attached to her. 2- At least at the beginning, he thinks she's a deserter and he believes that she really came to the past just to run away from the war. 3- So, he might have been protecting her by not letting Sarah and (especially) Cameron know about her existence. (The curious thing about all this is that Derek actually named Jesse in front of Cameron when visited Moshe, and after that, he told Sarah -also in front of Cameron- that "Jesse" was one of the guys that were killed at the safe-house... My question is: Shouldn't Cameron have a register on her data-base of the names of the resistance fighters killed at the safe-house as she had a complete report about Derek’s identity??). Cameron’s reasoning about Riley: 1- Riley has ALWAYS been considered by Cameron as a potential security risk. 2- The real question here is: Why does she finally decide to investigate Riley? A possible answer to this question might be that Cameron realizes that she’s loosing control of the situation since she wasn’t able to convince John to split up with the blonde (even her seduction techniques seemed to be highly un-effective). 3- The events that take place on “Mr. Ferguson Is Ill Today” are a direct consequence of the ineffectiveness of her limited understanding of human behavior and emotions. She cannot anticipate to Sarah and John’s reactions (John running away with Riley to Mexico and almost getting killed there, and Sarah leading Cromartie to John by not killing the thief). So, that makes Cameron try to recover the control of the situation by looking for a valid reason to get rid of the blonde. Cameron’s reasons for exploring human behavior and emotions: 1- The reason why Cameron is exploring and trying to understand human behavior and feelings is to keep humans, and especially John, under control by cataloguing their possible emotional reactions and make them predictable (anticipating a possible attempt of suicide, for example). Not being able to keep John by her side all the time might imply that she’s failing at accomplishing her priority mission of protecting him. So she must perfect her understanding of humans to be better at manipulating John’s feelings and fulfill her mission. If she cannot do this, the logical next step is finding the way of getting rid of any human that stands between her and John. 2- The malfunctioning due to the chip damage may have to be with some other interesting derivations regarding the development of real “emotions”, but I think that her primary motivation is still keeping John’s emotional balance under control (or not, that depends on which side you are –I bet Jesse doesn’t think so ). Reasons why Sarah SHOULD investigate the UFO convention: 1- There are 3 dots on the leaflet of the Convention. Those 3 dots could be the logo of an association of UFOlogists or something like that. 2- People that investigate UFO phenomena are usually extremely paranoid people. They are always trying to prove their theories about a government conspiracy to undercover the possession of extraterrestrial technology. So, between these people, there might be some-one important, connected with the future human resistance that might actually have some extremely relevant information about military projects which may be related with Skynet origins. These are my theories about those particular issues, now I’d like to know what you all think about it. So, let’s start to discuss! Greetings! PS: Please, excuse me if I have many grammar mistakes
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Post by potomac79 on Dec 14, 2008 15:52:00 GMT -5
Derek confuses me. Not disclosing Jesse's existence. Wanting the arms bunker only for his team (all of whom are dead). Being a Lieutenant arguing with a General. Going rogue and doing more than simply waiting for John after the time travel. Enlisting Bedell instead of sticking to the hide-and-protect plan.
Still, he's taken a bullet for John, had Cameron go with him to Mexico (as if he'd stop her), helped Lauren due to Sarah's orders, had Sarah's back when setting out to save Michelle.
Jesse messes up the character. She's his fatal(?) flaw. He's desirous of her. A simple disclosure that another resistance fighter was in L.A., but he thought it best to keep her in reserve after Vick's assassination of his previous team would have been acceptable to the Connor Cadre, I think. But he lied with saying that Jesse was a guy and a member of his (presumably original) team. No way would Cameron not eventually follow-up on that. Cameron likely knows the full roll and dossier of every one of Derek's official team.
I'm seeing some rough waters ahead for Derek as his tangled web of deception falls apart.
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t101
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Post by t101 on Dec 14, 2008 17:11:40 GMT -5
I actually though it interesting that Cameron starts off rather neutral towards Riley. "You have a new friend. I'm accessing her threat level," and after John asks if he's safe she concludes, "I don't know. Girls are complicated."
It's only after Riley proves to be troublesome that she decides John shouldn't see her anymore.
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tze
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Post by tze on Dec 14, 2008 17:14:11 GMT -5
Derek confuses me. Not disclosing Jesse's existence. Wanting the arms bunker only for his team (all of whom are dead). Being a Lieutenant arguing with a General. Going rogue and doing more than simply waiting for John after the time travel. Enlisting Bedell instead of sticking to the hide-and-protect plan. Re: the whole 'not telling anyone about Jesse thing'...remember, he thought she was AWOL. I think his major concern wasn't Sarah or Cameron---it was John. When your buddy is AWOL, the one person you do NOT want knowing is your general. What present John knows, Future John knows; if John sees Jesse in the present, he'll know that she has traveled through time. At first, he'd assume his future self sent her. But Future John, upon noticing Jesse's absence (and I'd imagine he'd be keeping tabs on his uncle's main squeeze), would immediately know that a) Jesse's in the past (as opposed to, say, dead in a bunker) and b) John himself didn't send her. His plans for the past can be screwed up very, very easily, so random people simple CANNOT be allowed to saunter up to the time machine and go play checkers with the time stream. Therefore, Future John's best bet is to send a squad back to retrieve Jesse---probably with extreme prejudice, cause if she was willing to go to these extremes, she's probably not going to go back to being a good little soldier. Future Bedell implied that the price for disobeying orders is getting shot. (Which makes sense---lack of discipline in this sort of situation can lead to the extermination of the entire race, so disobeying orders is probably the most serious crime you can commit, short of defecting to Skynet.) Derek thought he was protecting Jesse from court-martial by keeping her away from John. On the whole 'weapons cache' thing---I think his problem was Cameron, a machine, taking his weapons. I don't think he would have said anything if John or Sarah had helped themselves. I'm actually very interested in Derek's place in the Resistance power structure. Bedell was highly ranked, and Derek certainly had no problem arguing with him (respectfully, of course). He was high enough up to have met John Connor, the leader of the human race, personally; his brother had Connor's ear. Plus, John knew all along that Derek was his uncle; he knew he was going to lose Kyle but not necessarily Derek, so it might be plausible that he took steps to keep Derek close. (With Derek resenting him the whole time, which must've been fun.) Since this episode is supposed to flesh out Riley's backstory, maybe we'll get more info on the structure of human society during the war; how do the civilians and the soldiers interact? Are the Reese brothers famous?
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Post by sandrinha on Dec 14, 2008 17:16:32 GMT -5
I hope John starts acting more mature once he finds out that the person that has been pushing his buttons has been lieing to him and separating him from his core family. Talk about a wake up and the boy needs it BADLY.
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Post by potomac79 on Dec 14, 2008 17:59:58 GMT -5
I just don't see Derek thinking through the AWOL/time travel thing to that degree. I felt it was more like: if you are AWOL, then you aren't the fighter I thought you were. That would later feed into his acceptance of Jesse's mission, for it shows that she's not a coward after all. He's put her on a pedestal and has yet to notice if she has feet of clay.
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t101
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Post by t101 on Dec 14, 2008 18:08:41 GMT -5
I just don't see Derek thinking through the AWOL/time travel thing to that degree. I felt it was more like: if you are AWOL, then you aren't the fighter I thought you were. That would later feed into his acceptance of Jesse's mission, for it shows that she's not a coward after all. He's put her on a pedestal and has yet to notice if she has feet of clay. It's made fairly clear that Derek is pretty close to her. His loyalties are divided and it seems he would have a measure of respect for anything Jesse chooses (within reason) even if it is AWOL. He might not like it but he wont rat on her to Sarah.
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Alexis
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Post by Alexis on Dec 14, 2008 23:49:46 GMT -5
I actually though it interesting that Cameron starts off rather neutral toward Riley. "You have a new friend. I'm accessing her threat level," and after John asks if he's safe she concludes, "I don't know. Girls are complicated."It's only after Riley proves to be troublesome that she decides John shouldn't see her anymore. Yeah, that's right. But there is an explanation for that: I think the way she seems to face the problem at the beginning is related to my previous hypothesis about the reason why Cameron is interested on understanding human behavior: to make John's reactions more predictable and keep the situation under control. In other words, Cameron, based on her recently acquired (but still insufficient) understanding of human relationships, decided that it was better to avoid an argument with John. So, that's why she chooses to say: "You have a new friend" (she wants to open the topic to analyze how he reacts to that). Clearly, our Cameron doesn't mean to be rude by telling John that Riley was a security risk and that he shouldn't see her anymore, because it might result in an argument with John and she needs to stay close to him to protect him. The following conversation (from S02-E07, "Brothers Of Nablus") is a good example of what I mean: Sarah: "If you knew what was going on with the girl, why didn't you say something?" Cam: "To you?" Sarah: "To me... To him... To somebody" Cam: "I've always kept my position on security very clear... [but] no-one likes a nug..."
So, I conclude that , even though she didn't express that before Riley gets troublesome, Cameron always considered Riley as a security risk, it's just she didn't want John to notice that suspicious (just because "no-one likes a nag" ). Another quote: John: "How often do you lie?" Cam: "When the mission requires it" John: "Do you lie to me?" Cam: "Sometimes..." John: "About important things?" Cam: "Yes... 'important things'... "This proves that she doesn't ALWAYS tell him everything, she keeps secrets... So the phrase: "girls are complicated" might have the following undercover meaning: "I don't trust her". Anyway, it's just an interpretation. Greetings! and thank you for reading my post!!
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Post by vicheron on Dec 15, 2008 0:27:34 GMT -5
The question isn't whether Cameron is suspicious of Riley, the question is what prompts her to investigate Riley.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Dec 15, 2008 1:28:34 GMT -5
Yes. it's clear that Cameron didn't like the notion of Riley or any normal human being around John, especially as a romantic interest which interferes with her own intentions. But she didn't consider Riley a security risk per se.
I guess it's reasonable to assume that since John is clearly continuing to see Riley that Cameron might decide to follow her around to see what she can use to get rid of Riley. But I would have thought that would start after the Mexico trip - since that happened IMMEDIATELY after she tried to convince John to stop seeing Riley, and also because it was a SERIOUS breach of security for John to go running off to another country and then get his butt thrown in jail on top of it, let alone the problem with Cromartie.
Instead Cameron seems to have waited another two episodes or so to get interested again in getting rid of Riley. So that implies to me that maybe Cameron has discerned some particular reason to start after her now.
OTOH, it could well be that the "out all night" thing was enough, since that, too, is a serious security breach as far as Cameron's concerned as well as the lipstick making it clear to her that Riley is ever more a direct threat to her own intentions for John.
In any event, there's little doubt that Cameron will ignore John's warning to stay away from Riley.
On another note, anybody suspect that the motorcycle shooter is Jesse?
Think about it. If Jesse thinks that Sarah has screwed up by allowing Cameron to reside with them and influence John, Jesse might well think that offing Sarah - without ever being associated with that act, of course - might be useful. That would leave Derek - and presumably eventually Jesse, at some point when she does reveal herself to John - as the main influences over John. And Jesse pretty much has Derek under her thumb. While he's not easily controllable, he seems to buy whatever she tells him - and she's clever enough to tell him exactly what she needs to to control him.
So I suspect that in this episode Jesse tries to off Sarah. And maybe Sarah back tracks the shooter and that's who she confronts with the "who are you" line at gunpoint.
It would be better for everybody - but especially Jesse and Derek - if it's Sarah who finds out about Jesse rather than Cameron or John. John would be enraged to find out the truth from anyone but Sarah, and Cameron would probably outright kill Jesse, if not Derek. The only reason Cameron hasn't killed Derek yet is because he's a relative of John's and he's useful to the team.
Whoever finds out the truth, Derek is in big trouble when Jesse is exposed - unless somehow Jesse keeps him out of it by not revealing her name to anyone.
As for him protecting her from present day John because she might have been AWOL, a) that in itself is disloyal to John, b) it's irrelevant because it's happened - whether future John knows as a result of her presence in the present is unlikely - what is more likely is future John knows because she's no longer around anywhere, and c) once she revealed her real mission to Derek, it's no longer an excuse.
And I agree that having her able to come back without future John's knowledge is a serious breach of security for future John to deal with. As I indicated earlier, I can accept Cameron being able to do it since she had access to the chamber and knew how to operate the machine. But for Jesse to be able to do it is bad news. It's bad enough that both John and Skynet are essentially flailing in the dark in the past with their missions, but to have rogue individuals from either side pursuing their own agendas, well, that's just going to screw everybody up on both sides.
If Derek were rational, he would reveal her to John and Sarah, reveal her mission to both of them - but not Cameron, of course - and then bring up the issue of Cameron and let his "general" and Sarah make the decisions about Cameron.
Instead, if he's bought into this mission, then he's stopped being loyal to John, present and future. Instead, he's decided that he knows more about circumstances than John. In fact, he said that last season when he said "John doesn't know everything" when arguing with Sarah over Cameron's presence.
And that attitude is going to cost him, because it's unlikely Sarah is going to accept his opinion over hers. And John most definitely is not because he already put his life on the line reactivating Cameron once because of his strategic decision that she was too valuable to lose. And subsequent events have proven that decision to be valid, regardless of the risk.
Which means unless Derek can convince Sarah to go along with Jesse's plot, Derek is going to be in deep trouble with Sarah at least, probably John, and hanging by a thread with Cameron.
Jesse's almost certainly going to get killed by somebody, probably Derek himself if it turns out that Jesse has an even more ulterior motive or is involved in things like trying to kill Sarah, or by Cameron if the opportunity presents itself, or even by Sarah (although I doubt Sarah since Sarah has yet to kill anybody, past or present and I think the producers intend to keep it that way.)
I do agree that Cameron is interested in learning human reactions. That would be obviously useful to any Terminator, but especially her because she needs to blend in more than any other Terminator. And she needs John to help her in that blending in and surviving in the present. As I've said before, he is as much HER protector as she is his. No one else in the present or future will accept her for what she is.
I would say there is zero reason for Sarah to be going to a UFO convention, three dots or not. There's simply no evident connection between the two situations, certainly not one justified by some graphic. It's been made pretty clear that Sarah's obsession with these dots is pretty much based on her own psychological problems and not really any real situation that the Connors have to deal with. Even if it turns out that the writers have some real situation in mind that will end up having something to do with three dots, Sarah is simply taking this ridiculously too far. Both Derek and John are highly skeptical and rightly so. If it turns out there really IS something going on involving three dots and Skynet, it will just justify Sarah's paranoia and make it worse.
This whole syndrome was covered in Robert Anton Wilson's and Robert Shea's cult classic conspiracy theory "Illuminatus" trilogy back in the '70's. There it was the number "23" and other obsessions of the characters. And the whole point was that the human mind is a pattern seeker and it will see patterns where none exist. And this is a major problem in the UFO field. So Sarah getting involved in that stuff is definitely not a good idea.
There's also the problem of just how big Skynet's involvement would be. The UFO phenomena is a huge phenomena going on worldwide and going back centuries. If Sarah starts to think all that is connected to Skynet, it will be quite overwhelming. There's no way they can do anything about that stuff. I got out of the scene decades ago precisely for that reason. Unless you have major dollars, like Joe Firmage or Robert Bigelow, two wealthy corporate UFO enthusiasts, there really is next to nothing you can do about the phenomena.
And it would all be a distraction yet again from the primary strategy: stop Skynet from ever existing.
I keep telling people, it doesn't matter WHAT Skynet is doing on the side. Stop it from ever existing and all those side plots don't matter. And the Connors have UTTERLY neglected that whole concept for the entire season! They've done absolutely NOTHING to try to stop Skynet this entire season!
Which is why I've been complaining. If these people are the saviors of mankind, it's time to bring in the first string.
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Post by vicheron on Dec 15, 2008 2:05:36 GMT -5
I keep telling people, it doesn't matter WHAT Skynet is doing on the side. Stop it from ever existing and all those side plots don't matter. And the Connors have UTTERLY neglected that whole concept for the entire season! They've done absolutely NOTHING to try to stop Skynet this entire season! Which is why I've been complaining. If these people are the saviors of mankind, it's time to bring in the first string. The Connors have always relied on information from the future. The last time they changed the future, it was because they had detailed information about how Skynet was created. This time, they're in the dark, they're dependent on the tiny morsels left for them by time travelers. They're only doing all these side missions because of the blood wall. It's not like the dead Resistance fighter circled a name and wrote, "kill this guy and you stop Skynet, all these other people are important if Judgment Day actually happens."
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