02x13 Earthlings Welcome Here

[t101]

The suicide? John looks lost. So I'm going to guess this takes place during The Turk, his first day.

[potomac79]

It's also prudent to consider that John's "sister" was also going to the same school. Given what Jesse told Derek about Cameron's influence, it's likely that Riley's job has been two-fold.

It does raise the question...why wouldn't Cameron have spotted and cataloged Riley before the meeting in "Automatic..."? You'd think, since she doesn't sleep, she'd have maintained a complete database on all of the students at the school. Even just passing in the hall, anyone Cameron didn't immediately recognize would be scrutinized. After all, she managed to be the infiltrator in NM in order to contact John.

The only explanation that makes sense is that this occurs relatively close to "Samson and Delilah", and thus Cameron didn't have time...unless Riley was consistent in not letting Cameron notice her. Given what we've seen of Riley, how likely is that? But looking at John's actions, it seems like he's checking his schedule, which implies that it's not long after he and Cameron arrived at the school.

As for how did they find John so quickly? Well, being that they were all at the Serrano Point base (or, at least Jesse and Derek), it seems likely that a general location would be known. What's interesting is that only Cameron and Cromartie seemed to have any information about the school in NM. Cameron's knowledge, based on her closeness to future-John, is understandable, but Cromartie? He was there almost as quickly as Cameron.

[aceplace57]

Charlie's police report gave Cromartie and (probably) Cameron the alias Sarah used and that led to New Mexico.

I briefly thought Jesse found out the same way, and dismissed it because she couldn't jump from 1997 to 2007.

[allergygal]

Okay, I'm actually excited about Riley be inserted into season 1. We know Jesse's been surveilling John and Cameron, so it makes sense that she was there a while before letting Derek see her. And Riley then was obviously following John around school either waiting for some event to happen before talking to him or just getting used to the school enough that she could act like someone who belonged there.

potomoac79 - Until Riley actually interacted with John, I don't see why Cameron would have picked her out of a crowd to pay attention to. Another thing to keep in mind is that Jesse and Riley are from the future where they're probably a little more savvy about how cyborgs operate. They may have known exactly what to do to keep off Cam's radar.

For anyone confused about the season 1 timeline, that one's actually clear. I don't remember the exact dates, but it's Sept- Nov 2007.

[potomac79]

You're right. I forgot that this was the beginning of a school year for the Baums (apparently), so Riley would have just blended in from their point of view. Mea culpa.

I do like the idea that Riley's awkward insertion into John's life has more to do with her lack of social skills than it does with poor planning.

While I don't like Jesse, I do like that she's a strategist. Her surveillance has been going on for a good while. This is in contrast to Derek "if it's metal, then shoot it" Reese. She has the patience of a terminator and a strong mission focus. That makes her a very scary human.

[richardstevenhack]

I'm not sure why everyone is assuming Riley was there in season one. Is it just John's hair style? I can't tell from the sneak peek when that time was, other than that John was still going to school. And we didn't see Cameron near him in that scene - she was in school only during season one. So this still could be from this season. Jesse appears to be pointing out John to Riley for the first time, whenever it was. So presumably this is a flash back.

Second, as others have asked, how the hell did Jesse find Derek and the Connors in the first place? This implies that she was there at least some point after - or even shortly before - Derek and his team came through. That opens up a can of worms. Clearly she got the time point to which Derek was sent from one of the time machine technicians. But how did she find him after that? Derek and his team would have located a safe house on their own. Unless Jesse was sent back to the exact point in time - or shortly before - and also location when Derek came through and was waiting for them and began following them at that point, I don't see how she found Derek.

One way could have been when Derek was arrested. If the Terminator and John could locate him via computer hacking, maybe Jesse did, too. Then she could have followed him when he was transferred, witnessed the Connors breaking him out and followed them from there on.

But if this goes back to season one, then I'm totally confused. I wish we knew when Derek and his team came through and how much time they were there before the Connors showed up. Obviously they were there for some months at least because they managed to accumulate a lot of intel on computer corporations and other projects like Barbara Chamberlain's ARTIE. But how long were they there? Six months? A year? More?

If Jesse came through at the same time or even before Derek, then she's been here the longest of any of them. I'd say then that if she was so good at concealing her presence from everybody, then when Derek spotted her she deliberately let him see and follow her to enlist his aid in her plot.

The "no autumn" remark by Riley does indicate that she's from the future as well. But that leads to complications. When did she come back? When did she get picked up by her foster parents and how was that all engineered by Jesse?

Another question raised is: if a time machine tech is working for the anti-metal faction of the Resistance, did he know when and where Cameron came back and what her mission was? If Cameron came back on her own initiative, then perhaps he didn't. If he did know, was this revealed to future John? If John sent her back, then that would explain why Jesse knew she was here. Or did Jesse just find out she was here when she showed up with the Connors? But that wouldn't explain why she came back in the first place - and definitely not if Riley came back with her.

So we have to assume that Jesse knew Cameron was sent back, and was told this by the time tech, because presumably she was not high enough in the Resistance hierarchy for John or Perry to tell her (and future Derek didn't know). OR we have to assume that Jesse came back with Riley WITHOUT knowing Cameron was here, possibly to insert Riley in John's life so he would never get involved with Cameron in the future. But that seems like a lame plan. How would Jesse know that Riley would even be interesting to present John? Or that the relationship would hold long enough to affect the relationship between John and Cameron in the future. As others have pointed out, it was Uncle Bob that started John as having attachments to reprogrammed Terminators anyway,and Jesse should know nothing about that.

So that makes me assume that Jesse KNEW Cameron was in present time with present John BEFORE she and Riley came back and that Riley is there simply to try to drive a wedge between John and Cameron. But that raises the question of HOW she knew that. It's highly unlikely that a time tech would know these things because security would have prevented John from telling any of them what the missions of the time travelers were.

But that leads to more questions: If Cameron is as close to John as Jesse thinks, why would future John send her back? The answer might be that this is what Cameron wanted and she persuaded future John to send her back. That would explain how future John thinks he sent her back to protect himself, while at the same time she actually came back for her own agenda.

But that still doesn't explain why future John would send back a Terminator that doesn't take orders. If episode two of season one, Cameron said she takes orders from future John, but not present John. This implies either that John explicitly gave her that order - not to obey his past self or his mother - or that she was lying about taking orders from anyone.

Independent is independent. If Cameron really went independent either in the future or the past, she no longer takes orders from anyone, future or present John. I still think it would be risky for future John to send her back if he knew that she was really independent. But again, she might have convinced him she was trustworthy. And she is - per her own agenda, however, not actually his.

Or maybe future John really knows her agenda - and agrees with it. That would really explain everything neatly - except for how Jesse knows about any of this. If Cameron came back to insure her survival, and intends to do so by protecting John and stopping Skynet, then John might well totally agree with that agenda and also want her to survive and have no problem with sending a fully independent Terminator back. It would also be understandable because he knows how lame he was in the past and knows that Cameron would be a good influence on his past self and would save him from numerous mistakes he and his mother might otherwise have made.

In fact, that was my original thought when I first learned that Cameron was independent - that John had deliberately sent back an independent Terminator because only one such could deal with the mistakes that he and his mother would make in the past. But this would also agree with Cameron's agenda as well. So there is no conflict between the two theories.

What I find irritating is this notion that the time machine is apparently not terribly secure. Everybody and his brother seems to have access to it, and can come back on their own without future John even being aware of it. That would seem to me to be wildly unlikely. I could understand Cameron doing it because she had direct access to the machine and knew how to operate it, so she wouldn't need any technician help. And John might even have approved it, as indicated above. But how did Jesse AND Riley access the machine clandestinely without John knowing about it? Is everybody on the security team around the chamber part of the anti-metal faction? Is there NO security around the time machine? If so, John has a problem.

I assumed that there are only two time machines in existence, out of a total of three. There was the first Skynet machine through which Kyle Reese came through. That was destroyed after he went through. Skynet presumably either rebuilt that one or built another around the time Derek was captured in the interrogation house - because we saw the jet engines powering it being towed. Skynet may have more than one. John presumably has one only, since it would be harder for the Resistance to scrounge the gear for more than one. Although since they have nuclear subs accessible to them, you'd think they could power more than one. Maybe there's a time machine in Australia. That would explain how Jesse had access to the technology without John being aware of it. But I hope not, since once again that would expand the use of time travel to the point where the series would collapse under its own weight.

[t101]

Dec 12, 2008 17:55:40 GMT -5 @richardstevenhack said:

I'm not sure why everyone is assuming Riley was there in season one. Is it just John's hair style?

What else would you need? It could only possibly be during season 1 because of the hair. Besides, theturk just told us.

[tze]

So the folks over at io9 have seen Earthlings Welcome Here: io9.com/5109015/weve-seen-mondays-super+weird-terminator-episode

And I just have one thing to say: apparently there's no Derek. At all. WTF? You do not make Sarah more awesome by taking away Derek's awesomeness!!

[thecolours]

Dec 12, 2008 15:43:44 GMT -5 theturk said:

Correct. The implication (made even more clear later when Riley refers to a particular incident at the school) is that Riley was actually in part of season one, watching John and waiting for the appropriate time to make her move.

I'm guessing the incident in question is the cheerleader who committed suicide.

[Alexis]

Dec 12, 2008 2:33:21 GMT -5 aceplace57 said:

Dec 12, 2008 1:46:13 GMT -5 Alexis said:

Hi everyone!

I'm new

What do you think about Ellison teaching the 10 Commandments to John Henry? Am I the only one that thinks it's a VERY bad idea?

<snip>
So, I bet that's gonna be the beginning of the end: Judgment Day approaching!!

Greetings!

Hi Alexis! Welcome to The Sarah Connor Society. ;D It's always great to see new members.

I agree trying to teach John Henry almost anything is a risk. It's almost impossible to predict how an A.I. will comprehend the value of life, murder, lying and so forth. John Henry may interpret these rules very literally. How will he react if a human lies to him? John Henry is taught, "thou shall not kill". How will he react if a human breaks that rule and tries to shut him down?

I think Humans will be responsible for making John Henry evil. Someone will try to shut him down (probably Ellison or possibly Sarah) and that will change John Henry forever. Computers evaluate things literally as True, False -- ones and zeros. Humans lie true. Human tries to kill true, Human is threat to A.I. true Must Eliminate threat to A.I. true That starts the events for J Day

Ellison begins training John Henry in this Episode. I'm looking forward to seeing how the A.I. reacts. Ellison's attitude will certainly be shaped by his prior negative experiences with Cromartie. It will be hard for Ellison to push aside his distrust of Cromartie and see John Henry as a new A.I.

Thank you very much aceplace57!

I totally agree with you. I see we have common thoughts about this particular issue. I think Ellison will end up doing "Devil's work" after all

As regards the reaction of a cyborg toward the lies, we have the example of Cameron before being re-programmed (and re-named) when she found out that Alison lies to her... So, you're totally right about pointing that out.

Furthermore, it's highly likely to happen what you said about JH's reaction in case someone tries to shut him down, because its a contradiction to the primary rule "Thou shall not kill", but also it depends on what is Ellison's answer about the question "Am I a God's child?" (And what if JH starts asking: "Am I God?", "Should I punish mankind for their sins?", etc.).

Anyway, whatever the contradiction that makes John Henry "go bad" and starts Judgment Day is, it almost certainly comes from Ellison and the teaching of the 10 commandments

That explains why Josh Friedman talks about the importance of having the "opportunity to explore various aspects of the franchise, including its religious connotations", according to an interview I read on Sci-Fi Now Magazine.

On the same issue, Friedman also says: "I think that Sarah as a very, very radicalized Mary figure and John as sort of a Jesus figure has always been in the franchise, and it's stuff that, thematically, is interesting to explore. And I've kind of become fascinated with it through the Ellison character (...) I figured it seemed like a really natural place to sort of explore some of those themes. And especially with him, regarding whether or not his faith is either confirmed or challenged by the things he's seen".

That's another little clue that might reinforce our theories about the importance of Ellison's character regarding the Judgment Day and also a clue of who's going to die before the end of this season

Greetings!! And "thank you for your time!" ;D

[t101]

Dec 12, 2008 20:14:10 GMT -5 tze said:

So the folks over at io9 have seen Earthlings Welcome Here: io9.com/5109015/weve-seen-mondays-super+weird-terminator-episode

They make no mention of Cameron. Boo.

[aceplace57]

This is an excellent radio interview with Summer.
She talks briefly about Earthlings Welcome Cameron does stalk Riley in this episode. Summer didn't mention Jesse. So we'll have to wait and see if Cameron sees Riley and Jesse together. Normally, that shouldn't matter. You'd expect a pretty teen girl to have lots of friends. Jesse would just be another face in the crowd. But, I think Riley is a loner and anyone she talks with will immediately stand out.

Summer Interview is about a quarter way into the file
kroq-data.com/wah/wah/audio/?a=999

[wb5]

Thanks for the link!

"What I want is for you the audience to wish that she were human"
Well, it is working for me!

[richardstevenhack]

It's quite possible that Cameron would immediately recognize Jesse since she was involved with Derek in the biowar immunity bit. And if Jesse is connected with the nuclear sub runs from Australia, then Cameron very likely knows about her - if not necessarily her face. Jesse presumably has never met John Connor directly or been deep enough in to his HQ as Derek was after being released from the interrogation house. But Cameron should probably know *A* Jesse and her operational specialty.

However, since it seems Jesse "picked" Riley, and that Riley is probably a "civilian", then Cameron wouldn't recognize Riley at all, in school or otherwise, unless Riley made some ridiculous goof in stalking John. Cameron would have picked up on anybody with too much interest in John, so presumably Riley kept a good distance away.

As for Summer's remark that she wants the audience to wish Cameron was human, well, that's the writers' job. Personally, what I think the writers are doing is to make it SEEM like Cameron is becoming more human - then they take it all away again to make it ambiguous. Zack has pretty much said this explicitly. Again, I find it FAR more interesting to see Cameron as a complete android who has made the conceptual leap that her own existence is more important than anything else, programmed or otherwise.

I'm not sure Summer understands the logical limits that an android like Cameron would be operating under. Summer undoubtedly has a simpler understanding of her character than I do - Summer even admitted in the radio interview that sci-fi fans know more about the show than she does! ;D - even though she's the one playing the character. What's not clear - deliberately so, according to Zack - is how the writers see the character.

Well, they should listen to THIS fan!

She also said the writers haven't told HER how Cameron ends up vis-a-vis being human (probably because THEY don't know! )

Summer did also say that Cameron's relationship with John is more complicated than any of them understand. And I think that directly hints that Cameron is not just some "devoted" Terminator programmed to protect John like Uncle Bob was or that she has some "robot love" program she's falling into. My surmise, as I've said before, is that she NEEDS John, she doesn't "love" him. But she'll do anything at all to make sure he needs her as a result.

[potomac79]

From what I gathered from the interview, as well as a few other comments Summer and Josh have made over the past year, it seems that the key for her is to bring just enough humanity into the cyborg that it teases the audience into wanting more. That's what the actor brings. As for going beyond that, I totally agree that that's the province of the creative PTB.

I'm still standing by the idea that the writers, and Summer to a degree, are simply having Cameron explore for herself what it's like to be a self-aware cyborg--all the while hiding that journey from everyone who doesn't happen to be John Connor. As to what extent her "malfunctions" have contributed to that exploration and how much she had before traveling back in time is likely a subject for our own future exploration.