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Post by allergygal on Sept 11, 2008 15:04:02 GMT -5
Hi all. I'm not much for speculating and theorizing and stuff though I find all your opinions intersting, the ones I've read anyway... but I just have to ask one thing that's entirely off your already ongoing thread here. Sorry... But does anyone feel like the 'Promise' exchange was the override? Not Cameron doing it herself but John maybe programming that knowing that his younger self would know to say that? Just thought of that and I'm not entirely sure if anyone else saw it that way? She said it before the programming override kicked in so I'm really not sure what to make of it, but I did find it eerily reminiscent of her "I swear" to Sarah about getting rid of every trace of Vick (which of course, she didn't). Although she also said "I swear" about not going after Charley and so far she hasn't. You just never know when you can trust that cyborg!
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Post by jeck on Sept 11, 2008 15:14:05 GMT -5
Personally, I didn't get that vibe. I felt it was based on earlier foreshadowing by Catherine about a computer that could cross against the light. That Cameron did just that and broke her terminate rule and overrode it. This is true and I thought that, too but it just seems such a huge leap of faith for John to do that while handing the gun to Cameron. But then again, it's also telling of how good John's instincts are. Thanks. She said it before the programming override kicked in so I'm really not sure what to make of it, but I did find it eerily reminiscent of her "I swear" to Sarah about getting rid of every trace of Vick (which of course, she didn't). Although she also said "I swear" about not going after Charley and so far she hasn't. You just never know when you can trust that cyborg! Oh I didn't even think about that. She could have overridden the Terminate programming but could still be lying. Which makes sense because you're right, she's done it before. Totally untrustworthy. Though, I still maintain that John does go by instinct a lot but still, that is scary -- for John. God, is it Monday yet? Please do not double post. Simply click the edit button and add in the post.
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Post by Derek Reese on Sept 11, 2008 15:22:28 GMT -5
She said it before the programming override kicked in so I'm really not sure what to make of it, but I did find it eerily reminiscent of her "I swear" to Sarah about getting rid of every trace of Vick (which of course, she didn't). Although she also said "I swear" about not going after Charley and so far she hasn't. You just never know when you can trust that cyborg! Oh I didn't even think about that. She could have overridden the Terminate programming but could still be lying. Which makes sense because you're right, she's done it before. Totally untrustworthy. Though, I still maintain that John does go by instinct a lot but still, that is scary -- for John. God, is it Monday yet? 3 days in accounting as of today.
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t101
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Post by t101 on Sept 11, 2008 15:32:57 GMT -5
If Cameron was lying she would have killed him. She takes long moments pondering her actions, this suggests John didn't just fix her by some command or by cleaning her chip.
Besides if he could program her with a key word in case she reverts to her original programming, then he had the ability to override her original programming in the first place to never take effect.
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Post by vicheron on Sept 11, 2008 16:56:45 GMT -5
I can't help but wonder what storyline they planned for Sarkissian. He seemed like an interesting character, that had a large criminal organization and resources. The writers strike sure messed things up. I'm surprised they didn't keep him around. Team Connor needs a variety of villains to complicate their life. At some point the military and FBI will be after them too. I definitely agree with you on that. It was strange for a mob boss to get personally involved in murders. Fake Sarkissian and the other mob muscles are there to do the dirty work so that the real Sarkissian won't be linked to the murders when the police looks into them.
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Post by allergygal on Sept 11, 2008 17:32:45 GMT -5
If Cameron was lying she would have killed him. She takes long moments pondering her actions, this suggests John didn't just fix her by some command or by cleaning her chip. Besides if he could program her with a key word in case she reverts to her original programming, then he had the ability to override her original programming in the first place to never take effect. I don't think John repaired her. All he did was clean her chip. If there was physical damage to it, that wouldn't have fixed it. But we're all assuming that she switched to "kill John" mode because of the damage. Maybe that didn't cause it at all. We know "Sometimes they go bad. No one knows why." So there's obviously some sort of issue with reprogrammed machines that has nothing to do with physical damage to their chips. And Cameron herself referred to what happened to her as having gone bad. Maybe it was really a software glitch brought about by the shutdown (hard system crash) that happened in the blast. And by removing the chip and putting it back in, she the system got reset. I'm wondering if we've even seen what the result of her chip damage is yet. She may have lost some functioning that we're not aware of.
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alexina
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Post by alexina on Sept 11, 2008 19:12:51 GMT -5
(...) Team Connor needs a variety of villains to complicate their life. At some point the military and FBI will be after them too. Don't forget the Nazi's! Sorry...bit of a Blues Brothers imagery there... lol
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alexina
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Post by alexina on Sept 11, 2008 19:19:40 GMT -5
I can't help but wonder what storyline they planned for Sarkissian. He seemed like an interesting character, that had a large criminal organization and resources. The writers strike sure messed things up. I'm surprised they didn't keep him around. Team Connor needs a variety of villains to complicate their life. At some point the military and FBI will be after them too. I definitely agree with you on that. It was strange for a mob boss to get personally involved in murders. Fake Sarkissian and the other mob muscles are there to do the dirty work so that the real Sarkissian won't be linked to the murders when the police looks into them. I think it was personal, with Sarkissian. He looked really pissed off. I don't think he cared if he was linked to their murders, he just wanted them to die horribly. And he wanted to do it.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Sept 11, 2008 21:27:38 GMT -5
It's fairly clear that John has not repaired her because in a future episode (this coming week, perhaps) he tells her that her chip is still "messed up" and says he can fix her, but she pushes him away and says angrily "Why would you fix me?" Also it's been said in interviews that the car blast affects her for several episodes.
The important thing is that she overrode the termination programming. How she reverted back to Terminator is presumably going to be left unknown, merely an effect of the explosion. They obviously aren't going to go into technical details since her technology is a "McGuffin", just something to be accepted. But the fact that she was able to override the Terminator programming is either going to be used as an effect of future John's reprogramming OR as I suspect an example of her self-initiated evolution toward being more human and having her own agenda..
In other words, not only is terminating John against the programming future John gave her not to terminate him, it it is also against her OWN mission. The fact that the reprogramming John uses has failed before on other Terminators doesn't necessarily mean that it will fail in her. Her actions are more likely to be a result of her unique programming than a mere glitch. I think Josh put that bit in about Terminator reprogramming failing merely to heighten the uncertainty as to who and what Cameron really is and what she is capable of. We won't know for some time whether her actions are a result of her "going bad" or a result of her own agenda.
Since in the interviews they keep referring to the fact that we really don't know her agenda, I'd say that's a clear signal that in fact she HAS her own agenda. Or at least, that Josh is leaving open the possibility of that. I suspect Josh has a general idea of where he could take Cameron, but as the plot progresses, he might change that so he's careful to leave his options open.
I also think Josh likes the idea of playing with the viewers concept of the relationship between John and Cameron. He telegraphed the notion of a romance right in the season one first episode - then he made John angry at her for letting Jordan die - and then he went back in "Vic's Chip" and had John stroking her hair - and then he turned her bad, and then let John save her. Clearly Josh is having fun with the viewers!
I think the critical points remain:
1) Cameron is not controllable by John. 2) Cameron definitely wants to seduce John, as shown in "Vic's Chip". 3) Cameron is willing to lie to John.
As to point one, this would explain her negative reaction to John suggesting he can "fix her"/ She's afraid he will either discover her agenda or reprogram her to not have that agenda, accidentally or otherwise. She's caught between John being her path to survival and John actually being a threat to that survival. That would be a razor edge path for her to walk.
Point one also pretty clearly shows that future John did not send her back. Unless we accept that he trusted her implicitly and totally in the future - despite "Terminators going bad and no one knows why" - I can't believe he would send an uncontrolled Terminator back. That's another reason Josh put that in the script - it makes it clearer that Cameron, uncontrolled, is a threat, and thus makes it unlikely that John sent her back deliberately out of control. And that leaves the probability that Cameron herself came back. Again, she had the access to the time chamber and the knowledge to operate it.
As an aside, I wonder what ever happened to the "engineer" who came back in 1963 and built the time machine in the bank vault. Did he just grow old and drop dead? Is he still around? Did he even exist - or was it Cameron who did all that and lied about the rest?
I don't know if Josh is really going in this direction, but I do know I'll really like this show if it turns out that there's a whole lot more going on than we're aware of now with Cameron.
Consider point two above: I mean, in "Vic's Chip" they showed a Terminator who was MARRIED! I mean, talk about telegraphing a plot point! I've been suspecting that in fact Cameron is John's WIFE in the future! That WOULD explain him sending her back as an uncontrolled Terminator. It might not go that far, but clearly that whole scene in John's bedroom was an effort to make it look like Cameron is trying to seduce John for her own reasons, and that she considers him a "target" in the same sense that Vic did Barbara.
Summer Glau has said she thinks Cameron loves John in some robotic sense because of her programming to protect John. I think it's much more complicated than that.
It was interesting that Cameron admitted to John that she lies to him "about important things". That was either an attempt to be honest with him or an even more sneaky attempt to get through his defenses.
Which leads us to the crying panic she showed in this first episode. I think it's clear that some of that was merely mimicking human emotion to reach John (and it nearly did) and some of it was "genuine" fear of termination. Which is why I believe that is her agenda - to insure her survival no matter what happens in the Skynet war. And for that, she needs John as badly as anyone needs a parent or a lover.
There was a science fiction novel some years back where the concept was that you couldn't tell whether an AI was hostile or not simply by observing its actions, if you didn't know how it was actually thinking. That applies to Cameron in spades. Any action she takes with regard to John might or might not be "hostile" in the sense of actual malicious intent, regardless of the actual outcome from John's point of view.
That's what makes this show interesting: everybody has lied to everybody at one point or another so far. Derek lied to Sarah about Andy Good, John lied to Sarah about going to see Charley, Sarah lied to John about killing Enrique, Sarah didn't want John to know about her giving him up for adoption, Cameron lied about Vic's chip (trust me, she didn't just keep it because it had useful information!), Ellison lied to the FBI about the bad bust, and Charley keeps his involvement with Sarah secret from his wife. Everybody is lying in this show! And it's inevitable that sooner or later they will all get caught up by their lies.
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Post by Big Brother on Sept 11, 2008 22:17:56 GMT -5
Consider point two above: I mean, in "Vic's Chip" they showed a Terminator who was MARRIED! I mean, talk about telegraphing a plot point! I've been suspecting that in fact Cameron is John's WIFE in the future! That WOULD explain him sending her back as an uncontrolled Terminator. It might not go that far, but clearly that whole scene in John's bedroom was an effort to make it look like Cameron is trying to seduce John for her own reasons, and that she considers him a "target" in the same sense that Vic did Barbara.
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Post by ReeseDN38416 on Sept 12, 2008 1:30:23 GMT -5
Samson and Delilah was a great episode.
I wanted to stay with Sarah and John more. I wanted to see what happened upstairs and see them on the run from Cameron. I would have enjoyed seeing them plan how to stop her etc. This episode really reminded me of the Original Terminator film - especially Cameron limping after them. And it was so much fun to be really intimate with Sarah and Reece on the run. As much fun as watching Arnold repair himself and chase them etc.
Cameron really seemed like a broken machine so great job to Summer Glau for that. The effect of Cameron pinned between the two trucks was so violent and awesome and TERMINATOR. Cameron's pleading was creepy. The effect it had on John was even creepier. The mystery of Cameron continues. It's the best thing about her character, all the questions. Did she mean those things? Does John love her? What is her relationship with John in the future? What is her agenda? Where do her loyalties lie? So much fun.
I enjoyed John cutting his hair. I enjoyed reading all the analysis of that in this thread. Sarah's pleading to John broke my heart and I hope we get a flashback to what happened.
I'm excited to see what the future holds for Charlie and Ellison. They seem to be caught between two worlds.
Shirley Manson is like a cartoon. In a good way. I love the contrast between her corporate world and the dirty, gritty world of the Connors. The T-1000 (1001?) reveal was... LOL! Funny. And creepy. I really don't see how they are going to get the Turk away from her.
Question: Did John Connor build Cameron?
I'm excited for next week.
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Post by sandrinha on Sept 12, 2008 18:38:30 GMT -5
But if Cameron does have that ability to choose whether to follow her programming or not and to think about it and around it, they can go so very far with her now, in all kinds of ways. I think this is the way to go with Cameron on the show, the possibilities are endless and it will spark discussion which is always a good thing for any show that wants to survive in the long run.
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c4j
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Post by c4j on Sept 13, 2008 23:47:37 GMT -5
This episode in some ways reminded me of the original movie in that most of it was about the chase. The suspense of where Cameron goes from here makes me come back for more.
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Post by allergygal on Sept 14, 2008 17:56:05 GMT -5
I don't think I've posted any of my random thoughts on the episode yet, so here goes: • Only in the Connor house would you find a shotgun in an bucket in the hallway along with an umbrella and a baseball bat. • Uh, where the hell did those stairs come from and where's the washer & dryer? • I loved that Sarah covered John when Cameron was about to take the shot. She was going to take the bullet. That's our Sarah! • it's been pointed out that 204 Laurel Ave is not the address from Sarah's license. That's okay because we can believe Sarah would have a false address on her license. But if she did, then how did Carlos (in WHB) tell Sarakissian's thug where to find her? The most he could have known is the address she had him put on the IDs, right? • Territorial Derek was quite unexpected and I loved seeing a new side to him. • You know, the scene in the chapel kitchen when Sarah and John are talking would have been the perfect opportunity to drop a bag of Sabor de Soledad cheese puffs into a scene • "We have to KILL her John" - Interesting choice of words when talking about a machine, especially coming from Sarah. • Ellison is divorced? Do tell. • John and screwdrivers don't get along very well. • Seat belts, people. Seat belts! • Lena totally starts to laugh when they're running across the street after zapping Cameron in the chapel. She has to put her head down to cover it. • Cameron's "I love you" speech was definitely a high point. She can play human quite convincingly when she wants to. • John points the gun at his mom... WTF? Awesome scene, though. Then he gets Cameron up and running again and he's all "take your gun back, I don't need it I've got my robot. PS - I'm burning the bridge - err this car - between us." • Sarah needs a lesson on how to spread jelly on a piece of bread. • Bathroom door scene... was there a dry eye anywhere after that? When Sarah touches the door, "can you hear me?" Damn. That episode was just perfection.
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Post by speedhunter on Dec 3, 2008 20:27:00 GMT -5
I think in a strange way John does love Cameron too,it just that he could never admit it. I'm not going to lie but when she said that it shock the hell out of me.
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