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Post by jcsorrels on Dec 4, 2008 22:03:58 GMT -5
Is Cameron strictly utilitarian and mission-oriented in her approach to humans, or does she actually "feel" attachment to certain people? Is she essentially static, or evolving in response to external stimuli? Does she simply mimic emotional responses, or is she simulating emotions enough times so that she's beginning to internalize them? These issues all fascinate us, and we're more interested in exploring them and asking questions that provoke thought and discussion than providing pat answers. And I think that makes Cameron more interesting and dynamic character than simply stating "she's an unfeeling machine" or "awwww, she wants to become more human." Pinocchio has already been done. But that isn't the same as allowing Cameron to evolve beyond her programming. I see her as being on a journey towards self determination. This includes breaking away even from John's reprogramming and becoming all that she can be as an AI. And John has a journey, too. Can a human "evolve" enough to appreciate an intimate relationship with an AI? It's one thing to have a show about a human that falls for a machine that has become "human," but another to explore the relationship between a fully self-actualized human and a fully self-actualized AI.
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Post by vicheron on Dec 4, 2008 22:15:19 GMT -5
No one in TSCC is even close to self actualization. They still haven't even satisfied the second level of the hierarchy of needs, safety. They haven't even gotten close to love and belonging or esteem.
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wb5
Private
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Post by wb5 on Dec 5, 2008 15:41:01 GMT -5
RichardStevenhack; For those still hoping Cameron has some emotions, it's clear to me that Cameron, by giving Eric information about his medical condition that she detected, was trying to insure that he continued to survive so that he could continue to let her in the library. It's clear to you, but as Zack wrote, it's actually not meant to be clear at all. Since we don't know what Cameron is "thinking", we cannot say for sure what her motivations and goals were, in the library. What is "clear" to you is still only interpretation, same as the opposite viewpoint. Not even the writer of the episode may have decided exactly why Cameron was acting this way, if it is really all meant to be ambiguous.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Dec 6, 2008 3:32:46 GMT -5
Yes, it is ambiguous. But the longer it stays ambiguous, the less interesting the character becomes. They better take heed of that. At some point, the issue needs to be resolved. Vicheron: Except that I never said that Cameron deliberately did nothing in those situations. I said that Cameron has never taken the initiative. I never said that Cameron wouldn't have done anything if no else was around. That's my whole point. We have never seen Cameron take the initiative in any of those situations. Even if we assume that Cameron was going to attack Cromartie in the school, it would have actually served to protect John Connor. You still have not given an example of Cameron attacking someone or putting herself in danger without prompt when it did not involve protecting John Connor, prior to this episode. If you want to end this argument right now then just give me such an example and I will concede It's a weak point to be making that Cameron never took the initiative if the writers never gave her the opportunity! And that was MY point - that no where in the series do we see any need for her to do so because she was either 1) always working in coordination with the Connors, or 2) presented with a situation where nothing needed to be done. It was you who made a big deal over the point that her attacking Stark was some huge deviation from her "normal" behavior. When in fact that behavior was written by the exact same writers and there is absolutely no indication that her behavior in this episode was considered by them in any way erratic, related to her alleged "glitches" or deviant in any form. Whereas I have established that her "normal behavior" is exactly that - she does whatever she needs to do to protect John, which includes cooperating with the Connors in stopping Skynet plots. Again, I don't know how many times I have to point out that stopping Skynet from existing is PRECISELY the best plan to protect John Connor, or how many times I have to point out that protecting John Connor is not only her alleged pre-programmed mission but would also be her mission if we assume as I do that she is operating on her own agenda. And therefore everything she has done from day one has been consistent with either and both theories. And attacking Stark - AGAIN - was consistent because she did not KNOW what Stark's ultimate plan was or why he was going to assassinate the Governor, but clearly it had SOMETHING to do with the only three motivations for Skynet plots we have seen to date: 1) ensuring the creation of Skynet, OR 2) smoothing Skynet's takeover, OR 3) damaging the Resistance in the future, OR 4) killing John Connor. And since Cameron had no clue which of these was relevant to the Stark plot - although there seemed to be no direct connection to Connor - she had to act. It's that simple. I think Cameron doesn't care much about plots 2 and 3 - just plots 1 and 4. But since she couldn't tell what this plot was about until the last minute, and then STILL couldn't tell what the net effect would be, she acted on her own initiative. There's simply nothing to argue about here. Cameron does what the writers want her to do. There's nothing new in what she did in this episode, except that it was a Cameron-centric episode so she did all the heavy lifting without the Connors around. We don't learn anything new about Cameron's motivations in this episode at all. All we learned is that she spends a lot of effort upgrading her knowledge of humans. But we learned nothing about whether she has a secret agenda or whether she's just programmed to protect John. Although again, the fact that she's willing to abandon her "guard dog" role at night indicates there may be some secret agenda - or the writers are just inconsistent again, as I said before.
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Post by vicheron on Dec 6, 2008 4:30:50 GMT -5
It's a weak point to be making that Cameron never took the initiative if the writers never gave her the opportunity! And that was MY point - that no where in the series do we see any need for her to do so because she was either 1) always working in coordination with the Connors, or 2) presented with a situation where nothing needed to be done. You're assuming that Cameron would have done what she did in the situations where someone else took the initiative. If Cameron really was going to those things without prompt, why didn't she do it first? In T2, after it was decided that they were going to try to prevent the creation of Skynet, it was Uncle Bob who said that they needed to destroy everything at Cyberdyne after Miles Dyson said he was going to quit his job. Sarah and John would have said it too but Uncle Bob said it first. Why didn't Cameron do anything like that? You're trying to establish motivation, something that can only be inferred. I'm establishing behavior, something that can actually be observed. Cameron has never taken the initiative, that's a behavior. Suggesting that Cameron would have done what she did without prompt is speculating on motivation and has no evidence to support it. Yet she suggested that they should move to Canada, which would essentially eliminates their chances of stopping Skynet. We learn something new about her behavior. This is the first time she took the initiative. Also, I said this in my second post concerning this topic: "The fact that Cameron went to eliminate Stark by herself suggests that either she's changed or that the person Stark is trying to assassinate will somehow affect John Connor in the future. " It was established in the second episode that Cameron knew that there were other Terminators in the past and she was unconcerned with them because they were on other missions. Her behavior in this episode is new because this is the first time she has taken the initiative without any obvious dangers to John Connor. Clearly, the writers may have plans to reveal that Stark or the mayor will somehow affect the safety of John Connor but that has not yet been established. I'm only using the information we already have.
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Post by chrisimo on Dec 6, 2008 5:56:09 GMT -5
"The fact that Cameron went to eliminate Stark by herself suggests that either she's changed or that the person Stark is trying to assassinate will somehow affect John Connor in the future. " There is also the possibility that she always pursues her own agenda during night and this is only the first time we witnessed it.
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Post by allergygal on Dec 6, 2008 6:18:26 GMT -5
The fact that Cameron went to eliminate Stark by herself suggests that either she's changed or that the person Stark is trying to assassinate will somehow affect John Connor in the future. It was established in the second episode that Cameron knew that there were other Terminators in the past and she was unconcerned with them because they were on other missions. Her behavior in this episode is new because this is the first time she has taken the initiative without any obvious dangers to John Connor. Clearly, the writers may have plans to reveal that Stark or the mayor will somehow affect the safety of John Connor but that has not yet been established. I'm only using the information we already have. I don't know if the mayor would have impacted John Connor specifically, but I think it's safe to assume the mayor would have been problematic for Skynet in some way. And while we don't necessarily know Cameron's full agenda, we at least know that, in addition to protecting John, she's trying to help them stop Skynet. If Skynet wanted the mayor dead, then preventing that death would be a victory for our side.
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Post by virgileco on Dec 6, 2008 7:10:41 GMT -5
Terminator in the wrong time, inadvertently kills man who builds building where target will be: EPIC FAIL.
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Post by allergygal on Dec 6, 2008 14:43:28 GMT -5
Terminator in the wrong time, inadvertently kills man who builds building where target will be: EPIC FAIL. He did a good job of getting everything back on track, though. If Cameron hadn't noticed him by chance in that photo, that terminator probably would have gotten the job done despite the epic fail of the time jump.
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rossbondreturns
Corporal
Summer 08 Wallpaper Challenge Winner!
Posts: 1,617
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Post by rossbondreturns on Dec 7, 2008 14:45:20 GMT -5
Terminator in the wrong time, inadvertently kills man who builds building where target will be: EPIC FAIL. He did a good job of getting everything back on track, though. If Cameron hadn't noticed him by chance in that photo, that terminator probably would have gotten the job done despite the epic fail of the time jump. Agreed. Wait...we agree!?! Holy Moses!
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terrasj
Sergeant
Rossbond Connor Crew
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Post by terrasj on Dec 7, 2008 23:59:09 GMT -5
Can't beleive I missed the ep last Monday, and was able to catch it on a different station last night. Then came here to catch up Anyways, I really liked the scene right after Cameron carried Eric up to the top floor where the film vault is. The moment when Eric gets a bit carried away talking about the film wheels - capturing and preserving a moment of someone in time. How it'd be nice to have an immortality like that - to never age or loose one's beauty over time. The look Cameron had as she was caught up in that moment, trying to grasp (or fully grasping) what he was wishfully saying. Its that look / expression she had, and Eric noticed it. One: being it applied exactly to her, she'd never age or loose her beauty (unless she lost her skin). Might've also made her contemplate the future, if she looks like this now, she'll look like this 25yrs from now too - if she survives JD. And she'll continue to look this way if she's around long enough for John to become an old man. She matched John's teenage age right now to appear as his sister, then he'd become old enough to be her father, and eventually grandfather - appearance wise. Two: Stark becomes that example, the oldest/longest functioning Terminator to date, still operational after 87 years (even on standby), his skin still intact looking not a day older than when he walled himself up. Thats not counting how many years he was in operation he was prior to the time-jump. Three: it goes along with the theme of mortality, or her case - potential immortality. All she has to do is survive to protect John. But there may come a point where she simply outlives him. Wouldn't that be a scary thought for Cameron? Once she's served her final duty to John as a care giver to his old age, (as she might've picked up on by watching that video footage of the old woman, one of the new years eve free-speech club fire survivors). Would her life still have any purpose? Would her mission to protect also extend to his children if he had any? Four: I wonder if this she wonders this will be all that she is to John, given Riley's entered the picture. Or wonder if she could ever possibly mean anything more to John. It was different in the future where she finally met him. But as it stands now, she's here with him as a teenager, who only regards her as the world's most advanced killing machine (C'mon, that had to have hurt coming from John) like a kid outgrowing a childish toy. If he regards her like this now, how'd he view her in 20yrs? Differently than the way he appreciated her in the original future? I think that'd be a pretty heavy subject for Cameron to contemplate. If there was anything to give advanced Terminator thoughts of delf doubt and worthless of self, that'd be it...
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Post by richardstevenhack on Dec 8, 2008 3:49:46 GMT -5
Vicheron: You're assuming that Cameron would have done what she did in the situations where someone else took the initiative. If Cameron really was going to those things without prompt, why didn't she do it first? How about - the writers didn't write it that way because the show is named "The Sarah Connor Chronicles", not "The Cameron Phillips Chronicles"? Whereas I'd say Arnold was pretty much the star of T-2 since it was called "Terminator". You're trying to establish motivation, something that can only be inferred. I'm establishing behavior, something that can actually be observed. Cameron has never taken the initiative, that's a behavior. Suggesting that Cameron would have done what she did without prompt is speculating on motivation and has no evidence to support it. Whereas to you, everything on this show is obvious, despite the fact that Josh has left enough footprints otherwise to make up a Sasquatch trail. Yet she suggested that they should move to Canada, which would essentially eliminates their chances of stopping Skynet.
Now here you are absolutely correct. That statement made no sense for her. In my view, it was once again the writers going for the throwaway comedy line at Cameron's expense and at the expense of consistency. In that view, I ignored it and I suspect you should, too. OTOH, perhaps you are correct and she - or more likely, the writers - actually do believe that all she should do is protect John Connor from direct and immediate threats AND has not figured out that stopping Skynet from existing is the precisely best strategy to do that. Therefore Cameron is a moron and we should expect nothing from her but to beat up people who are immediate threats. In which case, once again, I plead the writer's inability to understand their own character. Which is why *I* should be writing the show. We learn something new about her behavior. This is the first time she took the initiative. Fine. Whatever. She acted differently. And we don't know why. Ignorance is bliss. IF and WHEN the writers bother to explain this behavior, no doubt you'll be vindicated entirely. And for me, the character will become more boring. It was established in the second episode that Cameron knew that there were other Terminators in the past and she was unconcerned with them because they were on other missions. Once again - lack of action about something SHE KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT does not demonstrate "unconcern". But assume away. Her behavior in this episode is new because this is the first time she has taken the initiative without any obvious dangers to John Connor. Again, yet again, if she does not KNOW what Stark intended or the consequences thereof, while still being able to find and react to that threat, why would she ignore it as not pertaining to John Connor? She doesn't KNOW that. And neither do we. Besides which, if it turns out that Stark WAS going to be a threat to John, how would that make your theory that this is "deviant behavior" more correct? Right now, I'd say you have to HOPE that Stark's plan turns out to be a direct threat to John - or your theory goes right out the window. Clearly, the writers may have plans to reveal that Stark or the mayor will somehow affect the safety of John Connor but that has not yet been established. I'm only using the information we already have. So am I. And like I said, you'd best hope the writers agree with you. I'm done with this topic. You have your conclusion, I have mine. Terrasj: I don't think Cameron is concerned about outliving John. I think she's concerned about both of them surviving the next four years and hopefully stopping Judgment Day, so that protecting John will no longer be an issue. Then the issue will become John protecting HER. But there's no reason to believe it will take the rest of his life for her to become able to blend in and survive in the human world until such time as technology advances for humans to be her equivalent or even superior. And even if it does, she will have plenty of time to find a new protector. But that scene did indicate, once again, in my view, that Cameron's concern is survival - her survival as much or more than John's. She absolutely needs John at this time as her protector - someone who knows what she is and can guide her in dealing with humans and aid her in avoiding the future she knows will occur if Skynet is created. But after the latter threat is removed or dealt with, what matters, in my view, is what happens to her. Again, if Judgment Day occurs and the humans win the war, she's a goner. If Skynet wins, she's just another controlled robot - and possibly still a goner. In my view, if everybody wants Cameron to somehow be "human", being concerned with simple physical survival is THE defining characteristic that makes her as close to human as it will ever be possible for her to be. Not only the fear of death, but the AWARENESS of death, is THE defining human characteristic in addition to a conceptual processing ability. Ninety percent of human expression and behavior in society is related to that fear and the inherited primate reactions and behavior associated with that fear. In my view, Cameron does not actually FEAR death - because she has no emotions. But she has made a conceptual leap concerning existence that the programmed Terminators have not made. She has decided that existence is important, something that underlies all other issues, a basic axiom. And she has realized that the corollary to that is to take action to insure one's existence is the basic goal, the basic "programming". And she has acted on that realization by coming back on her own initiative to escape the future and prevent a future in which she has no chance of survival from occurring, or, failing that, to secure a protector from the most important human in that future, John Connor. If the writers haven't figured that out, they're massively missing the most important element of the character that one could develop - a real basic motivation that resonates with every human being. Even from a simple story-telling point of view: why should Skynet be the only machine ever to develop some sort of awareness of he primacy of existence and consequently attack humanity in its attempt to survive? Why not show another machine following a different path? My point is that Cameron is not just another machine sent back to protect John Connor. That's been done in T-2 and T-3 - and possibly even in T-4. It's boring. Even the development of Cameron in terms of trying to fit in with current human society, while useful for developing commentary about that society and the character, is not that dramatic. And it's been done. Providing the character with a strong basic motivation expressed in a complex way other than simple programming would be far more dramatic and interesting.
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Post by finalcylon on Dec 8, 2008 4:35:01 GMT -5
About the three stars... using night sky software (Celestia), I've searched for a match to these three stars along with the rest of the visible stars, but I failed to find anything. Someone on the Fox board said the three stars are part of the constellation Sagittarius, but I looked and I see no match there. Sagittarius has lots of triangles, but I don't see a match with the rest of the visible stars. The RA and DEC (right ascension and declination) figures on Cameron's HUD do not follow the normal conventions, so I cannot make sense of them. One clue is that Stark looks at three stars in a line (perhaps in Orion) and then pans across to the three star triangle. Does anyone know which stars comprise this three star triangle? If you want to say it's unreasonable to hope to find such a match, okay, but I was able to do it for Battlestar Galactica (that's Auriga at the top):
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rbnn
Refugee
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Post by rbnn on Dec 12, 2008 13:39:07 GMT -5
I have answered many of the questions about this episode in my essay about hidden meanings in SCC generally here. In that post, I explain (among other things) how much of the episode depends on Housman's poem, To an athlete dying young.As for the specific question that was raised on this forum, whether Cameron was alluding to her own death in her broaching the issue ("because there's something wrong with you" line) with Eric just before they go the film vault, the analysis of that post suggests the answer is affirmative. In a later conversation with Eric (after the film vault scene) she suggests her damage is like "a bomb waiting to go off" which is "inside of you, something that's damaged." These conversations are alluding to another of Housman's most well-known poems, If it chance your eye offend you which concludes From Cameron's point of view, her tendency to attack John would qualify as the kind of sickness of the soul Housman had in mind. Also, in the latter conversation, it is interesting to note the fact that Cameron said that Ewing's sarcoma was discovered at about the same time Stark was causing problems: in the 1920s.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Dec 12, 2008 18:24:16 GMT -5
I do believe Cameron is concerned with her own survival and whatever damage she has sustained, as well as being concerned about John contemplating suicide. I do not believe, however, that she is in any way interested in her own suicide which I believe is the exact opposite of her primary motivation.
Uncle Bob established that Terminators cannot suicide. However, Cameron is independent. So she may well be able to do so. And discovering that fact might be a concern to her as well.
But I don't see any evidence that she actually contemplates doing so, because she has no reason to. Humans are illogical enough to believe that suicide is somehow different from death by other means. A Terminator shouldn't be that irrational.
As I've said before, I can contemplate Cameron deciding to self-terminate or to allow John to terminate her if she becomes so totally dysfunctional and a threat to John that her goals simply cannot be achieved. But absent that actually happening, I don't see her doing it.
I still believe the bottom line with Cameron is that she is an independent AI that has decided that her existence is her primary motivation and she has come back to insure her own survival, and that goal requires her to protect John Connor and stop Skynet from existing.
And I now think it's quite likely that future John both knew and approved of those goals and sent her back precisely for those reasons. It's the only thing that explains why he would send back an independent Terminator who doesn't take orders from his past self.
And even if she came back on her own initiative, without future John's knowledge or approval, once he found out he probably did approve - since he's done nothing to alter that situation - unless he actually has sent Jesse back to change it. Which seems highly unlikely to me because he could have done that in any number of less sneaky ways. If nothing else, Jesse would have told Derek that was the case if it were true. So Jesse is acting on her own and NOT with future John's approval.
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