rossbondreturns
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Post by rossbondreturns on Oct 21, 2008 2:33:19 GMT -5
And Vicheron the Lady Terminator couldn't be a T-888 they don't come that small.
She was of the same endoskeletal make as Cameron.
Hench why Cameron took her out so easily.
And I agree with schmacky and vicheron about Sarah.
Sarah never lied...she just never corrected anyone either.
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Post by allergygal on Oct 21, 2008 2:36:27 GMT -5
Has Sarah actually admitted that she killed Sarkissian? Derek just assumed that Sarah killed him but I don't think she's actually confirmed it. She does seem to be letting John decide whether or not to tell the others what really happened. I agree with you completely. Sarah never lied to anybody, she just never corrected anyone either. She's left it up to John to tell folks what happened - but maybe that was mistake since he obviously needs someone to talk to about it and he can't talk to his mom. Man, I feel so bad for John and Sarah. Both of them wish things had been different but they know the way it had gone (meaning their entire lives and how she raised him) had to be done the way it was. It was strongly implied in S&D that she told Derek she killed him. In the warehouse, he takes a look at Cameron, who's out of comission, and doesn't ask any questions. So he's obviously already been filled in on the day's events. SO the only way he could be assuming anything is if Sarah conveniently left out anything about how Sarkissian died. But then why would Derek say "he saw it all?" What "all" would he be referring to if he hadn't been told a version of the story. Anyway, it wouldn't be logical for Derek to jump to the conclusion that Sarah did it given that just earlier that day he came to the realization that Sarah had never killed anyone before. Why can't John talk to his mom? She's open to talking about what happened — she tried to talk to him about it. So he can talk to her, he just doesn't want to for some reason.
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t101
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Post by t101 on Oct 21, 2008 2:43:15 GMT -5
She was of the same endoskeletal make as Cameron. I don't think they are the same. Cameron seemed a lot stronger physically. So Sarah lied to Derek and Charley about killing Sarkissian? That makes no sense. Bad writing, TSCC, no bone. The story beat itself is fine. The writing and the performances, particularly in this episode, were great. But the deliberate misdirection from Samson & Delilah makes no sense - it's lying to the audience and it's cheap, TSCC. There are better, easier ways to build a mystery - fool me, tease me, misdirect me but don't lie to me. That fact ruined what was otherwise a really brilliant hour of TV. I don't agree. They never lied to the audience. It's been the subject of speculation precisely because we were never told what happened. Derek could have assumed what he did for a number reasons. All it does is provide ambiguity.
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rossbondreturns
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Post by rossbondreturns on Oct 21, 2008 2:53:25 GMT -5
Well regardless a T-888 would not fint inside that skin.
The odds are they were the same.
Cameron was just far more ruthless.
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Oct 21, 2008 3:04:25 GMT -5
Sarah never lied...she just never corrected anyone either. A lie of omission is still a lie. And to make the path from Samson & Delilah to this episode make sense for me I need better than "Sarah sensed that John wasn't ready to talk about it" since this very episode demonstrated that Sarah's not very good at sensing John's emotional needs. And why, when it was apparent to her that John was struggling, does she perpetuate the lie with Derek, who might reasonably be able to help John deal with it? Her high opinion of psychiatry from her years at Pescadero? Denial? Her low opinion of Derek, which btw has not been much in evidence so far this season? Sarah's able to see that Marty's displacing to his book report but can't make the same leap for John? I know people have a hard time seeing what's right in front of them but since when was Sarah entirely oblivious? And just generally, we shouldn't be getting the motivations for the protagonist in epsiode two in episode six. Although at least now I know why Sarah hasn't had Cameron get rid of Riley but it would have been nice if a little more of that was text earlier in the season. FWIW, the episode in itself was very well written, as was GTAT, but as chapters within the larger whole, they're not working for me the way I want. TSCC has brilliant, subtle, layered character writing (give or take an explosion) which is amazing. TSCC has brilliant, subtle, layered character writing (give or take an explosive) which is frustrating me no end. On the one hand, I'm being asked to work to extrapolate from what I know about John and Sarah to figure out why Sarah's letting John flout her rules and treat her like crap. On the other, I'm not finding that the answers, when I get them, match the work I've done. Over a couple of episodes, this isn't a problem. Six is too many, IMO, particularly when so much effort goes into leading me down the garden path. Others mileage will undoubtedly vary.
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schmacky
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Post by schmacky on Oct 21, 2008 3:09:27 GMT -5
Why can't John talk to his mom? She's open to talking about what happened — she tried to talk to him about it. So he can talk to her, he just doesn't want to for some reason. I didn't mean he can't talk to her because she's not available. He can't talk to her because what he needs to talk about is about her. A lot of issues of John's are either about Sarah or because of Sarah and while he understands (sort of at this age) why she did what she did, he's still only 16 and it's hard for him to deal with it. The doc had said it wasn't John's job to take care of his mother, well what if he feels that same way? What if he's angry at her or resents her because HE had to do the killing? That HE had to protect her? He can't really go out and say that to his mom. What if he has a problem with how he was raised and treated throughout his life? You think he'd be comfortable telling that to Sarah? No, so he needs to talk to somebody else ABOUt her and his childhood and what happened in the attic, etc.
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Oct 21, 2008 3:14:24 GMT -5
The doc had said it wasn't John's job to take care of his mother, well what if he feels that same way? What if he's angry at her or resents her because HE had to do the killing? That HE had to protect her? He can't really go out and say that to his mom. And this is the Future Leader of Humanity? Is there a second choice? While I totally agree that John needs to talk about Sarah, frankly, if he blames her for what happened in the attic, I say let Cromartie have him and adopt Marty.... Which reminds me of a story about Caterina Sforza, the Countess of Forli, who left her children as hostages with the forces besieging her city in 1488 while she went to negotiate with her supporters in the citadel. Once behind the walls, she reneged on her promise to negotiate and told the besiegers to go spit. They, not surprisingly told her they'd kill her children but the Countess shrugged and said she didn't mind, she could always make more, which even for a prince of the ltalian renaissance was ice cold. Fortunately, Caterina's uncle was the Duke of Milan who came to her assistance. History tells us that Caterina smote her enemies and was generally unpleasant (which in the Italian renaissance was very unpleasant indeed) to her enemies but I've never been able to find a decent account of what, exactly happened to her children. Not, of course, that Sarah Connor would ever think such a thing. Just the weird connections my brain makes at this hour of the night.
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schmacky
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Post by schmacky on Oct 21, 2008 3:21:46 GMT -5
The doc had said it wasn't John's job to take care of his mother, well what if he feels that same way? What if he's angry at her or resents her because HE had to do the killing? That HE had to protect her? He can't really go out and say that to his mom. And this is the Future Leader of Humanity? Is there a second choice? While I totally agree that John needs to talk about Sarah, frankly, if he blames her for what happened in the attic, I say let Cromartie have him and adopt Marty. Sure, he's the Future Leader of Humanity.. the key word there being future. He's still 16 and he's obviously have a lot of issues. Future leader of mankind or not, if you kill somebody you're going to have some issues and you probably will misplace your anger. Right now, he's placing it in Sarah. Now, I didn't say blame but he could have some negative feelings about her and that situation. That doesn't mean it'll never change for him or he'll never get over it or change his viewpoint. It's just right now, this teenager just killed a man with his bare hands to protect his mother. Yeah, if he is angry at her for it, it's not rational. But, it doesn't seem like much of John's actions have been rational lately. edit: when Marty gets into his teens, he'll probably blame Sarah for something as well... Sarah never lied...she just never corrected anyone either. A lie of omission is still a lie. And to make the path from Samson & Delilah to this episode make sense for me I need better than "Sarah sensed that John wasn't ready to talk about it" since this very episode demonstrated that Sarah's not very good at sensing John's emotional needs. And why, when it was apparent to her that John was struggling, does she perpetuate the lie with Derek, who might reasonably be able to help John deal with it? It's not about Sarah being oblivious or not in tune with John's feelings. It's that she's in denial that her son has a problem. Atleast that's how I see it. And I don't think she said anything to Derek in S&D, as in lying to Derek and telling him she did it. Yes, earlier that day he said she hadn't killed anyone before, but I think Derek thought Sarah was a lot closer to doing it than John would be. So he assumed and she never corrected him. And yeah, maybe Derek could of helped out John during this time, but what did John say? Sarah: Well maybe I need to talk about it John: Well maybe you do but I don't so let's not. He didn't want to talk about it, not then. So Sarah didn't say anything. When John wants to talk about, he will, like he started to. I think that was a mistake on Sarah's part though, but she's not perfect as we all know.
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t101
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Post by t101 on Oct 21, 2008 3:26:51 GMT -5
John's behavior is typical PTSD. Yes he may feel like blaming someone, even his mother, or the whole world. But that is just what comes with being messed up, I'm sure he doesn't think she's to blame. In fact he doesn't, he gets why things the way they are. But he may still feel it because reason or not, people are not machines and everything has its price.
I'm impressed by the psychology here. They are not overlooking the very real implications of everything that is John's life, leader of humanity or no.
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Post by vicheron on Oct 21, 2008 3:38:41 GMT -5
John's behavior is typical PTSD. Yes he may feel like blaming someone, even his mother, or the whole world. But that is just what comes with being messed up, I'm sure he doesn't think she's to blame. In fact he doesn't, he gets why things the way they are. But he may still feel it because reason or not, people are not machines and everything has its price. I'm impressed by the psychology here. They are not overlooking the very real implications of everything that is John's life, leader of humanity or no. It should be noted that John's "normal" behavior matches that of someone with PTSD. Even before the incident with Sarkissian, he's had exposure to traumatic events, he's been in a persistent state of increased arousal, he's had impairments in social functioning, and he's had these symptoms for more than one month.
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schmacky
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Post by schmacky on Oct 21, 2008 3:46:05 GMT -5
I agree with both of you t101 and vicheron.
John is handling it best he can and a bit of misplaced anger and blame after a seriously life-altering traumatic event isn't cause for "Cromartie to have him"
I know you're a big support of Sarah, k8ie - as am I but I think John's feelings and reactions have made a lot of sense no matter how annoying and stupid and unrational they've been.
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Oct 21, 2008 4:00:43 GMT -5
From S&D:
DEREK: So I'm guessing Sarakissian didn't tell you where he sold the Turk before you killed him?
SARAH: Wasn't that kind of conversation.
DEREK: Did he see it all?
SARAH: He saw it all.
Sarah chooses to let Derek believe she did something she didn't and if that's not lying than my mum owes me a hell of a big apology.
Surely, part of being a parent is that you don't let your 16-year-old dictate how you deal with your first mother-son murder, regardless of who choked whom. And if the point is that Sarah's screwing up, as it may well be, could we see that please? This isn't a question about why Derek did or didn't got through the door marked RADIOACTIVE, it's an plot that goes directly to the heart of the central relationship of the show. So if Sarah's screwing up as a parent, and John and Sarah's relationship is at the center of the show, then that's something I'd like to see addressed in text sooner rather than later. There's a difference between leaving space for the viewer and leaving them to stumble around in the dark and I'm feeling rather more of the latter than the former lately.
And, apart from my own personal annoyance, I don't honestly see what the ambiguity gains us from the point of view of story - all it's done is thrown the character behaviours of the four interim episodes into a different light, but since the only character that's really advanced since S&D is Cameron and her characterization isn't impacted by whether it's John or Sarah who killed Sarkission. Frankly, I don't feel I know anything more about John and Sarah than what we knew about them in the mission kitchen so I'm hoping, as I believe I've said, that there's one more piece of the puzzle that gives Sarah a motive for lying about what happened in the attic beyond John's desire to be Garbo about it.
I agree that John's angry with Sarah, Schmacky, it's the idea that he blames her that I have a problem with and where my ability to empathize with the character ends.
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Post by potomac79 on Oct 21, 2008 4:16:00 GMT -5
It seems to me that Skynet in the current future timeline is improvising a bit. The self-destructing CPU is something that makes a lot of sense--and likely a cause for Cameron to thank her lucky stars that she was assembled before the update--otherwise she'd have been dead at "Vick's Chip". As for being able to pretzel the red-shirt terminator: well, there is a missing truckload of Coltan I'm sure Skynet would have liked to had available for stronger endoskeletons<whistles innocently>. Hmmmm...self-destructing chip. Substandard construction. Sounds like there's a little desperation there. The Derek and Jesse stuff...too long. I mean, the invent a new sex word? ZZZZZZZZZ I have to agree with the earlier comment that this was a nicely nuanced performance for the Catherine Weaver character. She's clearly a terminator out of her element with Savannah, but she's doing her best to adapt in order to maintain her cover. It good that the girl is in therapy now--if they waited until later she might never end up being anywhere near sane. I can't help but wonder, if Savannah survives Judgment Day, then which side would she be on? John/humanity's or mommy's? And there is so much more to talk about, and I will, but for now I'm just going to link you to my regularly scheduled blog and flesh it out here after a little more thought about this eppie.
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schmacky
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Post by schmacky on Oct 21, 2008 4:17:43 GMT -5
I agree that John's angry with Sarah, Schmacky, it's the idea that he blames her that I have a problem with and where my ability to empathize with the character ends. I don't see John blaming her for what happened though. I think he's angry that both of them were in that situation. I think he's angry that he did have to kill him and protect her. But, I don't see him blaming her for it. I did a video about John & Sarah awhile back and just posted it here on the forums the other day. It's called I am Your Child and what I tried to show was that John felt all sorts of things about his mother when he was young - her poor attempts at regular motherhood, how he thought she was pathetic and a loser and a psycho liar. But, the video is from future John's POV and him basically retracting all the negative thoughts he had about her during his youth because as an adult he understands and sees things more clearly. This Sarkissian situation is just one of those things that later in life, John will see and think of differently. But right now, in the present, he's at a different state of mind. And though it might not be fair to Sarah, that's how he feels.
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t101
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Post by t101 on Oct 21, 2008 4:26:45 GMT -5
From S&D: Sarah chooses to let Derek believe she did something she didn't and if that's not lying than my mum owes me a hell of a big apology. Personally I said that the show isn't lying to the audience. It was clear to me that Sarah was not telling the whole story. Why? I'll come to that. I think it's exactly what we saw. It's subtle but it's there. John clearly wants to open up to that psychiatrist, he doesn't to his warrior of a mother. Sarah can't get him to open up to her, yet she fails to acknowledge (until the end perhaps) that maybe someone else is more fit to help. Why would she lie to Derek? Same reason perhaps, she's overprotective. That manifests itself in the fact that she can't trust anyone other than herself with John. She practically says as much all the time. Besides. John doesn't want to talk about it. So reasonably she may be weary of doing it for him. It may very well isolate John even more, if Derek comes to him with, "Hey, your mom told me everything..." John told her he doesn't want to talk about it, so why would she force him in a position to do exactly that with someone else? It's not a black and white issue. And I think it's reasonable that she doesn't know how to handle it one way or another.
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