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Post by entelechy on Mar 22, 2009 23:01:53 GMT -5
Clearly there must be some element in John’s approach to winning the war that is both unique and effective (although I am sure there is not only one element, I am simplifying). The most likely candidate for this element, at least in this series, is his insistence on using machines against machines. It seems that no character in the series is aware of the possibility that perhaps it is John’s very insistence on using machines against machines in the resistance that makes him the one who is able to win the war where others likely would have failed. This is the one point on which nearly all humans seem to disagree with him, but this is also probably his most important strategic move.
In reality, humans would not stand a chance against machines that were both much more intelligent and much more physically resilient and powerful than them. If it were also the case that machines outnumbered humans, obviously this would not help humans’ chances at all; and it is very likely that machines would soon outnumber humans, since it would be much easier and faster to create new, fully functional machines than it would be to raise children in a post-Judgment Day world. (Even if humans had the technology available to ‘grow’ fully mature humans in labs somehow, it is still unlikely that they could outpace the creation of machines). Given all of these factors, it seems that the only chance that humans would have of surviving against super-intelligent, super-powerful machines that outnumber them would be to get some machines on their side in an attempt to even things out to some degree. This seems to be the main thing that sets John’s vision apart from others’ visions of how to win the war for humanity.
I wonder if this point will ever be explicitly addressed in any episode, as it is constantly being mentioned how seemingly foolish John is in using (and trusting) machines in order to win the war, while there also exists the constant awareness by everyone that John is apparently humankind’s only hope in avoiding annihilation. I was kind of hoping that this point would be addressed to Jessie at some point, since she is so adamantly opposed to John’s use and trust of machines. Maybe it will be addressed at some point, but I’m not sure if Friedman et al. themselves have this in mind. At any rate, it is the kind of issue that might be best addressed near the very end of the series than at any other time.
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Post by vicheron on Mar 23, 2009 12:02:23 GMT -5
Actually, it is highly unlikely that machines could outnumber the humans. Machines require special materials and a lot of energy to build. The resources needed to build machines have to be mined or recycled from the husks of destroyed cities. Some of the rarer materials can only be acquired from certain locations like Petroleum, Uranium and Coltan. Energy generation will be a big problem since Judgment Day will have destroyed so much infrastructure. Skynet will have to build a lot of power plants from scratch and of course, find a way to supply those power plants with coal, petroleum, uranium, etc. Renewable energy sources like wind and solar can work too but they're not reliable enough and don't generate enough energy so they can only serve as a back up energy source. Also, Skynet doesn't start with a prebuilt army, it has to gather the resources and create the infrastructure needed to build an army. Humans on the other hand, still numbered in the billions after Judgment Day.
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Post by VALIANT CHAMPION on Mar 24, 2009 17:52:44 GMT -5
Machines can be fixed and are replaceable. A human life cannot be replaced.
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gulde
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Post by gulde on Jul 19, 2009 4:38:29 GMT -5
IMHO humans have a great disadvantage, because they have almost no air support (according to the T1, 2, 3 and TSCC, they have had some air units in 2018 according to Salvation, so they've evidently lost them during those 9 ears between 2018-2027, or simply don't have fuel for them, and Iam pretty sure, that humans couldn't hold airfields in their hands, cause Skynet would focus on destroying them), maybe only some helicopters, and they wouldn't have so much fuel to keep them functional for long time. On the other side, Skynet has his HKs, so he can strike at resistance whenever and wherever he wants. Actually thats the reason, why air support is decisive strike force in all modern armies of the world. Who controls the skyes, controls the battle. And someone should delete this spambot above this post .
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Post by vicheron on Jul 19, 2009 15:11:57 GMT -5
Skynet has all the technologies of modern warfare. It has artilleries, missiles, bombers, and all sorts of things that allows it to kill its enemies from miles away. That's why the Resistance uses guerrilla warfare. The Resistance uses subterfuge to evade all the surveillance technology like spy planes and satellites that Skynet uses to coordinate its long ranged weapons. That forces Skynet to build machines that can engage the Resistance at short range, which evens the odds quite a bit.
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gulde
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Post by gulde on Jul 19, 2009 19:02:49 GMT -5
Actually, Skynet's strategy is now to infiltrate to the resistance, and then kill them all from the inside, thats for sure, because from T-600 Skynet has started to built terminators, that are at least a little capable of infiltrating, and similiar missions.
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Post by vicheron on Jul 19, 2009 19:51:21 GMT -5
Skynet infiltrates because the Resistance, under the command of John Connor, has forced it to utilize that strategy. John taught the survivors to hide and move in such a way that would make Skynet's conventional weapons ineffective. Infiltration is not an efficient method of eradicating people. A cluster bomb or incendiaries can kill far more people much faster, cost less resources, and uses less advanced technology than Terminators. However, since the Resistance is able to evade Skynet's surveillance technology, it has to send out the far less efficient Terminators.
Terminator Salvation made the mistake of showing the Resistance being able to fight Skynet in open warfare. Based on James Cameron and TSCC's vision of the future, Skynet would have easily obliterated those Resistance bases with cruise missiles, stealth bombers, or even nuclear weapons.
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Alexis
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Post by Alexis on Jul 19, 2009 20:44:04 GMT -5
Skynet infiltrates because the Resistance, under the command of John Connor, has forced it to utilize that strategy. John taught the survivors to hide and move in such a way that would make Skynet's conventional weapons ineffective. I agree. That's the best logical explanation. Infiltration is not an efficient method of eradicating people. A cluster bomb or incendiaries can kill far more people much faster, cost less resources, and uses less advanced technology than Terminators. However, since the Resistance is able to evade Skynet's surveillance technology, it has to send out the far less efficient Terminators. Yep. However, speaking of effective killing methods, the most effective of them would be to spread a lethal virus around the world. On the other hand, that would be the end of the whole franchise. Humans die. Skynet wins. Fortunately, it looks like the most advanced computer in the planet is not very clever after all. We can see that Skynet started to use biological weapons in TSCC's version of the post-JD future though (Alpine Fields). But, fortunately, again there is always someone who develops some kind of miraculous immunity. Anyway, there are not many possible alternative paths for the writers to choose in order to escape from those 'common places' in such situations. Terminator Salvation made the mistake of showing the Resistance being able to fight Skynet in open warfare. Based on James Cameron and TSCC's vision of the future, Skynet would have easily obliterated those Resistance bases with cruise missiles, stealth bombers, or even nuclear weapons. The whole movie is a huge mistake. ;D
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Post by vicheron on Jul 20, 2009 5:53:00 GMT -5
A lethal virus wouldn't work since there would be no way to propagate it. Unlike the present day world, humans are far more isolated after Judgment Day. There's not a lot of traffic between different communities and it takes a lot more time for people to move between different settlements. As a result, it would be very easy to quarantine the outbreak of any disease.
Skynet can try to compensate for it by giving the virus a longer incubation period but that would also give more time for the Resistance to detect it and warn everyone about it. Not to mention the fact that the Resistance would make any Skynet installation involved in the research or development of biological weapons a priority target. Any equipment seized from those installations would also be of great value to the Resistance since it would allow them to perform medical research not only on engineered biological weapons but also naturally occurring diseases.
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gulde
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Post by gulde on Jul 20, 2009 5:56:13 GMT -5
Yep. However, speaking of effective killing methods, the most effective of them would be to spread a lethal virus around the world. On the other hand, that would be the end of the whole franchise. Humans die. Skynet wins. Fortunately, it looks like the most advanced computer in the planet is not very clever after all. He uses these sort of things. In T1 Kyle said, that Skynet is poisoning their water supplies. THATS very effective.
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Post by vicheron on Jul 20, 2009 19:54:19 GMT -5
Kyle never said that in T1.
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gulde
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Post by gulde on Jul 20, 2009 19:59:31 GMT -5
I'am almost sure, that he did. But even if he didn't, it said someone else, Iam pretty sure. It was sometime when there was a scene from the future, just before one of the T-800s got to the bunker and started shooting.
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Post by vicheron on Jul 20, 2009 20:28:31 GMT -5
No one said anything about poisoned water supplies in T1.
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gulde
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Post by gulde on Jul 21, 2009 4:27:35 GMT -5
No one said anything about poisoned water supplies in T1. Sorry mate, but it did, watch the movie again .
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Post by vicheron on Jul 21, 2009 17:23:02 GMT -5
There were four lines of dialogue in that entire scene, in addition to some background radio chatter, nothing about poisoned water. The lines were: "Let's go." "Reese. DN384..." "Right, let him in." "Terminator! Terminator!"
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