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Post by entelechy on Mar 22, 2009 23:46:35 GMT -5
When I first saw “Last Voyage of the Jimmy Carter”, I thought that Derek had killed Jesse, but then after thinking about it, I don’t think he did. If he had killed her, I don’t think that we would have been kept from witnessing her actual killing. The obvious implication is that the audience was not shown Jesse’s killing simply to add to the suspense that comes from never being totally sure as to whether Derek shot her or not. It seems unlikely, though, that such ambiguity would be written into the story for this purpose alone.
Derek’s words to John that “John Connor let her go” can have two meanings. The straightforward interpretation of what Derek is indicating is: “John Connor isn’t responsible for Jesse’s death, since he ordered her to be set free – I, Derek, am responsible for her death”. When Derek says to Jesse that “John Connor told me to let you go….I’m not John Connor”, the straightforward interpretation of this is that although it was John’s wish that Jesse be set free, Derek has a mind of his own, and he doesn’t always follow orders (which he doesn’t). But if it turns out that Derek did not in fact shoot Jesse, the phrase could indicate something like: “John Connor told me to let you go, but I’m not John Connor, and if it were my call I would kill you; but Connor has spoken”. In the latter case, Derek would be expressing his loyalty to John rather than his rebelliousness. Clearly we were meant to think that Derek killed Jesse, both by his actions and his words, but if the phrase just mentioned has the last meaning instead of the first, it would give Derek’s words and tone a sort of ironic twist.
Certainly it would not have been out of character for Derek to have killed Jesse, as he emphasizes to her just before scaring her off, but it would not be totally out of character for him to have let her go either, given his apparent humane side.
Of course this is all just speculation on my part as to what the writers of the series have in mind. Either scenario could be the case: Derek could have killed Jesse or he could have let her go. And this is just the sort of ambiguity that is meant to exist for the audience. It could even be the case that the writers themselves are not sure about where they are going to take this particular story thread, but want to keep their options open. I think I would prefer the ironic twist scenario myself.
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schmacky
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Post by schmacky on Mar 23, 2009 0:00:34 GMT -5
I think he didn't kill her and listened to John because of the first scene of the episode with John asking about Derek's future. Not the future he came from, but the man's actual future.. what lies ahead for him. Today is the day. Will Derek be honest and stay loyal or will he keep the truth from him like Riley did? I think Derek told John everything and he will stay loyal and follow orders. John Connor let Jesse go. Derek isn't John Connor, but he follows his orders.
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Post by entelechy on Mar 23, 2009 5:49:42 GMT -5
Yes, exactly - he isn't John, but he follows John's orders.
I didn't consider too much the part where John asks about Derek's future, but now that you mention it, I think you're right in thinking that it has an important significance to the episode and to what's to come.
Mod Note: Please do not double post. As a courtesy, the deleted post will be pasted below, but further double posts will be summarily deleted.
Realized something else. Derek speaks to John about time complicating things. And he also tells Jesse that she's not his Jesse and never was. He actually means this second part literally. She comes from a different timeline than the one in which he originally met her. He thinks that things he's done since going back in time, including killing Wisher, and possibly things that others have done, have changed who Jesse has become, such that she literally (in a sense) is not the same person whom he knew from before.
Given that both Derek and Jesse let the young version of that one war criminal guy go based upon the fact that he wasn't the 'same' person as the war criminal Jesse had known, and based upon the possibility that he might now lead a different life, and given the fact that Jesse was apparently the one who decided to let him go, even against Derek's own inclination, I would think that Derek would show a similar mercy to Jesse in her case, especially since he holds himself partially responsible for the new person she has become.
There's a parallel between the two cases in that in the war criminal case, Derek also realized that the future he (Derek) had come from was not the same future that Jesse had subsequently come from, and he recognized the possibility that some of the things he had done in the past had already changed the future (albeit in the war criminal's case apparently for the better, at least for Derek).
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Post by aceplace57 on Mar 23, 2009 18:51:47 GMT -5
For me that scene with Derek and Jesse crossed an ethical line. Watching him aim a gun, at a totally helpless woman, as she runs for her life bothered me. Especially when she turned at looked at him. Adding the thumping rock beat didn't help. There's nothing cool or exciting about men abusing women. The shelters are filled to capacity in these tough times. The numbers climb anytime there's a downturn in the economy.
The scene bothered me more because Derek is portrayed as a reasonably intelligent and sane guy. The line between fiction and reality blurred. It would have been different if he was insane, a terminator, or even a space monster. Then, it would be easier to say, "It's just a character in a show." I didn't feel comfortable seeing a guy that could be my neighbor doing that.
I'd like to think Jesse is ok. We'll probably never know unless there's a 3rd season. Just my 2 cents on the subject.
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Rift
Refugee
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Post by Rift on Mar 23, 2009 19:16:29 GMT -5
I'm torn on whether or not he killed her. Given his speech to her about how no good could have come from Riley's death he isn't entirely cold. Then again this is the guy who blew away Andy Good and then lied to Sarah freaking Connor about doing so.
Personally, aside from the fact he would have disobeyed John, I don't have a problem if he did kill her, even if I do like seeing the human enemies the Connors face. Quite frankly she's a traitor. Traitors have been executed in times of war since forever and given what she knows about Team Connor and the damage she could cause both to them in the present and how she could affect the future, its a tactically sound move to execute her. Even if her back was turned and she was unarmed. When the stakes are so high the entire human race is at risk I find it acceptable.
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Post by VALIANT CHAMPION on Mar 23, 2009 19:33:28 GMT -5
Well in favor of her death I would present that Derek made a smooth full pull of the trigger on the pistol.
The only way of course of it not going off is if it was unloaded.
If it went off it doesn't necessarily mean Jesse is dead (he may have missed).
Derek is a cold blooded killer. He would definitely not be the kind of person you would want to live with.
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Post by vicheron on Mar 23, 2009 22:19:40 GMT -5
If they're really going with the multiple timelines then even if Derek killed Jesse, there's still another version of her alive in the future, same thing with Riley. Of course, that also creates tons of problems, particularly with this John trying to prevent the little uprising and trying to save Riley in the future.
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Post by killerurinal on Mar 24, 2009 20:54:45 GMT -5
I think for plot purposes Jesse is still alive.
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Post by thecolours on Mar 25, 2009 11:10:25 GMT -5
I think for plot purposes Jesse is still alive. Well, Stephanie Jacobsen has been cast in the new Melrose's Place. So, I don't think we'll be seeing Jesse around in season 3. Unless, Stephanie is going to guest star like Dean Winters is in the next episode. www.tvguide.com/News/Pilot-Jacobsen-Egglesfield-1004356.aspx |
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Post by hicks on Mar 26, 2009 13:19:25 GMT -5
For me that scene with Derek and Jesse crossed an ethical line. Watching him aim a gun, at a totally helpless woman, as she runs for her life bothered me. Especially when she turned at looked at him. Adding the thumping rock beat didn't help. There's nothing cool or exciting about men abusing women. The shelters are filled to capacity in these tough times. The numbers climb anytime there's a downturn in the economy. The scene bothered me more because Derek is portrayed as a reasonably intelligent and sane guy. The line between fiction and reality blurred. It would have been different if he was insane, a terminator, or even a space monster. Then, it would be easier to say, "It's just a character in a show." I didn't feel comfortable seeing a guy that could be my neighbor doing that. I'd like to think Jesse is ok. We'll probably never know unless there's a 3rd season. Just my 2 cents on the subject. Really? This is war, at least in TSCC, and Jesse is a quasi traitor. To be so naive to say she or any woman is innocent while acting in the capacity the character does is off. Maybe he should get her a jury of her peers and have a trial..comon. Derek is protecting John and Jesse is endangering him. PERIOD. Was she insane for torturing the computer guy or killing 'blondie'? No. This story is actually more clear cut black and white than many others. Train and protect John and if possible, attempt to stop Skynet. |
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Post by VALIANT CHAMPION on Apr 8, 2009 12:18:46 GMT -5
She could be alive because if you remember in the one episode. The one with the skynet attack.
That when Cameron explained to Derek what all happened to Jesse and how she lost her baby that as they were driving to meet Sarah at the safehouse Derek said that Cameron telling her about Jesse was the right thing to do.
He seemed to have been very releaved after that.
If he had killed Jesse and then found out about that would he have acted relieved?
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wb5
Private
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Post by wb5 on Apr 8, 2009 13:08:12 GMT -5
Good point. I do think the writers will use this character again, in a guest role, if they get a S3.
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schmacky
Major
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Posts: 522
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Post by schmacky on Apr 8, 2009 13:48:25 GMT -5
I think it would be awesome if Jesse came back. It brings up new questions and challenges for the Connors. John COnnor says humans are irreplaceable. Sarah Connor says people matter, they're all that matters. BUt, what do you do when you have someone you can't trust? Someone that has betrayed you? Does that person still matter? Are they still irreplaceable? When you're the underdog and don't have many soldiers, can you really be super picky? Beggers can't be choosers. Or can they?
If Jesse came back, would she be part of the team? A background character coming and going? How would she react to Derek's death? Would she follow young John with no problems? Would she follow Sarah's lead?
I think it'd be cool if she was back. But maybe not _all_ the time. I don't know.
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Post by VALIANT CHAMPION on Apr 10, 2009 23:18:08 GMT -5
Maybe Jesse is running the resistance in the future.
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Post by Endless Numbered Days on Apr 20, 2009 2:04:40 GMT -5
Even if Derek did make a good trigger pull, a hangfire would cause the gun to not go off. Maybe he was handloading his own ammunition and screwed up. XD
I think she's dead, if only because the teaser trailer for the episode after that said something like... "Three people sent to protect John have been killed..." and it showed Riley, and Jesse as two of those people. I can't remember exactly what it said.
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