Post by richardstevenhack on Dec 2, 2008 8:22:25 GMT -5
Once again, people are presuming that everything that happens in the future is the result of what John and/or Skynet remember from their past. But at the same time, both John and Skynet are trying to change that past in order to change the future.
Which, again, would logically result in neither one of them knowing what happened in the past and thus being unable to do anything rational to change the outcomes. All they would ever know about the past is what they remember - and if the past changed, their memories would change and thus they would still never know if what they did in the past had any effect on the present.
The only way anybody can tell who won is if 1) Judgment Day never happens until John Connor grows old and dies normally - which at least lets him out of it, or 2) Judgment Day happens and John Connor dies in the course of the war and the humans lose. Since the war isn't over in the future, clearly no one has won yet. Therefore it's impossible to tell HOW to win by doing things in the past. It's a crap shoot!
This once again is the time travel paradox. If you try to think about it, you lose. The story makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
John didn't deliberately send Kyle back to be his father and die. If things are that predestined and a closed loop, then the whole "the future is not set" theme they push in the franchise becomes ridiculous. Everyone is just going through the motions of a closed loop: Judgment Day is unavoidable, John Connor as leader of the Resistance is unavoidable, sending Kyle back is unavoidable, and Connor beating Skynet is unavoidable. Which obviates the whole point of doing anything. It's just a meaningless game in a predestined universe.
What makes more sense - at least, enough sense to make watching the movies and the TV series halfway reasonable - is to assume that Sarah Connor would have had a John Connor anyway. And that he would have grown up to be future John anyway. Kyle was just a slight deviation from what would have happened anyway. But that once John Connor in the present is aware of Judgment Day, now he actually has a chance to stop it. And if he does stop it, then the future from which all these people come back ceases to exist. The people can remain since they came back from a time line that no longer exists. But that's the only way you can conceive of the notion of stopping Judgment Day as making any objective sense.
Now, you can assume that TRYING to stop Judgment Day is a reasonable response on the characters' part. But if in fact things are so predestined that future John HAS to send Kyle back in order for him to ever exist, then it's just pointless - it's all a closed loop and predestined. Nothing can be changed.
Or view the whole movie franchise and TV series as an exercise in watching history play out that we already know the end of. Just try to enjoy a (pointless) struggle.
Personally I find movies like Titanic or historical dramas - where the end of the characters is already known and fatalistic - fairly irritating. They might do well at the box office if they're well done, but there's nothing new about them. I don't think science fiction lends itself well to that sort of story.
If the story is one part cautionary tale about technology, one part hopeful story about influencing our lives for the better, and one part exploration of the relationship between man and AIs, then the story works.
If it's just about a set of predestined events, it's a lot less interesting.
I say all that to get back on topic that Allison wasn't sent to her death just to create Cameron, just as Kyle was not sent back to become John's father. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and renders the entire story concept meaningless.
We don't know who Allison was to John - and I suspect we'll never know unless Josh needs it to further develop something in the story - such as the relationship between future John and Cameron.
Remember, as far as I know, there are no plans to ever show future John in the flesh. Therefore, any back story about Allison will have to come from Derek or some other future "flash-forward" without directly involving John.
The fact that Derek in present time hasn't once mentioned Allison indicates that she really isn't that significant - unless Derek is just concealing all sorts of things from present time John for his own reasons. So unless Allison becomes significant to present time John, we're unlikely to ever find out anything more about her. She's just some associate of John who was the model for Cameron - end of story.
Unless Zack wants to tell us that we WILL see more of Allison. Zack?
Which, again, would logically result in neither one of them knowing what happened in the past and thus being unable to do anything rational to change the outcomes. All they would ever know about the past is what they remember - and if the past changed, their memories would change and thus they would still never know if what they did in the past had any effect on the present.
The only way anybody can tell who won is if 1) Judgment Day never happens until John Connor grows old and dies normally - which at least lets him out of it, or 2) Judgment Day happens and John Connor dies in the course of the war and the humans lose. Since the war isn't over in the future, clearly no one has won yet. Therefore it's impossible to tell HOW to win by doing things in the past. It's a crap shoot!
This once again is the time travel paradox. If you try to think about it, you lose. The story makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
John didn't deliberately send Kyle back to be his father and die. If things are that predestined and a closed loop, then the whole "the future is not set" theme they push in the franchise becomes ridiculous. Everyone is just going through the motions of a closed loop: Judgment Day is unavoidable, John Connor as leader of the Resistance is unavoidable, sending Kyle back is unavoidable, and Connor beating Skynet is unavoidable. Which obviates the whole point of doing anything. It's just a meaningless game in a predestined universe.
What makes more sense - at least, enough sense to make watching the movies and the TV series halfway reasonable - is to assume that Sarah Connor would have had a John Connor anyway. And that he would have grown up to be future John anyway. Kyle was just a slight deviation from what would have happened anyway. But that once John Connor in the present is aware of Judgment Day, now he actually has a chance to stop it. And if he does stop it, then the future from which all these people come back ceases to exist. The people can remain since they came back from a time line that no longer exists. But that's the only way you can conceive of the notion of stopping Judgment Day as making any objective sense.
Now, you can assume that TRYING to stop Judgment Day is a reasonable response on the characters' part. But if in fact things are so predestined that future John HAS to send Kyle back in order for him to ever exist, then it's just pointless - it's all a closed loop and predestined. Nothing can be changed.
Or view the whole movie franchise and TV series as an exercise in watching history play out that we already know the end of. Just try to enjoy a (pointless) struggle.
Personally I find movies like Titanic or historical dramas - where the end of the characters is already known and fatalistic - fairly irritating. They might do well at the box office if they're well done, but there's nothing new about them. I don't think science fiction lends itself well to that sort of story.
If the story is one part cautionary tale about technology, one part hopeful story about influencing our lives for the better, and one part exploration of the relationship between man and AIs, then the story works.
If it's just about a set of predestined events, it's a lot less interesting.
I say all that to get back on topic that Allison wasn't sent to her death just to create Cameron, just as Kyle was not sent back to become John's father. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and renders the entire story concept meaningless.
We don't know who Allison was to John - and I suspect we'll never know unless Josh needs it to further develop something in the story - such as the relationship between future John and Cameron.
Remember, as far as I know, there are no plans to ever show future John in the flesh. Therefore, any back story about Allison will have to come from Derek or some other future "flash-forward" without directly involving John.
The fact that Derek in present time hasn't once mentioned Allison indicates that she really isn't that significant - unless Derek is just concealing all sorts of things from present time John for his own reasons. So unless Allison becomes significant to present time John, we're unlikely to ever find out anything more about her. She's just some associate of John who was the model for Cameron - end of story.
Unless Zack wants to tell us that we WILL see more of Allison. Zack?