|
Post by amelie on Aug 14, 2008 21:29:55 GMT -5
Yeah well... I think that as a own individual he can't do everything. He must stay closer with Sarah because, as a team, he can achieve way better things.
We know he won't be able to stop everything by himself.... but sometimes, man are so self-centered to see the advantages to work in team. (I say 'man' for mankind, don't want to start a battle of the gender here ! lol)
|
|
taffy13
Refugee
Summer 08 Wallpaper Challenge Winner!
lost along the way
Posts: 29
|
Post by taffy13 on Aug 20, 2008 4:48:28 GMT -5
Okay, I know I'm late to the party here, but here's my views on Derek.
Derek, from all I see of him, looks to me like a deeply caring individual. It's in everything he does, the driving force of him as a person. He cares. When Sarah first showed up to see him while he was in jail, the first thing he did was to try and get her the hell out of there, because he didn't want her to get caught up in the terminator after him mess. He continued with that, trying to get her to go.
Beyond that it's things on subtle levels. He asks the rhetorical question 'how do you tell an 8 year old the machines have taken over the world' and his answer was 'you don't.' So, how long did he try to shield his brother from that, even in the midst of the world ending around him?
Kyle came off to me as a much lighter, brighter personality than Derek, and I'm thinking that it was very much due to the fact that Derek had taken very good care of him.
Derek took John out for ice cream and showed him his dad, which he didn't have to do either. He just in general seems to be trying to fight for the people he cares about, even if half the time showing it in non-terribly-violent ways isn't quite an option. He does it by trying to keep people alive and well.
I think Derek is a believer, has to be in a lot of respects. He's definitely not happy with John, the first thing he did when he was waking up on the table was scream at John that he was owed an explanation on what happened to his brother. So there's got to be a whole lot of bitter going on there--and yet he's all about keeping them all safe, and isn't even taking it out on them.
|
|
|
Post by allergygal on Aug 20, 2008 15:17:09 GMT -5
The interesting thing about Derek and John's relationship is that Derek is actively influencing the man who he doesn't seem all that pleased with in the future. In D&D, I think we're left with the impression that Kyle was much closer to John than Derek ever was. He was also none too happy with John's reprogramming of machines or his sending of Kyle on a classified mission. And now Derek has the opportunity to alter that by telling John over and over again not to trust machines.
|
|
|
Post by Derek Reese on Aug 20, 2008 15:21:42 GMT -5
That makes perfect sense in regards to the situation at hand, but there are bound to be some more consequences to it. Perhaps, Derek will be the one to bring in more soldierly like offensive behavior, when it comes down to taking down "metal" to borrow from the other thread discussion. From what we've seen thus far, Derek seems to be more lecturing at the moment, despite his own offensive tactics.
From the trailers though we can see the two of them working more prominently together in military garb and Derek's seriously running him through his paces military style, attacking what one could assume is "metal" once more.
|
|
k8ie
Corporal
Posts: 1,482
|
Post by k8ie on Aug 20, 2008 15:42:13 GMT -5
I think there are two Derek Reeses - the guy who would teach his four-year-old brother (and his eight-year-old brother) how to hit a baseball (hmmmm, where's Reese-pere in all this?) and the guy who shoots Andy Goode in the head because he might/did create a computer that destroys the world.
John brings out both those instincts but, as much as I want to kick Derek for killing Andy (dude, so wrong, it was like killing a puppy, to borrow from AG), I think there's a good heart in there but I think, like Sarah, he broke hard when he lost Kyle to the machines and whatever else might have happened during that period have left him believing that he's not one of the good guys.
It lets him shoot people in the head but it also puts him in a place where he can't see the alternatives to shooting people in the head - see Connor, Sarah J. circa June 1997.
What works about the character is that Derek is written and played as an adult - someone who's capable of seeing the difference between John Connor at 15 and John Connor at 40 - and not some petulant boy-man taking his angst out on innocent parties.
|
|
|
Post by amelie on Aug 20, 2008 18:25:09 GMT -5
I love your POV Katie. About the way Derek sees John as a kid vs John as an adult... I agree.
|
|
|
Post by Derek Reese on Aug 21, 2008 0:22:29 GMT -5
Second that. It makes perfect sense in regards to things.
But one has to wonder if Derek has a back-up plan in the back of his mind if the situation dictates as such? Me, personally, I'd believe that in a heartbeat. He may have come in with a plan, that went to hell pretty quickly, but there's always plenty of room to make up a back-up plan if the situation dictates as such.
|
|
|
Post by amelie on Aug 21, 2008 10:24:14 GMT -5
What back up plan are you talking about ? I don't understand...
|
|
|
Post by allergygal on Aug 21, 2008 12:30:09 GMT -5
Even on my most anti-Derek days (dude, Andy Goode? You shot ANDY GOODE?!), I know he's not all bad. He does care about John, he does care about Kyle. The flip side of Derek (and what separates him from Sarah) is that he's willing to do anything to alter the future to protect them, especially Kyle. On one hand you can see how he could justify that - kill one or a dozen to save a billion (and also, not unlike a machine, kill anyone else who gets in the way of that mission). But he hasn't yet learned (as Sarah has) that the death of the person (or persons) most directly responsible for Skynet brings no guarantee that judgement day will be averted.
There's also the question of the value of human life. We know where Sarah and John stand - every life is important, not just mankind as a whole. But it's a question we've yet to see Derek struggle with, even when it came to killing his own close friend. Derek's in a dark place right now. He's T2 Sarah on the way to kill Dyson - ends justifying the means. And he's yet to find his humanity.
|
|
|
Post by vicheron on Aug 21, 2008 20:06:57 GMT -5
But Derek's been through a lot worse things than T2 Sarah. Sarah has only experienced the post Judgment Day world through Kyle and the Terminators but Derek has actually lived there. A world ruled by machines is a reality for Derek. Sarah may have fought Terminators but she's never experienced the kind of suffering that exists in the future. She's never seen the blasted landscape of the future. She's never seen people dying of radiation poisoning, starvation, thirst, and disease. She's never seen Skynet's death camps. She's never seen what Skynet does to its prisoners. Derek comes from a place where human lives have little to no value and he's not going to regain the values he has lost just by re-experiencing the world he knew when he was young.
|
|
|
Post by allergygal on Aug 22, 2008 2:17:57 GMT -5
Derek comes from a place where human lives have little to no value and he's not going to regain the values he has lost just by re-experiencing the world he knew when he was young. I couldn't disagree more. In the future Derek comes from, it's a fight for the survival of mankind. So I think human lives would have even more value. Every single person's life would be significant. In the first couple years after judgement day, I do think it would have been a lot of humans fighting each other for survival, but not once the resistance was organized. And Derek having fought probably his entire adult life so far in that war against machines, I'd expect him to value human life tremendously. My take on Derek is that he's acting out of a love for his brother. He lost him once to the machines when they were kids in the tunnels and he lost him again when John sent him back to protect Sarah. I think Derek wants so badly to undo all that that he's willing to do whatever it takes to retroactively take protect Kyle. He's trying desperately to prevent judgement day so Kyle won't have to grow up in that world taken over by machines. It seems selfless in a way, but it's also quite selfish. He killed Andy so maybe Kyle could live a better life. He traded one life for another. But it's not even just that. Derek appears to kill with great ease. Andy was his friend and it didn't bother him a bit to fire 2 shots into him. The cops in the tunnel were rendered unconscious, yet Derek was ready to execute them. When he shot Sarkissian's thug in the alley, he didn't seem to concern himself with traumatizing a little girl or with John's head being inches away from where he was firing. Derek is broken. Trauma from the war, obviously, and the struggle of life in general in a post-apocalyptic world. But that doesn't excuse him, it's only an explanation for why he's broken. He needs fixing. And whether Sarah and/or John help Derek find his way or he finds it on his own, he needs to find it - he needs to find his humanity.
|
|
|
Post by Derek Reese on Aug 22, 2008 2:20:53 GMT -5
Derek comes from a place where human lives have little to no value and he's not going to regain the values he has lost just by re-experiencing the world he knew when he was young. I couldn't disagree more. In the future Derek comes from, it's a fight for the survival of mankind. So I think human lives would have even more value. Every single person's life would be significant. In the first couple years after judgement day, I do think it would have been a lot of humans fighting each other for survival, but not once the resistance was organized. And Derek having fought against machines, I'd expect him to value human life tremendously. My take on Derek is that he's acting out of a love for his brother. He lost him once to the machines when they were kids in the tunnels and he lost him again when John sent him back to protect Sarah. I think Derek wants so badly to undo all that that he's willing to do whatever it takes to retroactively take protect Kyle. He's trying desperately to prevent judgement day so Kyle won't have to grow up in that world taken over by machines. It seems selfless in a way, but it's also quite selfish. He killed Andy so maybe Kyle could live a better life. He traded one life for another. But it's not even just that. Derek appears to kill with great ease. Andy was his friend and it didn't bother him a bit to fire 2 shots into him. The cops in the tunnel were rendered unconscious, yet Derek was ready to execute them. When he shot Sarkissian's thug in the alley, he didn't seem to concern himself with traumatizing a little girl or with John's head being inches away from where he was firing. Derek is broken. Trauma from the war, obviously, and the struggle of life in general in a post-apocalyptic world. But that doesn't excuse him, it's only an explanation for why he's broken. And he needs fixing. So whether Sarah and/or John help Derek find his way or he finds it on his own, he needs to find it - he needs to find his humanity. That's the way I see it as well.
|
|
|
Post by vicheron on Aug 22, 2008 3:29:52 GMT -5
Derek comes from a place where human lives have little to no value and he's not going to regain the values he has lost just by re-experiencing the world he knew when he was young. I couldn't disagree more. In the future Derek comes from, it's a fight for the survival of mankind. So I think human lives would have even more value. Every single person's life would be significant. In the first couple years after judgement day, I do think it would have been a lot of humans fighting each other for survival, but not once the resistance was organized. And Derek having fought probably his entire adult life so far in that war against machines, I'd expect him to value human life tremendously. My take on Derek is that he's acting out of a love for his brother. He lost him once to the machines when they were kids in the tunnels and he lost him again when John sent him back to protect Sarah. I think Derek wants so badly to undo all that that he's willing to do whatever it takes to retroactively take protect Kyle. He's trying desperately to prevent judgement day so Kyle won't have to grow up in that world taken over by machines. It seems selfless in a way, but it's also quite selfish. He killed Andy so maybe Kyle could live a better life. He traded one life for another. But it's not even just that. Derek appears to kill with great ease. Andy was his friend and it didn't bother him a bit to fire 2 shots into him. The cops in the tunnel were rendered unconscious, yet Derek was ready to execute them. When he shot Sarkissian's thug in the alley, he didn't seem to concern himself with traumatizing a little girl or with John's head being inches away from where he was firing. Derek is broken. Trauma from the war, obviously, and the struggle of life in general in a post-apocalyptic world. But that doesn't excuse him, it's only an explanation for why he's broken. He needs fixing. And whether Sarah and/or John help Derek find his way or he finds it on his own, he needs to find it - he needs to find his humanity. Just because the human race is on the verge of extinction doesn't make lives more valuable. That's not what determines the value of life. When someone has seen people die by the thousands from starvation, disease, and murderous machines, they get used to the sight of human suffering and death. The fact that humans may be on the brink doesn't change that. Derek comes from a world where the sacrifice of human lives is necessary for the survival of the species. The individual means nothing when compared to the needs of the human race. If they are to value human life in the same way we do today then they would never be able to take the kind of risks needed to fight the machines, where death is almost guaranteed. The fact that they're willing to use Terminators, despite the risk that they can turn at any minute, shows that they're willing to gamble with human lives.
|
|
rossbondreturns
Corporal
Summer 08 Wallpaper Challenge Winner!
Posts: 1,617
|
Post by rossbondreturns on Aug 22, 2008 4:39:47 GMT -5
I couldn't disagree more. In the future Derek comes from, it's a fight for the survival of mankind. So I think human lives would have even more value. Every single person's life would be significant. In the first couple years after judgement day, I do think it would have been a lot of humans fighting each other for survival, but not once the resistance was organized. And Derek having fought probably his entire adult life so far in that war against machines, I'd expect him to value human life tremendously. My take on Derek is that he's acting out of a love for his brother. He lost him once to the machines when they were kids in the tunnels and he lost him again when John sent him back to protect Sarah. I think Derek wants so badly to undo all that that he's willing to do whatever it takes to retroactively take protect Kyle. He's trying desperately to prevent judgement day so Kyle won't have to grow up in that world taken over by machines. It seems selfless in a way, but it's also quite selfish. He killed Andy so maybe Kyle could live a better life. He traded one life for another. But it's not even just that. Derek appears to kill with great ease. Andy was his friend and it didn't bother him a bit to fire 2 shots into him. The cops in the tunnel were rendered unconscious, yet Derek was ready to execute them. When he shot Sarkissian's thug in the alley, he didn't seem to concern himself with traumatizing a little girl or with John's head being inches away from where he was firing. Derek is broken. Trauma from the war, obviously, and the struggle of life in general in a post-apocalyptic world. But that doesn't excuse him, it's only an explanation for why he's broken. He needs fixing. And whether Sarah and/or John help Derek find his way or he finds it on his own, he needs to find it - he needs to find his humanity. Just because the human race is on the verge of extinction doesn't make lives more valuable. That's not what determines the value of life. When someone has seen people die by the thousands from starvation, disease, and murderous machines, they get used to the sight of human suffering and death. The fact that humans may be on the brink doesn't change that. Derek comes from a world where the sacrifice of human lives is necessary for the survival of the species. The individual means nothing when compared to the needs of the human race. If they are to value human life in the same way we do today then they would never be able to take the kind of risks needed to fight the machines, where death is almost guaranteed. The fact that they're willing to use Terminators, despite the risk that they can turn at any minute, shows that they're willing to gamble with human lives. I disagree the Individual means a lot in the Future War. As a soldier you trust individuals to form a cohesive unit. YOu don't want those you are fighting with to be like you twin or clones who don't care if they live or die. If a human looses all of humanity he looses the ability to feel a passion or anger to rise up against the Machines and to keep fighting on. If you don't have something to fight for other than everyone else then you loose focus on what's of key importance. That is not just about survival of humanity...but survival of self. The reason they are using Terminators Vicheron is because in this future time they are that desperate. There are more Machines then humans.
|
|
|
Post by vicheron on Aug 22, 2008 10:42:59 GMT -5
I never said that people no longer value human lives. I'm saying that they value the individual far less than the collective. This doesn't mean that the individual soldiers all have that mentality. Different people will have a different reason for fighting but the country they are fighting for will only have one reason or a set of reasons for fighting a particular conflict. Derek is someone who sees beyond his own reasons for fighting the machines. He's looking at the bigger picture, he's looking at why the human race is fighting Skynet.
Also, the very fact that desperation has driven the Resistance to using Terminators shows that their value system has changed. They are willing to make greater sacrifices because the consquences of failure is too great. The value of human lives is malleable. During times of war, people always take drastic steps to ensure victory, whether it be convicting alleged spies with almost no evidence or bombing civilian targets in an attempt to damage enemy morale. That's the kind of mentality that Derek has. The fact that even Derek opposed using Terminators shows that the Resistance is willing to take a great deal of risk in fighting the war. The Resistance does infinite resources, it will likely have to ignore the needs of the civilians in order to ensure the effectiveness of its fighting forces even if they could help more civilians than soldiers. Skynet will not make things easy for the Resistance and compassion is something that Skynet will likely exploit at every turn. If an HK has a couple of human shields strapped to it, is the Resistance willing to risk the extra forces needed to rescue them? The lower the human population is in the future, the more they have to take into account the cost/benefit ratio. Are they willing to risk 10 to 20 soldiers, along with all their experience and the gear they're carrying, to save 5 weak and sick civilian human shields or are they going to just blow that HK away?
|
|