t101
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Post by t101 on Mar 22, 2009 9:05:49 GMT -5
Someone has to remain dispassionate and objective about the machine and Sarah's taking that role on. I disagree. Sarah's lack of objectivity is why she misjudged Cameron. "I'm sorry I doubted you." "John..." "No. Not you. Her."John reestablished his emotional bond with his mother but he is not sorry for doubting her judgment because she does not understand Cameron. And it's Sarah's lack of objectivity that likely also salvaged John's bond with Cameron, not only he trusts her now, he trusts himself to know her better than anyone. That's not to say that Sarah's fears are baseless. Actually what Sarah most admired about Uncle Bob was his capacity to learn to understand humanity. Sarah's most complimentary speech about the terminator comes at the end of the movie. In fact by James Cameron's own design Sarah regains her humanity thought the transformation of the terminator. It certainly makes it more than just an object. Likewise Cameron has the capacity for a lot of things. "The unknown future rolls towards us. I face it for the first time with a sense of hope. Because if a machine, a terminator, can learn the value of human life, maybe we can too."
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schmacky
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Post by schmacky on Mar 22, 2009 13:44:43 GMT -5
Actually what Sarah most admired about Uncle Bob was his capacity to learn to understand humanity. Sarah's most complimentary speech about the terminator comes at the end of the movie. In fact by James Cameron's own design Sarah regains her humanity thought the transformation of the terminator. It certainly makes it more than just an object. Likewise Cameron has the capacity for a lot of things. "The unknown future rolls towards us. I face it for the first time with a sense of hope. Because if a machine, a terminator, can learn the value of human life, maybe we can too."Don't forget that Cameron destroyed any warm-fuzzy feelings Sarah ever had about Terminators. Sarah came to respect Uncle Bob, even admired him for his ability to value human life. But Cameron? Cameron tried to kill her son. I don't think Sarah would have had the same monologue about would-be fathers if Uncle Bob had tried to kill her son once. The whole glitch situation is a fundamental issue for Sarah and her distrust for Cameron. I don't believe Cameron will ever be completely trustworthy in Sarah's eyes like Uncle Bob was. That chance is long gone. She proved herself to be untrustworthy and Sarah isn't going to take that lightly. When Sarah made her monologues about would-be fathers and how machines can value human life... she didn't know they could go bad like that. She just knew that John could reprogram them and that was it. But, now she knows better. Now, she knows they're not completely trustworthy. Now she knows that at any time they could go "bad." If she knew then what she knows now, I don't think she would have said the same things.
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t101
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Post by t101 on Mar 22, 2009 14:17:24 GMT -5
Don't forget that Cameron destroyed any warm-fuzzy feelings Sarah ever had about Terminators. Sarah came to respect Uncle Bob, even admired him for his ability to value human life. But Cameron? Cameron tried to kill her son. I don't think Sarah would have had the same monologue about would-be fathers if Uncle Bob had tried to kill her son once. The whole glitch situation is a fundamental issue for Sarah and her distrust for Cameron. I don't believe Cameron will ever be completely trustworthy in Sarah's eyes like Uncle Bob was. That chance is long gone. She proved herself to be untrustworthy and Sarah isn't going to take that lightly. When Sarah made her monologues about would-be fathers and how machines can value human life... she didn't know they could go bad like that. She just knew that John could reprogram them and that was it. But, now she knows better. Now, she knows they're not completely trustworthy. Now she knows that at any time they could go "bad." If she knew then what she knows now, I don't think she would have said the same things. I think you've misunderstood then. Like I said above Sarah's fears are not baseless. I'm not berating Sarah's trust issues with Cameron. I'm answering to "Cameron is just an object" thing. Sarah knows there is more to it through personally experiencing what this intelligence is capable of.
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schmacky
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Post by schmacky on Mar 22, 2009 14:21:27 GMT -5
I think you've misunderstood then. Like I said above Sarah's fears are not baseless. I'm not berating Sarah's trust issues with Cameron. I'm answering to "Cameron is just an object" thing. Sarah knows there is more to it through personally experiencing what this intelligence is capable of. Right. But I don't think she'll ever trust them like she did with Uncle Bob. Cameron, or any other reprogrammed Terminator.
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t101
Major
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Post by t101 on Mar 22, 2009 15:34:09 GMT -5
Ironic enough in Sarah's speech about Uncle Bob this unpredictability is exactly why she has trouble trusting humans.
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Post by littleb on Mar 22, 2009 16:55:19 GMT -5
Actually what Sarah most admired about Uncle Bob was his capacity to learn to understand humanity. Sarah's most complimentary speech about the terminator comes at the end of the movie. In fact by James Cameron's own design Sarah regains her humanity thought the transformation of the terminator. It certainly makes it more than just an object. Likewise Cameron has the capacity for a lot of things. The machines may have the capacity to understand humanity, but they don't have the ability to actually be human. In T2, Sarah came awfully close to losing her humanity, she became the terminator when she went to Dyson's house - she even got the terminator music backing her. She stopped herself though, the machine wasn't even there. She realised how close she had come to being that inhuman and she pulled herself back from the brink. Don't forget that Cameron destroyed any warm-fuzzy feelings Sarah ever had about Terminators. Sarah came to respect Uncle Bob, even admired him for his ability to value human life. But Cameron? Cameron tried to kill her son. Yeah, it kinda always comes back to that. There's always the chance that could happen again. I don't care how much ballet dancing, pancake eating, or bird hugging Cameron does, there's still always that chance she can flip out and go on a spree. Starting with John. I like the glitch thing. It makes it all so much more tenuous. The perfect father terminator aspect of T2 was all a little too happy-clappy for me. I like that they can go bad without warning or reason. Casting the terminator as protector was a great idea, but I prefer TSCC's take on it, because it gives it so much more of an edge. Cameron's always had ulterior motives and secrets throughout the show and it's all built up to make Sarah incredibly and justifiably wary. The closing T2 monologue was also a commentary on man's inhumanity to man - something that the show has touched on a number of times. I like that line from Derek in TTDII, the line about waiting for John to be "human." I'm not sure what it implies about Future!John, whether he's spent so much time with metal he has himself lost his humanity, but I loved that they then followed that up with the final scene where John is incredibly human, crying on his mum's lap. I don't care what Cameron said to Sarah about them jumping over her death because she was the best fighter John knew. I think Future!John knew that sometimes he'd just need his mum's lap to cry on.
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Post by vicheron on Mar 22, 2009 19:31:45 GMT -5
Sarah liked Uncle Bob because he was dependable and followed orders. She liked his machine qualities. She even said that Uncle Bob would never get drunk or hit John like a human father would. Uncle Bob was just like the Terminator from T1 except that all the qualities that made the T1 Terminator the perfect killing machine just happened to make Uncle Bob the perfect protectors. Like the Terminator in T1, Uncle Bob can't be reasoned with. He can't be bargained with. He doesn't feel fear, or pain, or pity. He will not stop as long as he has a mission. He will protect John Connor at all costs.
The problem with Cameron is that she's too human. She doesn't follow orders. She's not dependable. They don't know what her mission is. The worst thing is that they aren't sure of her loyalties so there is a chance that the enemy might be able to get her to turn.
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Mar 22, 2009 23:59:51 GMT -5
Exactly.
Remember in the mousetrap, when Sarah ordered Cameron not to kill that bird? Remember in Ourselves Alone where Cameron, trying to follow orders, tries to release the bird and crushes it instead?
That in a nutshell is Sarah's fear - that Cameron may not be able to control herself. And Sarah's entirely right to be afraid. As long as Sarah believe that Cameron was an Uncle Bob automaton, it was fine. Cameron was a weapon she would use.
But Cameron's proven unreliable and untrustworthy. In a way, it reminds me of Queeg, who was programmed to stand down when removed by the human XO but doesn't because that program has been overridden by a direct order from John Connor. Cameron kept the chip but when John was out with Derek, Cameron obeyed Sarah and stayed in the house.
It remains to be seen what would happen if Sarah ordered Cameron not to kill someone? Sarah now knows that Cameron has an agenda but I wonder if she has ever thought out Cameron's behaviour pattern. Cameron's been less obedient this season but Sarah's been less direct. What would have happened if Sarah had ordered Cameron to stop at the bowling alley, I wonder?
Does Sarah wonder about that also?
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Post by littleb on Mar 23, 2009 6:57:12 GMT -5
That in a nutshell is Sarah's fear - that Cameron may not be able to control herself. And Sarah's entirely right to be afraid. As long as Sarah believe that Cameron was an Uncle Bob automaton, it was fine. Cameron was a weapon she would use. Right up to Mr Ferguson, Sarah was still thinking of Cameron in those terms; "got a weapon." Now she's probably more along the lines of "got a weapon... need to take the damn bullets out of it..." I'm sure she does. I'm sure she's been wondering that since Gnothi Seauton when Cameron made it quite clear, she's got orders that supersede any that Sarah or Sarah's John might give her: Sarah: Were you gonna kill that cop? Don't answer that. Don't wanna know. We need rules. Aren't you supposed to take orders or something like that?
Cameron: I do. From John.
Sarah: From John. So if I tell John to forbid you...
Cameron: Not this John.
Sarah: Not this John. Aren't they the same?
Cameron: Not yet.I'm guessing that's not been helping with the sleepless nights any. Add that to the evidence against Cameron that Sarah's stacked up recently and it's pointing towards Cameron being a problem rather than an asset. And Sarah hasn't even mentioned the twitching yet - she's aware that Cameron is carrying out her own missions on the sly, but the fact that Cameron's malfunctioning hasn't explicitly been addressed. Having said that, if it all kicks off imminently, Cameron will probably prove her worth again as a weapon. This little band of fighters is ever-decreasing at the moment and they all need to be singing off the same hymn-sheet. Apologies for any metaphor mangling there...
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echoplex
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A.K.A TentoTwenty
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Post by echoplex on Mar 24, 2009 9:35:16 GMT -5
Hey guys new here been following this conversation here. In every movie that we have seen Terminators always take orders from from the ones they are sent to protect. In T2 Uncle Bob had to take orders from young John. In T3 the Terminator took orders from Catherine Brewster, maybe Cameron was programmed to take orders from Sarah. Just a thought. She seems to not take orders well from anyone else, but always takes orders from Sarah. A good example was last season when John wanted to help the girl from jumping and she refused, and an a even better example was this week's ep in which Sarah told to her stay.
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Mar 24, 2009 20:55:39 GMT -5
From the "To the Lighthouse" thread... I know quite a few soldiers who have been in battle and firefights and never killed anyone. Does that make 'em bad soldiers? I dunno. Does that make Sarah a bad soldier for not killing anyone when a soldier's job is to kill? I don't know. Maybe she shot all her enemies in the kneecaps. Yes but they have been in battles and firefights, which is actually the point I was getting after re: Sarah in the jungle, sorry if that was unclear. I believe in a distinction between killing and murder, and in my mind, Sarah wasn't lucky enough to have lived the places she lived, did the things that she did, with the people she did them with, all while caring for a child and never find herself in a situation where she had to take a life. But Josh Friedman had a different opinion and he's the writer, so that's that. Even so, I don't find the idea that all Sarah did in Central America was hang around camps and learn to fire guns particularly believable. Others mileage obviously varies. ;D Welcome Echoplex! I've thought the same thing myself. Last season I was convinced that Cameron was programmed to obey Sarah so long as Sarah's orders didn't conflict with a previous order from Future!John (like harvesting spare parts). Now I'm not so sure but TSCC has certainly built a lot of ambiguity into Cameron's back story. OTOH the idea that John would send Cameron back programmed to obey Sarah's orders within a certain set of parameters without revealing that fact to Sarah seems more overwrought than plausible.
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Post by aceplace57 on Mar 24, 2009 22:58:47 GMT -5
I think the writers are splitting hairs about Sarah killing anyone.
I can see her in a group on patrol and they get ambushed. Bullets flying everywhere from both sides. When it's all over, they find three dead guys in the bushes. Who shot them? No one knows for sure. It's a cop out, but in Sarah's mind her hands are clean.
I've heard the CIA trained a lot of the rebel forces in South America (President Reagan and his beloved Contras are one example). With dark hair and a heavy tan Sarah could blend in with the rebel forces. She'd be smart enough not to interact with the instructors any more than necessary.
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Post by allergygal on Mar 25, 2009 0:43:39 GMT -5
Neither the T2 nor the series have ever said Sarah spent time in military combat. All we know is that she spent time in central America learning from paramilitary people. That does not necessitate that she fought in battle.
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schmacky
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Post by schmacky on Mar 25, 2009 0:59:43 GMT -5
Neither the T2 nor the series have ever said Sarah spent time in military combat. All we know is that she spent time in central America learning from paramilitary people. That does not necessitate that she fought in battle. That's what I'm sayin. Where would lil Johnny boy be if she was out fightin' battles? Hiding in the bushes? hehe For whatever reason, I always thought of Sarah bein' all nomadic, livin' in these villages and travelin' with these guys, learning from them.. training with them, etc. But, not fighting with them.
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Post by allergygal on Mar 25, 2009 1:24:00 GMT -5
That's what I'm sayin. Where would lil Johnny boy be if she was out fightin' battles? Hiding in the bushes? hehe For whatever reason, I always thought of Sarah bein' all nomadic, livin' in these villages and travelin' with these guys, learning from them.. training with them, etc. But, not fighting with them. About John - YES. I can't see Sarah going off to fight someone else's battles when she had her own ahead of her. But making it even more unlikely is that she had John's safety to think about. Anyway, who the hell cares about Sandinistas or Contras when the end of the world is coming and you've got the savior of the human race to protect? I agree with the nomadic life too. I've always thought they moved around a lot during the time between T1 and T2, spending time in Oaxaca with Enrique, Dejalo, Nicaragua, etc. Sarah would meet someone, learn from them and move along. But I did like to think Enrique was her one trusted friend through the years. I imagined he was the first person she met and that he'd probably introduced her to the whole gun-running, off-the-grid life.
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