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Post by allergygal on Apr 6, 2008 18:01:54 GMT -5
1) I should be more careful about using the shipper slash between names. 2) If I want to get my husband's attention I may have to start wearing arm warmers.
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Post by ReeseDN38416 on Apr 6, 2008 20:17:43 GMT -5
I think it would be weirder if Sarah were really nice to Cameron. Sarah has always been a bit of a b*tch when it comes to Terminators. It reminds me of Derek's joke in the finale. When he's complaining about the guys staying behind. John says that one of the "girls" is harder than nuclear nails" and Derek jokes that the other is a Terminator. LOL! Perfect.
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t101
Major
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Post by t101 on Apr 7, 2008 4:22:03 GMT -5
Ok... ;D First let me say the scene doesn't show Sarah freeze up or have a lost expression on her face or anything that definitively shows she lost it. It's just something people made up based of their own perceptions. In your case, it's like you say you want it to be impossible for anyone to think that, ever, not that you think it or the scene shows it. I think anyone who's ever been a fan has a character they want to be seen a certain way.
Speaking of Cameron. Ignoring the snark, Sarah probably sees Cameron in the most objective light. Aside from lashing out at her occasionally, Sarah does listen to her like in Heavy Metal. But perhaps she doesn't deal with her the best way. I don't really want John to become more like Sarah though, because there needs to be someone in the cast who wants to connect with Cameron.
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UA
Refugee
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Post by UA on Apr 7, 2008 6:18:59 GMT -5
I also completely reject the idea that evolving Sarah of 2008 from the ranting, half-crazed Sarah of 1995/7 who emptied a clip in Miles Dyson's direction represents a softening or a walking back of the character. I agree. Even within the confines of T2, Sarah changes. She doesn't finish the film in the same place she started it, not by a long shot. She has such strength of character that she manages to put ten years of anguish and "crazy talk" aside at the crucial moment and does not pull the trigger when looking Miles Dyson in the eye. (Just lucky she missed before.) And a point for you for comparing Derek to Garak. (Naming coincidence, even?) I like him more already just knowing that he has that kind of thinking behind the writing of his character.
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Post by allergygal on Apr 7, 2008 12:44:53 GMT -5
And have I really become this big of a nerd? can foreign nationals plead the 5th? I think I have my answer. I love the level on which Sarah and Cameron have the mother/daughter relationship from hell but it does make Sarah look like a bitch. Then again, it is the new black. ;D So maybe the worst times are when Sarah's bitchy towards Cameron while wearing black. Probably the harshest Sarah was to Cameron was that scene in the garage where she told her to stay away from Charley and to destroy every last bolt of the T-888. And Cameron was all "I totally swear mom, like what do you think I am, a liar? Get off my case already." And then she pockets the chip. Later, though, when Sarah finds out about the chip, she really doesn't even get mad, she just seems disappointed in her, like a typical mother of a typical teenage daughter (it wasn't just my mom that was always "disappointed" was it?). One of the fun things about the Sarah/Cameron dynamic is how every time Sarah is emotional, Cameron is just so flat and logical in contrast. "Go to hell!" "They would have found you anyway." "I don't even remember what my name is." "Sarah Connor." "It doesn't bother you that he's dead, does it?" "The world's safer without him." "...or so help me I'll find a way of taking you apart piece by piece." "I swear." "That's because you don't value human life." "But she's not life, just bones and meat." -- EDIT: Almost forgot to obsess today, so let me backtrack a bit. I watched What He Beheld again last night and I think Derek's "pure heart" comment only adds to the problem of the alley scene. Saying it the day after and saying it with the sort of laugh that he did, suggests he drew his conclusion from the fact that Sarah didn't shoot the guy in the alley. I think he assumes that if she wouldn't shoot a guy who had a gun to John's head, she's obviously never killed anyone.
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Post by miniglik on Apr 7, 2008 13:43:41 GMT -5
I agree that he's decided Sarah hasn't/won't kill anyone. (Whether that's true or not.) He didn't see her in her T2 days and he really doesn't know her very well. Which brings up the fact that his opinion is highly suspect and entirely unreliable. I highly doubt that Derek's voice is the one the audience is supposed to relate to. (In fact, I suspect in the next few episodes he would have decided to go off on his own to get some more killing done, and it would have drawn the problem for Sarah out even more: does she let him? Does she stop him? Etc. I can't imagine the obedience to Sarah would have continued much longer if he thinks she's unwilling to do what he believes needs to be done, and I tend to think the detail that he hadn't been seen in awhile at the end of "What He Beheld" was important.)
However, again, his is not the voice of the show. He's been shown as a liar, a manipulator, and, well, craaazy. True, in fiction, the Crazy Killer Guy often speaks emotional truth in a Moment of Irony, but I don't think this was one of those scenes either. (For one, the fact that John never responds to it nor does he have a look of "oh, profound words, wise uncle.") I think it was actually Derek's goodbye to John.
So, on that tangent: I think -- along with some possibly incorrect assumptions about Sarah -- he'd also correctly decided Sarah was too good of a person to murder a bunch of people in the name of stopping Skynet. (Which she is! Sure, she's probably have found a way to kill Fake!Sarkissian if necessary, but she would not have murdered Andy.) But he's not, so he was explaining (subtly, in a way that would become obvious to John once Derek left) to John that he had to get going on what he felt needed to be done. I also think Derek was explaining that if he waited any longer he'd be lulled by living the nonapocalyptic life into softening his position. I think that whole speech of his had less to do with Sarah and more with him explaining to John why he was going to leave. And then, the goodbye/birthday gift of seeing Kyle.
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Post by allergygal on Apr 7, 2008 17:51:24 GMT -5
I suspect in the next few episodes he would have decided to go off on his own to get some more killing done, and it would have drawn the problem for Sarah out even more: does she let him? Does she stop him? Etc. I can't imagine the obedience to Sarah would have continued much longer if he thinks she's unwilling to do what he believes needs to be done, and I tend to think the detail that he hadn't been seen in awhile at the end of "What He Beheld" was important.) I think -- along with some possibly incorrect assumptions about Sarah -- he'd also correctly decided Sarah was too good of a person to murder a bunch of people in the name of stopping Skynet. (Which she is! Sure, she's probably have found a way to kill Fake!Sarkissian if necessary, but she would not have murdered Andy.) But he's not, so he was explaining (subtly, in a way that would become obvious to John once Derek left) to John that he had to get going on what he felt needed to be done. I also think Derek was explaining that if he waited any longer he'd be lulled by living the nonapocalyptic life into softening his position. I think that whole speech of his had less to do with Sarah and more with him explaining to John why he was going to leave. And then, the goodbye/birthday gift of seeing Kyle. That's exactly what I expect to happen at the beginning of season 2. I suspect Derek might not come back from the park, given that he knows Sara's pissed at him about killing people and him thinking the Sarakissian threat is gone. So he had a nice day with John and then he'll be off to finish what he started -- track own the rest of Andy's computer group and off them one by one. That comment Sarah made in Vick's Chip about how Barbara's name was in those papers and why do they always find out about people when it's too late, leads me to believe she's going to be more determined to track people down before they end up dead. Should make for good conflict if she's out there trying to track down the same people Derek's trying to kill. And I agree that John will figure out what Derek's up to based on what he said at the park ("you realize you'll do whatever it takes to keep from watching it burn again"), just like he figured out his mom went to kill Dyson in T2 from her "no fate" note carve into the picnic table. Yeah, Sarah would have never murdered Andy. After the Dyson incident, there's no way she'd ever kill someone because it might prevent Skynet. And especially not someone as nice as Andy I don't think Derek is going to kill people because he thinks Sarah's too good to do it. I think, based on his comment to John at the park and his "we can fix everything" comment to his buddies before they jumped, that this is his personal mission. According to Cameron, future!John said Sarah was the best fighter and that's why they jumped to 2007 -- so Sarah could fight Skynet. If John thought his mom wasn't capable of doing it the way it needed to be done, why would he have told Cameron to jump them? So whatever methods Sarah uses to get the job done (which so far appear to be non-killing), must be the best way to do it in John's eyes.
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Post by miniglik on Apr 7, 2008 18:37:06 GMT -5
I didn't mean it that way. I think he wasn't going to comply with her anymore because Sarah's too morally good to do what he thinks needs to be done. I mean, sure, if he'd gone into the past and found out she was onboard with (or not opposed to) his agenda I'm sure he'd have stuck around as a subordinate. Because he definitely seems to respect her authority (up to a point). I don't really think she had to earn any "I'm willing to kill" points to be considered tough and capable by anyone from the future.
I'm sure he thinks his mother is capable. But I don't really know WHAT methods he prefers, because future John put Sarah, Cameron, AND Derek in that place at that time and they have wildly different methods. (And, concievably, he knows all of them well.) I think they're just all the toughest people/things he knows.
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Post by allergygal on May 2, 2008 23:47:26 GMT -5
Is TSCC dumbing down Sarah Connor? They threw us the obsessive reading about nuclear scientists morsel at the beginning of "The Turk", but so far we haven't seen much brain power out of her. It seems they save it all for John, thinking you can't have a smart mom and a smarter son, you have to have a smart son and a not-so-smart mom...
Mom can't you track down Enrique to get IDs? Mom, the combination to the safe is date of judgement day. Mom, you computer illiterate idiot, "a rack of computer equipment" is no kind of description, what about network access, bandwidth and horsepower? Mom, let me explain the singularity to you. Mom, covalent and ionic bonding isn't that hard to understand. Mom, Cromartie's damaged, so we can take him down. Mom, that coltan will make lots of enemy soldiers. Mom, we can use my cell phone as a tracking device. Mom, you don't know the first thing about chess. Mom, I hacked into the LAPD computers. Mom, duh, it's not about traffic. Mom, we could plant a virus. Mom, we can hook into a single traffic light with Cameron's chip. Mom, go make some pancakes or something, I'm busy decrypting files. Mom, that guy wasn't Sarkissian. Mom, I have no clue why I even had Cameron time jump you to 2007.
Okay, I made that last one up, but the trend seems to be John as the brains and Sarah as the brawn of their operations. To some extent that's okay because she's had more combat training and he needs to develop his leadership. But Sarah Connor's no dummy. She was a college student, she's learned 4 languages, assimilated into other cultures, learned extensively about weapons, explosives and combat, taught John how to hack an ATM, read books on nuclear scientists and the development of the atomic bomb... So let the woman hatch a darn plan once in a while next season so we can see where John's brains came from.
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k8ie
Corporal
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Post by k8ie on May 3, 2008 18:55:14 GMT -5
ITA, especially about T2. This post actually brings up something that was niggling at me about "The Turk."
As far as computers go, I don't have a problem with Sarah not being up to date on the tech - between the nuthatch, two years of retirement and an eight-year time jump, the last time she saw a copy of Wired was probably 1994 (I imagine that the mental hospital let her read books but probably kept the schizophrenic with the delusions about killer machines from the future away from the computer magazines). But if that's the case, it would be nice if someone actually mentioned that it's been awhile since Sarah's taken a long look at what's going on in the computer world and is now playing a massive game of catch-up. And while we're at it, maybe John's apparent ease at bridging an eight-year gap in his knowledge of computer programming and hacking could be addressed as well.
I'm a pretty smart viewer and I don't like it when TV or movies assume I need to have everything spelled out for me. At the same time, it's the story's job to lead me. There's work as a viewer that I'm willing to do - interpreting Lena Headey's body language in a scene to understand that Sarah feels vulnerable talking to Derek about Kyle, for example. As the saying goes, when writing, never tell someone what you can show them.
But that's not always going to work. There was more than once in the first season where I felt like I had to work too hard as a viewer the stuff with Sarah and John and computers being one of those places.
Damn straight. Karma for that!
At the same time, I get a kick out of the idea that Sarah's been directing John's education like a Hapsburg Empress, sending the kid out to be schooled by the grand masters of the age but it would be nice to actually be shown that John's smarts didn't fall so far from the apple tree as it were. I find Lena Headey a fascinating actor to watch - there's always a fierce light shining in her eyes. I'd like to see more of that in TSCC this season.
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Post by allergygal on May 3, 2008 19:28:31 GMT -5
ITA, especially about T2. This post actually brings up something that was niggling at me about "The Turk." As far as computers go, I don't have a problem with Sarah not being up to date on the tech - between the nuthatch, two years of retirement and an eight-year time jump, the last time she saw a copy of Wired was probably 1994 (I imagine that the mental hospital let her read books but probably kept the schizophrenic with the delusions about killer machines from the future away from the computer magazines). But if that's the case, it would be nice if someone actually mentioned that it's been awhile since Sarah's taken a long look at what's going on in the computer world and is now playing a massive game of catch-up. And while we're at it, maybe John's apparent ease at bridging an eight-year gap in his knowledge of computer programming and hacking could be addressed as well. I'm a pretty smart viewer and I don't like it when TV or movies assume I need to have everything spelled out for me. At the same time, it's the story's job to lead me. There's work as a viewer that I'm willing to do - interpreting Lena Headey's body language in a scene to understand that Sarah feels vulnerable talking to Derek about Kyle, for example. As the saying goes, when writing, never tell someone what you can show them. But that's not always going to work. There was more than once in the first season where I felt like I had to work too hard as a viewer the stuff with Sarah and John and computers being one of those places. Yes. This whole thing started building with me during that scene between John and Sarah in The Turk. I dismissed it as just a poorly executed scene at the time, but by seasons' end, I'd noticed a trend in John being super smart and Sarah being, uh, not. And yeah, it's okay for him to excel in computers while she still lags since that's his thing and he's younger and more adaptable. But even so, he went from "Clear the browser history? What's that?" to "I need a drive with a 1.4 TB/s video throughput so I can hack this processor from the future" with no explanation. Karma right back atchya since it was your post elsewhere that got me going on this little rant I'd been saving for a rainy day. I'm now wondering if I have any rants left. I'll have to check my rant schedule.
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k8ie
Corporal
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Post by k8ie on May 3, 2008 20:05:28 GMT -5
By seasons' end, I'd noticed a trend in John being super smart and Sarah being, uh, not. Yeah, uncool, as the man would say (the man being Stephen King, since I'm currently reading his book On Writing), uncool. I wish I had something more constructive to add to the conversation than "right on, you tell'em." On one hand, I don't want to constantly nit-pick because there was so much I thought the show did right with Sarah and, seriously, negativity is no fun. On the other hand, I think that Sarah's character development was short-changed: there was an awful lot of telling about how smart Sarah was and how tough Sarah was and not enough seeing it. Tremble before me, oh Gods of the Internets, for thou hast messed with childhood idols! Despair of my rage at the indignities heaped upon my favourite character! For I type 90 wpm and scored 1450 on my SATs! Or something like that. ;D
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Post by theturk on May 4, 2008 15:38:18 GMT -5
You folks seriously don't want Sarah to be Captain Janeway, do you? The leader who knows as much or more about every subject than her subordinates? Because man, that character was just deadly to watch.
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rossbondreturns
Corporal
Summer 08 Wallpaper Challenge Winner!
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Post by rossbondreturns on May 4, 2008 16:44:46 GMT -5
You folks seriously don't want Sarah to be Captain Janeway, do you? The leader who knows as much or more about every subject than her subordinates? Because man, that character was just deadly to watch. Indeed- I'd hazard a guess that they will be seen more as equals this season. One must also remember that although the show is called the Sarah Connor Chronicles...it really is about John becoming a leader rather than Sarah becoming a totall dominating ass kicker.
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k8ie
Corporal
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Post by k8ie on May 4, 2008 18:57:34 GMT -5
You folks seriously don't want Sarah to be Captain Janeway, do you? The leader who knows as much or more about every subject than her subordinates? Because man, that character was just deadly to watch. I think there's a happy medium between Janeway and Sarah getting stuck with the Idiot Ball in a scene where Sarah should have had a clue, where the character's backstory leads me to expect her to have a clue, and instead she comes across as clueless. It's also a bit contradictory isn't it? I mean, if I were hunting wolves, I'd a least make sure I knew what a wolf looked like and where to find them. I'd bring a wildlife biologist along to provide expert advice but I wouldn't walk into the woods with a loaded rifle and the biologist, and then wait until the biologist pointed one out for me to know what furry animal I should be aiming for, right? Also - Janeway? Seriously? Voyager is your go-to bad here? These are our options? Jeez... it's like being asked to choose between cake or death. If I have to choose between Janeway and Sarah of course I pick Sarah but I don't stick my hands in pans of boiling water, either. I'd disagree with you on that Ross - call me crazy but I think shows named after people should be primarily about that character - The Rockford Files were about Rockford, Veronica Mars about Veronica Mars, Buffy about Buffy, Angel about Angel, etcetera and so on. John's journey is important but I really don't actually care that much. I'm far more interested in Sarah - stories about how young men are shaped into great leaders are a dime a dozen and I've already read The Sword in the Stone and I read the scifi version when it was called Dune. Stories about the Igraines and Lady Jessicas and Sarah Connors are far fewer on the ground and that's what interests me about TSCC and what I'm tuning in for each week.
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