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Post by littleb on Jan 8, 2009 21:26:09 GMT -5
They part ways and that's that. So where in this scene is everyone else getting that Ellison wanted to help and Sarah told him to get lost? I don't think Sarah had the energy or the inclination to tell him to get lost. She laid out the facts as they were and was too preoccupied to really deal with any/all Ellison's issues. I don't think her sharp, short answers were her being mean, I think they were her being exhausted. I still read the "you want me to leave" line as him feeling shut out, maybe it was unintentional from a direction POV but the way the line is delivered, he sounds kinda surprised and a little miffed. I'm not sure that was Sarah's intention, I just don't think she was up to giving it that much thought. Ellison is a bit of an enigma now. His actions since Mr Ferguson have been bizarre and ill-thought out. The wheels that are being set into motion - primarily starting with him handing over Cromartie - are bigger than him, bigger than just one man but he still wants to view them in terms of where he fits in. It just feels wrong, all his priorities are backwards. He wants to stop the apocalypse but he wants it to be Him doing the stopping. I think it's the language he's using, the "it's down to us now" type phrases. I'm not sure whether we are supposed to see that end scene as the turning point, but something made him go back, dig that body up and hand it over to Weaver - in direct opposition to what Sarah had told him. Maybe he just doesn't trust Sarah to do the job properly...? |
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Post by potomac79 on Jan 9, 2009 2:50:31 GMT -5
While I can sort of see what AG is getting at, honestly, it sounded to me like Sarah was blowing Ellison off. "You want me to leave"...(but I want to stay). "This is it. There's nothing else behind the curtain. This is what I do, it's all I do. You already know why I do it. I'm sorry for what you lost, but I can't help you get any of it back."...(so stop being a whining pest and go home).
Sarah is strongly in a mindset of not wanting her little squad to get larger, so it's no surprise she wants Ellison to go away. On the other hand, James could have said something like, "A friend in the FBI could be useful; I'd like to help." An overt offer like that would likely have swayed pragmatic Sarah.
This is one of those life-cusp moments. If you turn left, you meet the love of your life and live happily ever after; you turn right, you slip on a banana peel into a vat of butterscotch pudding and it becomes the biggest hit ever on YouTube. I think Ellison was wanting Sarah to do something, anything to sway him over to the side of the good fight. He needs to be needed. Instead she offers indifference...not even a thank you for coming down to help John.
So...he had a choice with this turtle of a decision: turn it over and place it out of harm's way, or drive over it and crush it. Ellison went all petulant and chose the latter. Even though he knew he'd be found out, he decided to muck with Sarah's plan out of spite.
That's really the only explanation. The idea that he was taking the endoskeleton to Catherine to take apart and destroy carries little weight as Sarah already said that she was going to destroy it. No, Ellison's goal is not the destruction of Cromartie. He could be forgiven if he was simply overzealous. But zealotry isn't his weakness. You see, his sin is pride. He rode in on a white stallion to save the day and was treated little better than a servant for his trouble. That wouldn't do for the great James Ellison.
(Still, nothing a few more rounds with Cameron wouldn't fix. She's pretty confident that she can get people to tell her the truth, if only people would let her.)
Delivering Cromartie was a very calculated move. But when he discovered that Catherine had lied to him, Ellison still came back. Why? Again, pride. He can't admit to his own failure to choose the correct path so he convinces himself that the path he is on has to be righteous...because it's the one he chose. He knows Sarah's story (he's seen the tapes). He knows that what she, and presumably Kyle, said before the cameras was true, and yet he chooses to not make any extra effort to try to connect with them. And for what? The few pieces of silver Catherine is offering?
So, based on the "Ferguson" exchange, I do think that Ellison felt he was wronged. While Sarah made a mistake in not trying to acquire an ally, her bone fides on the whole terminator/jd subject should have merited more respect in his eyes. Ellison seems to think that just because he's now a believer that he's now an equal...that darned pride thing, again. He was hunted for all of five seconds before Cromartie saved him. He hasn't had to defeat a determined robot (scary, very scary, or otherwise) that's on the hunt. He hasn't had to prepare for a very real, non-mythological apocalypse. Ellison has no cred with the Connors. The burden for choosing the right side was his. The decision to leave the destruction of Cromartie to the Connors was his. He chose poorly.
He's the tragic figure of our little morality play. Catherine came to him. Sarah would make him beg. Clearly he's a bigger man in Catherine's eyes than Sarah's. Ego. Pride. Every choice is the right choice if you are the one making it. As Milton wrote: "Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven."
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k8ie
Corporal
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Post by k8ie on Jan 10, 2009 16:42:35 GMT -5
When I watch that scene, I don't see a man eager to join the Connors in fighting robots. I see a man looking for meaning in his life and Sarah doesn't have the kind of answers he's looking for. Why must these two things be mutually exclusive? Just because Ellison wants answers doesn't mean that he doesn't want to help kill bad robots. It's pretty clear to me that Ellison goes to work for Weaver precisely because he believes that she can help him kill bad robots where Sarah either can't or won't. The way I see it, when Ellison asks Sarah what's next, he's expecting an answer that involves him not excludes him. Instead Sarah's answer and the way she gives it is telling him to back off. He's clearly not part of the "we". Yes, Sarah doesn't have the precise answers Ellison wants but Mr. FBI expected that Sarah Connor would welcome his help, which is why he points out that John's name is going to be on an alert. It's a way of highlighting what his connections can help her with but Sarah rebuffs him again: ELLISON: (about John) His name's going to be on an alert. SARAH: He's got other names. ELLISON: Then what? SARAH: There is no 'then what'. Pretend I died again. "Pretend I died again" - if that's not telling Ellison he's not wanted on the voyage, what is it? Ellison can't ask to help because some invitations must be given and not requested. The scene is all about what's not said, about perceptions and expectations. People have called the meeting between Ellison and Sarah anti-climatic, because that's precisely what it is for the characters. For Ellison particularly, Sarah Connor has been something of a touchstone since he found the terminator hand. She was the one who could put it all together for him. She saved his life and Ellison had reason to believe (based on his experiences as a cop) that would mean something to Sarah, that she would accept his gratitude and by extension his help as a good faith gesture of thanks. That Sarah's not particularly impressed by either takes the wind out of his sails. Add to that Ellison witnesses Sarah's breakdown as she smashes Cromartie's chip. The last sight Ellison has of Sarah is of a woman pushed to her breaking point. Ellison knows Sarah principally through the records of her time in Pescadero, when she was drugged, trapped, emotionally abused and out-of-control. The Sarah Connor he knows bets is a paranoid schizophrenic murderer. Sarah Connor as an agent of Revelation, some sort of hero/avenger from his meeting with Silberman, from when Sarah saves his life, is more fragile and easily displaced. Ellison still doesn't know that Sarah didn't murder Myles Dyson. He was only beginning to consider that EVERYTHING he thought he knew about Sarah Connor was wrong. Compare that to what Ellison believes to be true about Weaver - who has demonstrated absolute faith in him when he was arrested for murder, when they spoke about Cromartie; who has money, power and resources; who is never less than in control. Who would you trust? Why put your faith in the possibly deranged, possibly murderous Sarah Connor when you can turn to Catherine Weaver? But now that he's stepped onto that road, Ellison is stuck with the decision he's made. His certitude that he can recognize the Devil when he sees it, his hurbis, leads directly to Skynet's doorstep. |
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DEM
Refugee
I'm Kilroy.
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Post by DEM on Jan 10, 2009 18:51:28 GMT -5
Sarah. Seriously. Whereas Sarah is guarded, Weaver is slippery. Whereas Sarah had been fighting a 1-person war for several years and has the scars to show for it, Weaver appeared out of nowhere, has no history, and takes everything in ultra-cool stride. Sarah Connor is the Proletariat; Catherine Weaver is the Bourgeoisie. ( But many who are first will be last, and the last, first, James.  ) Honestly, try as I might, I can hardly fathom how it is that Ellison doesn't see this. His investigative curiosity about Weaver has been nearly non-existent, and he pouted and stole the toys as soon as he didn't get what he expected. So what Sarah didn't roll out the red carpet and cry Hosanna! at the first sign of intelligent life: Suck it up and try harder. I pity and forgive him not one bit. |
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schmacky
Major
"Make yourself useful."
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Post by schmacky on Jan 10, 2009 19:11:26 GMT -5
what Sarah didn't roll out the red carpet and cry Hosanna! at the first sign of intelligent life: Suck it up and try harder. I pity and forgive him not one bit. Amen, sista! I still like Ellison, but I'm very disappointed in him.  |
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k8ie
Corporal
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Post by k8ie on Jan 11, 2009 1:25:33 GMT -5
Sarah. Seriously. Whereas Sarah is guarded, Weaver is slippery. Whereas Sarah had been fighting a 1-person war for several years and has the scars to show for it, Weaver appeared out of nowhere, has no history, and takes everything in ultra-cool stride. Sarah Connor is the Proletariat; Catherine Weaver is the Bourgeoisie. ( But many who are first will be last, and the last, first, James. ) [snip] So what Sarah didn't roll out the red carpet and cry Hosanna! at the first sign of intelligent life: Suck it up and try harder. I pity and forgive him not one bit. I don't disagree with you but if you're Ellison, I still say you trust Weaver over Sarah Connor: up until the point she wheels out John Henry like the prize pumpkin at the county fair, Weaver does nothing but work to earn Ellison's trust. She's cultivated it, ostentatiously believing his story when he's arrested, as she die with Cromartie. And she shared her own experience with a terminator and bonded with him over the deliberate omission in her account of her "husband's" death - in as sense, offering absolution for his own lies about Cromartie and Laslo. Nor does Ellison know about Sarah Connor's one-woman (and son and brother-in-law and cyborg pseudo-daughter) war against Skynet because she doens't tell him. She doesn't explain herself to him because she doesn't owe him a thing and Ellison has no right to expect otherwise. And then her sociopathic kids come and her pet killer robot come and beat him unconscious - compared to that, Weaver looks like freaking Mother Teresa (and that Sarah appears 'bad' while Weaver appears 'good' in Ellison's eyes seems to be part of the design in my opinion). Moreover, Weaver's cover, including the very traumatized Savanah, is very good - Ellison checked her out, remember? Unlike Sarah Connor's criminal past, here is a good woman who's been victimized by these machines, like Ellison, who wants to find answers, like Ellison, who understands what can't be talked about, like Ellison. And Ellison thinks he knows Weaver - he's been working with her for months - whereas neither of his two encounters with Sarah have been particularly salubrious. Where my ability to empathize with Ellison breaks down (I don't particularly sympathize with him) is that he doesn't get a freaking clue when Weaver does introduce him to John Henry. I think the scripture we're looking for here is "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit" (seriously, Matthew FTW, every time. ;D ) - even if you weren't looking for a time-traveling, killer-computer from the future, the John Henry program already killed one man and Ellison expects that a course in ethics is going to change a machine's fundamental bend towards self-preservation? No, this is burn it down and salt the earth territory, and you'd think Ellison had read enough of the Old Testament to see that. The problem is Ellison's pride, which is a nice character beat IMO, because you see it from his first appearance, the saavy agent with his snappy "patter" and in his irritation with Catherine Dent's (the character's name escapes me) jibes at his expense or with his wife finding happiness with another man - James Ellison is a proud man and pride is a deadly sin for a reason. |
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Post by richardstevenhack on Jan 19, 2009 20:41:34 GMT -5
I can't drop a spoiler in this thread, but Ellison's quick interview on the front page gives us a major clue as to his motivations vis-a-vis John Henry.
But I have to agree with those who think Ellison was not happy at Sarah's reaction to his presence. He grabbed Cromartie's body and ran back to Weaver immediately - like that night or the next day before John and Cameron got back down there. You just can't explain that except that he didn't like being shut out of the Connors war against Skynet.
The proper approach for Sarah should have been to get this guy on the Connor's side big time. If Sarah didn't know that he'd left the FBI, then she should have assumed he would be very useful working on the inside. Once she found out that he was no longer at the FBI, he would still be obviously useful as a recruit, given his training and the fact that he still maintained FBI contacts (they called him when John's name came over the wire from Mexico).
Maybe Sarah didn't trust him not to turn her in at some point. That would certainly make sense. But just because she recruited him doesn't mean she has to drop security around him. She could have kept him at arm's length and still made use of him. Like Cameron said about the police in "Demon Hand" - "I do find them useful".
No - she blew him off and that was a (another) major mistake. Whether it was because she was exhausted or sick or whatever is irrelevant. John should have been the one to see the potential in using Ellison.
Actually, in one respect, Ellison's actions not only make sense, they were correct. He took Cromartie back to Weaver with the idea that they would take Cromartie apart and find a way to destroy Terminators by finding out what makes them work.. This IS something the Connors should be doing instead of just destroying them. You'd think John would have interrogated Cameron by now about every detail that she knows about Terminators, so he will have an advantage of already knowing all this before the war starts. But there's no indication he's ever done this, except a little bit in "Vic's Chip".
So Ellison might have felt that Sarah's approach of just destroying the Terminator was incorrect, and that was reinforced by John and Cameron's assaulting him.
But while that was correct, once Ellison saw Cromartie hooked up to John Henry, his reaction should have been much stronger than it was. But once Weaver persuaded him to try to educate John Henry, then the element I refer to in his interview comes into play.
He's a sad case - and I'm pretty sure he's going to die as a result of it. Or perhaps live with the guilt of it, as Andy Goode did when he became "Wisher". But Ellison's a sad case precisely because of his belief system.
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