|
Post by allergygal on Mar 7, 2008 2:07:27 GMT -5
Tonya has just left my jaw on the floor on that theory after re-reading it twice. Just wow! Looks like the writers have either thought this one through pretty heavily or its a major coincidence. I really hope all those little details were intentional because even if I'm way off base with my ideas, it seems like those connections should add up to something. And the way sarah is so affected by Andy's death... why keep the sadness of a secondary character's death going if his story is really over? I have to believe we haven't seen the last of Andy.
|
|
|
Post by Big Brother on Mar 7, 2008 7:47:38 GMT -5
Interesting theory. But you don't go far enough.
A wise man once said that the only difference between fiction and reality is that fiction has to make sense. This is a fictional universe, so it has to make sense.
I don't think Kyle, Derek, Cameron, and the various Ahnuld-bot Terminators have been sent back from different futures. It's all the same future.
Think about it...nothing in the various flash-forwards we've seen so far is clearly in a future where J-day was in 1997, 2004, or 2011. Our sources for these dates are what time-travelers say, not events we see happening on-screen. Ignoring the now-non-canonical T3, the only Judgement Day with date attached we've seen onscreen is the 2011 one, in the TSCC season finale.
What if Judgement Day was always in 2011...but John, a John who lived through the events of T2 and TSCC, remembered his mom saying that Kyle told her J-day was in 1997...so before sending Kyle back, he orders him to lie and say it was in 1997. Kyle, the good soldier, does so, and Sarah believes him.
John also sends back Ahnuld-bot 2, "Uncle Bob", with falsified files saying that Cyberdyne and Miles Dyson brought on the apocalypse. John lived through the events of T2 and knows Dyson died and Cyberdyne was blown up and so this didn't happen, but if he doesn't send back Uncle Bob to tell Sarah this, it won't happen that way. So Uncle Bob's faked files lead to the events of T2, the death of Miles Dyson, and so forth.
Two years later, Cameron arrives to save John and Sarah from Cromartie. Cameron was sent back with the real date because that's the date John remembers her bringing with her.
Future-John doesn't need to stop Skynet from being created. He remembers trying and failing. He knows it can't be done. But he also knows that if his past self doesn't try, whether they succeed or not, HIS reality will be changed and thus he will cease to exist.
Maybe they stop Skynet...maybe they get killed trying. But any change in the timeline that leads to him will wipe him (future John) out and he won't get a second chance to try and fix it. The safest course is not to try and fight the past but to preserve it in order to preserve at least a chance at a bright post-Skynet future. Recall that (non-canonical T3 aside) we're not just told John leads the resistance, we're told that he leads it TO VICTORY. Humans win the war. Sure, the cost of that victory is astronomical, but screwing with the past is as likely to wipe out that victory as it is to avoid the war altogether.
If humanity emerges from that war united and ready to rebuild human civilization better than it was before, is it worth risking that future to try and preserve the culture and state of affairs that led to the war in the first place?
So the entire timeline, past, present, and future, is the same timeline. Skynet is trying to change the past because it knows it loses the war (perhaps it sent agents into the future to find out). John is trying to preserve the past because he knows he won.
|
|
|
Post by allergygal on Mar 7, 2008 13:22:46 GMT -5
...nothing in the various flash-forwards we've seen so far is clearly in a future where J-day was in 1997, 2004, or 2011. Our sources for these dates are what time-travelers say, not events we see happening on-screen. Ignoring the now-non-canonical T3, the only Judgement Day with date attached we've seen onscreen is the 2011 one, in the TSCC season finale. What if Judgement Day was always in 2011... So the entire timeline, past, present, and future, is the same timeline. Skynet is trying to change the past because it knows it loses the war (perhaps it sent agents into the future to find out). John is trying to preserve the past because he knows he won. That's actually pretty cool, but I think it's almost too safe of a plan for John Connor. We're learning that he's a risk taker and we also know he doesn't want people to die. So I'm much more inclined to think that he would try to change the past to prevent j-day completely or at least lessen the length of the war. By the way, when do we see a 2011 judgement day on screen in the SCC season finale?
|
|
|
Post by tzigone on Mar 7, 2008 14:11:39 GMT -5
When Kyle and Derek were playing baseball (not when John was there - the other time, when they were older). Kyle thought it was fireworks.
|
|
|
Post by Big Brother on Mar 7, 2008 17:52:38 GMT -5
Yup, very first scene of "What he beheld" after the previously-on.
|
|
|
Post by allergygal on Mar 7, 2008 18:55:26 GMT -5
Oh, right right right right. I was thinking about the end of the episode and totally scratching my head.
|
|
|
Post by Big Brother on Mar 8, 2008 1:35:51 GMT -5
Hmmm...I just realized there is a big hole in my one-timeline theory: Old Andy in the future. If this is all one timeline, and Andy was killed in 2007, then he should not still be alive in 2027. A couple of possibilities to save my theory...
1.) Wisher is not Andy. He's a guy who looks like him, a twin brother, or something like that. Maybe he was brainwashed in the basement into saying he's Andy Goode and built Skynet.
2.) Wisher is a Terminator built to look like Andy Goode. Maybe Skynet got lonely and missed its creator.
As to why Skynet wants Derek to think Andy built Skynet, I can think of a few possibilities, but no good ones.
|
|
|
Post by DerekThomasReese on Mar 15, 2008 6:11:51 GMT -5
I actually agree with both allergygall and big brother about their theories.Allergygalls was interesting because she said that andys life was changed because of the time jump and he ends up not being the main creator of skynet but someone who helps build it.The andy in the future knows he creates skynet in the pre time jump past cos he was a part of the team with miles dyson that creates skynet.But the andy in the time jump future dropped out of cal-tech cos of his father dying was the main thing that motivates him into designing the turk.Big brothers theory is interesting because he says that J-DAY was always 2011.This might be true cos like he said that is the only nuclear attack we ever saw that gave the date.But since the future was changed the date could have been changed and it was always 1997 but they stopped it from happening then.But this doesnt explain what kyle said about being born afterwards in the ruins because we see him in Episode 9 with derek during the nuclear attack.So yeah both theory's are interesting and if the writers go on these boards they should definitley consider these ideas.
|
|
|
Post by Derek Reese on Mar 16, 2008 22:19:39 GMT -5
I just personally see it as the timeline is in a constant state of flux. What it may start out as, maybe altered due to the actions of those, who altered the past in some way, shape or form. The Connor's are doing that themselves and Derek coming back is another factor that alters that.
Which ties into preservation ala Big Brother's state except the Connor's and Derek aren't trying to preserve the future at the moment. Their trying to alter it. Stop Skynet from happening. Stop the war before it hits.
|
|
|
Post by allergygal on Mar 17, 2008 0:39:43 GMT -5
I just personally see it as the timeline is in a constant state of flux. What it may start out as, maybe altered due to the actions of those, who altered the past in some way, shape or form. The Connor's are doing that themselves and Derek coming back is another factor that alters that. Andy Goode always seems to be in the thick of it, though: - Sarah & co. blow up Cyberdyne (where Andy is an intern) to try to change the future. - Sarah destroys The Turk with fire to try to change the future. - Derek kills Andy to try to change the future. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Andy climbed out of that urn and pieced his ashes back together again... "Hi Sarah, it's Andy. Yeah, Derek did kill me, but in a weird way it was the best thing that ever happened to me. You see, after I was cremated, my ashes couldn't stop thinking about this amazing code that came to me like a bullet through the brain. So I just had to reassemble myself and start work an a 3rd Turk right away. I don't know what happened to my old partner Dimitri, but I've got this new Armenian partner named Sarkissian. He's a real nice guy. So you can you meet me at the chess tournament?"
|
|
|
Post by Derek Reese on Mar 17, 2008 0:45:43 GMT -5
Even if he is it seems like the Turk is the core of it though or so it seems.
Derek coming in and taking out Andy was, what one could easily assume is part of the cure to the problem. Although it's lead them into more trouble than its worth.
I can't see him coming back unless he faked his death somehow or somehow another time machine is pulled into play and the Connor's or someone stops Derek from killing him, which is a strange possibility, but it's up there.
|
|
|
Post by tzigone on Mar 17, 2008 13:42:44 GMT -5
I think it's almost too safe of a plan for John Connor. We're learning that he's a risk taker and we also know he doesn't want people to die. So I'm much more inclined to think that he would try to change the past to prevent j-day completely or at least lessen the length of the war. Answering in speculation thread.
|
|
|
Post by allergygal on May 25, 2008 18:04:30 GMT -5
My new Andy Goode theory /season 2 speculation: Future!Andy will find out that he didn't actually build Skynet and he'll time jump to 2008 to try to pick up where his former self left off. This goes back to my earlier theory that he was brainwashed in that basement into thinking he built Skynet when in reality his AI work would have hindered it. So Skynet wanted Andy killed. It's convoluted, but I want Andy back, so I don't care
|
|
|
Post by vicheron on May 25, 2008 21:08:01 GMT -5
If Andy really did build Skynet, if he was with Skynet when it turned against the human race then why is he still alive? How did he manage to escape Skynet in the first place and why isn't he constantly being hunted by Terminators? If he really was the creator Skynet then he would be a top priority target.
|
|
|
Post by Derek Reese on May 25, 2008 22:35:04 GMT -5
I was thinking along the same lines yet again, Vicheron. They would have been protecting him or pulling him closer to the goal at hand, but he met his demise.
And on top of it, if he was killed in the present then Derek's own timeline is being modified as we speak. So the future that he came from doesn't exist now since he killed Andy.
|
|