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Post by littleb on Nov 27, 2008 9:04:54 GMT -5
I'm going to have to agree with this. Also remember her 'carrots and apples' phrase that she used in episode 2? And she seemed puzzled that people didn't say that. In the future those /would/ be good things and that lead to a little bit of speculation on her origins, but most people dismissed it. Oh, "carrots & apples" comment - perfect. Doesn't strike me as a phrase that'd bandied around too much in a future apocalyptic world where people eat garbage but I still think Riley's a future chick. Maybe they've managed to genetically modify some fruit and veg to stave off that lesser-known affliction Tunnel Rat Scurvy The writers played a neat game with Riley. That first episode where she made the scary robot man had everyone shouting "arrrgh, maybe she's from the future!". Then there was the little tease with the star tattoo where the barcode should've been... But then she knew who Lindsay Lohan was and there was nothing else to tip the suspicion radar and people settled into thinking she was just the lurrrve interest with no ulterior motive other than to be a counter-point to Cameron and a source of annoyance for Ma Connor. Awww, I bet it's Reese... or Kyle... or maybe Cyril, y'know, just to stop him getting big-headed. <g> I think the Slash writers might put paid to that notion...
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Post by Big Brother on Nov 27, 2008 9:06:01 GMT -5
I don't have time for my usual lengthy point-by-point breakdown of this ep. Others have analyzed the Riley Revelation to death. But everyone's forgetting something very interesting.
After Ellison figured out what went wrong to lead to Sherman's death (From overheating? Please.), he suggested that they should teach John Henry some commands, specifically, "the first ten". He clearly meant the Ten Commandments.
What a horrible set of moral imperatives to give a machine. Okay, a couple of them are fairly good: don't kill, don't lie, don't steal...not sure how a computer can commit adultery, but such a prohibition might put a kibosh on John/Cameron 'shipping, which is always good. Honoring its mother and father might be a bad idea, considering that Catherine Weaver is its momma.
But the first few Commandments are a recipie for disaster. Imagine a super-sophisticated computer AI actually trying to abide by, and enforce, the commandment to only have one god...imagine the anguish of a computer that communicates through images having a ban on graven images...and is John Henry gonna demand one day off every week?
We've already got a perfectly good set of moral instructions for sentient robots: Asimov's Three Laws. Well, technically, there are four:
The Third Law: A robot must protect it's existence, so long as this does not conflict with the other three laws. Skynet Junior here probably can grasp this one very easily.
The Second Law: A robot must obey any command given to it by a human, provided it does not conflict with the first or zeroth law. Eh, maybe they can modify this so not just any janitor who wanders into the control room can give it orders.
The First Law: A robot may not harm a human being, or through inaction, allow a human being to be harmed, provided this does not conflict with the Zeroth Law. This would have saved Dr. Sherman's life, albeit at the likely cost of some burned-out servers that will need to be replaced.
The Zeroth Law: A robot may not harm humanity as a whole, or through inaction, allow humanity as a whole to come to harm, period. This law the robots came up with themselves in the books by Asimov. This law would probably save humanity and prevent Judgment Day all by itself.
Granted, a sufficiently poorly programmed AI might still decide to start acting like the Magog from Andromeda, and "protect humanity from all future harm" by extincting humanity as quickly as possible...no living humans means no more humans can ever come to harm ever again. Simple. Elegant. Insane.
MOD EDIT: Content removed
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Post by chrisimo on Nov 27, 2008 11:59:54 GMT -5
Doesn't strike me as a phrase that'd bandied around too much in a future apocalyptic world where people eat garbage but I still think Riley's a future chick. Maybe they've managed to genetically modify some fruit and veg to stave off that lesser-known affliction Tunnel Rat Scurvy If you mostly eat garbage then apples and carrots ( if you can get them) would be pretty tasty and therefore 'apples and carrots' = happy thoughts My mother grew up in postwar Germany and during her childhood one of her greatest birthday gifts was two slices of bread with marmelade.
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Nov 27, 2008 15:24:18 GMT -5
I don't recall seeing a bar code on Jesse or Riley's arms. That would mean Jesse was never in the slave labor camps. If Riley is from the future then she somehow avoided the camps too. Good point, Ace, but Fischer didn't have a tat, either. Derek made a big deal out of his prison art but there was no mention of a bar code, which would have been dead proof that he was a Future!Guy. So... Greys don't get coded the same way as prisoners? I remember thinking at the time that it was odd that one of the first things Riley does is show John her little tattoo where the barcode should be... If Jesse and Riley were sent back by Skynet, which is the theory I'm sticking with right now (because I want Jesse to die in an explosive fashion), would the machines have known to erase the bar codes to keep the Connors and other resistance fighters from knowing that they were prisoners? Seems to me, BB, that Asimov's Laws are based on the idea that they can be hardwired into a robot brain, whereas the terminator mythos is based on the premise that Skynet has agency of action. I thought it was interesting that the word Ellison uses is "ethics" and not "morals" - ethics being a system of morals and morals being right behaviour itself.
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terrasj
Sergeant
Rossbond Connor Crew
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Post by terrasj on Nov 27, 2008 15:29:27 GMT -5
It's interesting how there's been a lot of talk about how the Connors don't know about Jesse, how she has her own ulterior motives, and how she's mysterious and not trustworthy, but we should consider how much Jesse actually knows about John Connor. Jesse may be as ignorant of the Connors as the Connors are ignorant of her. Does she actually know what John Connor is like or does she just think she knows him? Considering how little Derek and even Kyle really knew about John, it seems unlikely that an outsider like Jesse would have much information about John. Does she think that Cameron is the first Terminator he's ever trusted? Does she know about Uncle Bob? Jesse talks about Cameron like she's the root of the problem but Uncle Bob is the real origin of John's willingness to reprogram Terminators. Regardless of what happens, John has to reprogram Uncle Bob. Jesse is messing with things she doesn't fully understand. Jesse may not actually know what she's doing. She may have a plan for John but if she doesn't know about Kyle or Uncle Bob then chances are that she's not going to get the results she want. Hence the Zealot Fanaticism term I was associating with Jesse in her shipper thread, hell bent on a single cause / objective (removing Cameron), believing it is the means to fixing all their / the problems in the world. Sarah did ask once who's Jesse, and Derek lied saying its another guy, so it's really Derek's bag (! pun alert! ) to keep hidden of reveal. The Connors wouldn't have any other way of knowing who Jesse is. Not even Cameron would be expected to know. Jesse may be a face she'll recognize in the corridors, but not the identity or significance of that face. Or who knows? we'll find out in a future episode when theres a confrontation. Funny how she tracks down both old and young Charles Fisher, enlists in Derek to torture them both, for some sick revenge that was did upon her (or an alternate future Derek), and trying to prevent a certain outcome in the future. The stupid thing is, in a hasty moment, Jesse draws faster than Derek can pull the trigger, and kills the older future Fisher, which actually starts the cycle of getting imprisoned, learning about human psychology, then gets recruited by Skynet. Had Jesse put any thought into it, she'd have killed the young one, or possibly both to completely break the cycle. Jesse present day becomes her own reason why Fisher in the future delights in torturing her. I think this episode demonstrated well that some fates are just inevitable, much like the entire premise of this TV series (JD still happened after T2). Getting a small glimpse into Jesse's dark future was just the side benefit, as it didn't have anything to do with the episode's plot.
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Nov 27, 2008 15:42:18 GMT -5
It's probably a red herring but I thought it was interesting that when Derek confronts Jesse, she says "you could have told me you were living with her, the machine, it" and then goes back to talking about a "her".
Now, it's human nature to anthropomorphize things but it seems strange that if Jesse is so replused by John Connor's attachment to a machine, she still personifies it as a "her".
Which leads me to the other question, if Jesse comes from a timeline that's started when Derek kills Andy Goode/Sarah and John come forward in time... what happened to Sarah?
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Post by chrisimo on Nov 27, 2008 15:48:32 GMT -5
If Jesse and Riley were sent back by Skynet, which is the theory I'm sticking with right now (because I want Jesse to die in an explosive fashion), would the machines have known to erase the bar codes to keep the Connors and other resistance fighters from knowing that they were prisoners? So Skynet has given up on killing John for the time being?
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tom
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Post by tom on Nov 27, 2008 15:54:48 GMT -5
Yeah, it looks like everything they do is the starting point of the future they want to avoid. If Derek killed the younger Fisher there would be no problem - no future Fisher. But no, everything they do just sets up the scene for JD. Like Jesse using Riley- John will eventually find out what's up and turn away from every people and trust and talk to nobody but Cameron. (Summer said John didn't want to love anymore after something happened - I assume it's Riley) Jesse said she wanted to stop Cam. But she started this cycle by using Riley. It implies to me that there is a fate that's inevitable, although it can be transformed or delayed but not can not be avoided.
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Nov 27, 2008 16:17:06 GMT -5
If Jesse and Riley were sent back by Skynet, which is the theory I'm sticking with right now (because I want Jesse to die in an explosive fashion), would the machines have known to erase the bar codes to keep the Connors and other resistance fighters from knowing that they were prisoners? So Skynet has given up on killing John for the time being? Well, I've always thought that if Skynet were really smart, it would work harder to kill Sarah: with Sarah John, John is far more vulnerable and, to go back further, without Sarah to shape him into the weapon he becomes, John's not much of a threat. John Connor is who is he is because of Sarah. And arguably, killing John Connor and leaving Sarah Connor alive creates an equal or greater threat to Skynet since the thing that tethers Sarah to the human race's finer qualities is John. Because, really, Sarah doesn't like machines now. Imagine if she was actually pursuing a course of vengeance.
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Post by chrisimo on Nov 27, 2008 16:35:39 GMT -5
So Skynet has given up on killing John for the time being? Well, I've always thought that if Skynet were really smart, it would work harder to kill Sarah: with Sarah John, John is far more vulnerable and, to go back further, without Sarah to shape him into the weapon he becomes, John's not much of a threat. John Connor is who is he is because of Sarah. And arguably, killing John Connor and leaving Sarah Connor alive creates an equal or greater threat to Skynet since the thing that tethers Sarah to the human race's finer qualities is John. Because, really, Sarah doesn't like machines now. Imagine if she was actually pursuing a course of vengeance. You may be right that Sarah could be a greater threat to Skynet. If humanity would follow her lead, of course. But why send Jesse and Riley back?
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terrasj
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Rossbond Connor Crew
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Post by terrasj on Nov 27, 2008 16:38:11 GMT -5
Because, really, Sarah doesn't like machines now. Imagine if she was actually pursuing a course of vengeance. Hell hath no furry like a woman scorned. I'd really hate to be Skynet...
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Nov 27, 2008 16:46:12 GMT -5
You may be right that Sarah could be a greater threat to Skynet. If humanity would follow her lead, of course. But why send Jesse and Riley back? I don't think Sarah would care about humanity. Assuming she didn't say 'F U all' and blow her own brains out, I figure she'd go on a scorched earth campaign against any possible Skynet progenitor that would make the destruction of Cyberdyne look like a kid playing with legos. As for Jesse and Riley - if Jesse is mechanical or ebil (the two are not synonymous) then I believe that Riley's role is to isolate John from his mother and possibly to gain the very information on his family and father that Derek volunteers to Jesse. Jesse was very cool to that information BTW. How come she doens't ask about Kyle. When Derek left, no one knew what happened to Kyle Reese. So why isn't Jesse more surprised to learn that Derek somehow has a nephew 12 years his senior? Why doesn't Jesse mention the magic name? More like "never mess with the mama bear" but yes.
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Post by chrisimo on Nov 27, 2008 16:54:32 GMT -5
You may be right that Sarah could be a greater threat to Skynet. If humanity would follow her lead, of course. But why send Jesse and Riley back? I don't think Sarah would care about humanity. Assuming she didn't say 'F U all' and blow her own brains out, I figure she'd go on a scorched earth campaign against any possible Skynet progenitor that would make the destruction of Cyberdyne look like a kid playing with legos. Ok, you are talking about the time before Judgement Day? You think that Sarah might start killing everyone who might be in any way responsible for the creation of Skynet? I assume that is possible. But how far would she be able to go with that? As for Jesse and Riley - if Jesse is mechanical or ebil (the two are not synonymous) then I believe that Riley's role is to isolate John from his mother and possibly to gain the very information on his family and father that Derek volunteers to Jesse. But to what end? Both Riley and Jesse had the possibility to kill John and Sarah. Jesse was very cool to that information BTW. How come she doens't ask about Kyle. When Derek left, no one knew what happened to Kyle Reese. So why isn't Jesse more surprised to learn that Derek somehow has a nephew 12 years his senior? Why doesn't Jesse mention the magic name? Maybe she just didn't know what to say? I don't really have a good explanation for that.
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Post by vicheron on Nov 27, 2008 19:22:53 GMT -5
This Skynet doesn't have the knowledge of its previous incarnation. It may not know about Cyberdyne or Miles Dyson. They destroy Cyberdyne before it even made the neural net processor. It probably does not know about how the Connors tried to prevent it from being created.
Also, I don't know if anyone else noticed this but the Turk is already self aware. It has a certain level of consciousness. It's doing things that no one understands. It has been unpredictable.
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Post by allergygal on Nov 28, 2008 5:48:44 GMT -5
Why did Jesse jump to 2007? She couldn't have known Cameron was in 2007. Even if the bubble tech knew about Cameron's time jump (and told Jesse), he only could have known about her going to 1999, not 2007. It seems like a mighty big coincidence that Jesse would arrive at the same year Cameron, John and Sarah jumped to (and Derek too).
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