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Post by chrisimo on Nov 28, 2008 6:33:25 GMT -5
Why did Jesse jump to 2007? She couldn't have known Cameron was in 2007. Even if the bubble tech knew about Cameron's time jump (and told Jesse), he only could have known about her going to 1999, not 2007. It seems like a mighty big coincidence that Jesse would arrive at the same year Cameron, John and Sarah jumped to (and Derek too). That depends on what timeline Jesse comes from. The jump from 1999 to 2007 must have changed the future (John being younger). If she came back after that change happened, then she could know that the Connors and Cameron jumped from 1999 to 2007.
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t101
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Post by t101 on Nov 28, 2008 6:42:33 GMT -5
Why did Jesse jump to 2007? She couldn't have known Cameron was in 2007. Even if the bubble tech knew about Cameron's time jump (and told Jesse), he only could have known about her going to 1999, not 2007. It seems like a mighty big coincidence that Jesse would arrive at the same year Cameron, John and Sarah jumped to (and Derek too). If Jesse had jumped after Cameron then that by definition should mean she comes from a future where John did grow up with Cameron already. Nothing else makes sense to me. So she could have somehow known parts of John's story. Or she could have simply followed Derek and not Cameron. This raises an interesting question about Derek and Cameron. Which one of them went first and does this mean they are from different time lines? Or could they have been sent simultaneously?
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Post by vicheron on Nov 28, 2008 7:21:39 GMT -5
This is why the multiple timeline idea wouldn't work. If everyone who comes back changes the future then new people sent back are going to be from new timelines. It could change things that have already happened, for example in the new timeline they've created, Skynet may not send Cromartie to 1999, maybe it'll send a T-1000. It could even mean several copies of the same person. If for example, if Cameron changed the future, then it's possible that the Cameron in the new timeline doesn't get sent back to 1999, she may get sent back to 2002, then she could create yet another future where a new Cameron gets sent back to 2005, then another one to 2008, etc. Timelines will just be continuously rewritten until they create a timeline where time travel technology doesn't exist.
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Post by chrisimo on Nov 28, 2008 7:37:08 GMT -5
This is why the multiple timeline idea wouldn't work. If everyone who comes back changes the future then new people sent back are going to be from new timelines. It could change things that have already happened, for example in the new timeline they've created, Skynet may not send Cromartie to 1999, maybe it'll send a T-1000. It could even mean several copies of the same person. If for example, if Cameron changed the future, then it's possible that the Cameron in the new timeline doesn't get sent back to 1999, she may get sent back to 2002, then she could create yet another future where a new Cameron gets sent back to 2005, then another one to 2008, etc. Timelines will just be continuously rewritten until they create a timeline where time travel technology doesn't exist. Is there really an idea that does work with the series?
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Post by vicheron on Nov 28, 2008 7:58:45 GMT -5
Fate, that's generally how these kinds of struggles end. It's a pretty common theme in all mythology. Someone learns about their fate, they try to change it, sometimes in the attempt to change destiny they become the catalyst for their fate, and then eventually they come to accept it. It's a theme that's been with us for thousands of years, from Kronus to Odin to MacBeth and now with many modern mythologies, including the first Terminator.
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Post by chrisimo on Nov 28, 2008 8:05:18 GMT -5
Fate, that's generally how these kinds of struggles end. It's a pretty common theme in all mythology. Someone learns about their fate, they try to change it, sometimes in the attempt to change destiny they become the catalyst for their fate, and then eventually they come to accept it. It's a theme that's been with us for thousands of years, from Kronus to Odin to MacBeth and now with many modern mythologies, including the first Terminator. Ok. But what is the fate in this case? Judgement Day? John becomes the leader of mankind? Some things can be changed (like the arrival of Judgement Day), so it is not clear what fate is about.
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Post by vicheron on Nov 28, 2008 8:20:59 GMT -5
Well, we don't actually know if they ever changed the arrival of Judgment Day. The show doesn't follow the movies perfectly, they already changed the date of the original Judgment Day as well as when T2 took place. We don't know how much of what happened in the movies is still relevant in the show.
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Post by chrisimo on Nov 28, 2008 8:27:04 GMT -5
Well, we don't actually know if they ever changed the arrival of Judgment Day. The show doesn't follow the movies perfectly, they already changed the date of the original Judgment Day as well as when T2 took place. We don't know how much of what happened in the movies is still relevant in the show. But we know that in one iteration of the future Andy Goode was alive to tell Derek that he created Skynet. And I think it is safe to assume that in the current future, there will be no Andy Goode.
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Nov 28, 2008 9:53:10 GMT -5
This raises an interesting question about Derek and Cameron. Which one of them went first and does this mean they are from different time lines? Or could they have been sent simultaneously? Derek had to go through before Cameron since Cameron knew where to find his safehouse. I don't see it as multiple timelines but a single changeable future. So far, we haven't seen multiple versions of Sarah, Derek, John or Cameron or any signs of those Star Trekkie/comic book typle multiverses. And unlike movies like Frequency, all the characters memories of their past have stayed constant even in cases where they've changed events directly affecting their lives (Derek/Cameron). Sooooo... (in an attempt to haul this thread back on topic) despite the fact that Jesse and Riley come from a future that changes when Derek shoots Andy Goode, in that future, John must also send Kyle, Derek, Uncle Bob and Cameron back because he always sent them back but you don't suddenly get a different Derek running around. I mean it's all basically a paradox - Kyle Reese was always John's father/ Kyle Reese was never John's father - I think either you accept that and move on or you go crazy worrying about something that is only possible on a level of theretical physics so abstruse as to be irrelevant for all practical concerns.
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Post by allergygal on Nov 28, 2008 13:48:48 GMT -5
Why did Jesse jump to 2007? She couldn't have known Cameron was in 2007. Even if the bubble tech knew about Cameron's time jump (and told Jesse), he only could have known about her going to 1999, not 2007. It seems like a mighty big coincidence that Jesse would arrive at the same year Cameron, John and Sarah jumped to (and Derek too). If Jesse had jumped after Cameron then that by definition should mean she comes from a future where John did grow up with Cameron already. Nothing else makes sense to me. So she could have somehow known parts of John's story. Or she could have simply followed Derek and not Cameron. This raises an interesting question about Derek and Cameron. Which one of them went first and does this mean they are from different time lines? Or could they have been sent simultaneously? That's the only possibility I can come up with too. I'm not sure it fits with what Jesse says to Derek, though: "I was sent back to find him... You could have told me you were living with him. You could have told me you were living with her, it, metal. He wasn't talking to anyone anymore. Just her. He's making questionable decisions, getting people killed — good people... She's taken over. It's sick is what it is. Imagine if he spends the next 20 years with her. Imagine what he'll become. What she'll turn him into. Just try. I'm here to stop her. I'm here to save him."If Jesse comes from a timeline where Cameron had already been with John since 1999/2007, then that underlined section above makes no sense. She wouldn't need to speculate what he'd be like after 20 years with Cameron because she'd already know. Actually, now that I think about it, it does work. I was originally taking that to mean: it's bad enough that he doesn't talk to anyone else but Cameron anymore and making questionable choices, so imagine how much worse he'd be if he spent 20 years with Cameron. But now I'm thinking she meant that John spending 20 years with Cameron is why he wasn't talking to anyone else anymore and making questionable choices. And since she knows Derek is from a different future, she really was just trying to get him to imagine what John being chummy with a robot for 20 years would do to him. I still can't come up with a scenario in which Jesse would know Cameron was in 2007, though. I can't imagine that's the kind of info John would ever let out.
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t101
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Post by t101 on Nov 28, 2008 13:57:18 GMT -5
She might have known Derek went to 2007 to aid the Connors and followed after him?
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Nov 28, 2008 14:06:24 GMT -5
She might have known Derek went to 2007 to aid the Connors and followed after him? I'm assuming (and assuming Derek is assuming) that Jesse got her information about Derek's mission and location from Cully's brother, the bubbletech who sent her back in time (see "The Tower") - assuming (could this theory get any more conditional?) that Jesse is actually a human resistance fighter. And if you assume (fourth assumption - jeez, I feel like the Virgin Mary here) that "Complications" implies a change in the future from the one Derek knows, then it's possible that John has spent the last 20 years with Cameron and that Jesse is trying to convince Derek of what that means - 'look at how John reacts to Cameron now, imagine what he's like 20 years from now". Buuuuuut, if the Cully's-brother-the-indiscreet-bubble tech is giving out information about who Future!John is sending back in time and Cameron is a known metal (see "Dungeons and Dragons"), then he could be the person telling the anti-metal faction of the resistance that Connor sent another machine back to...? Except, he didn't send her back to 2007, did he? He sent her back to 1999. So... how long, exactly have Jesse and Riley been booting around the future, looking for John Connor and his pet machine?
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schmacky
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Post by schmacky on Nov 28, 2008 14:09:23 GMT -5
I still can't come up with a scenario in which Jesse would know Cameron was in 2007, though. I can't imagine that's the kind of info John would ever let out. Jesse is friends with a bubble tech though, right? They could be in cahoots and the bubble tech told Jesse where people were ending up (Derek, Cameron) and she followed to stop it. Except, he didn't send her back to 2007, did he? He sent her back to 1999. So... how long, exactly have Jesse and Riley been booting around the future, looking for John Connor and his pet machine? But Derek was sent back to 2007 so she might have followed that time period instead of when Cameron was sent back. MOD EDIT: consecutive posts combined.
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t101
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Post by t101 on Nov 28, 2008 14:30:35 GMT -5
The bubble tech guy by the very action of sending Jesse back on her own mission is on her side, so it's pretty much a given that he told her everything he knows.
As for 1999... well I think Derek can tell that she's not 8 years older since when he knew her, so she wasn't looking for John since 1999. As for why 2007, I'm assuming that she did get her hands on some specific piece of information and it was a location where she could find John, which decided the date.
I'm thinking the guy who did the writing on the wall may have something to do with it, he did know exactly where the Connors lived.
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Nov 28, 2008 14:40:26 GMT -5
The bubble tech guy by the very action of sending Jesse back on her own mission is on her side, so it's pretty much a given that he told her everything he knows. Assuming (my new favourite word) that's how Jesse and Riley got to the past... Now that I think about it, Riley's presence is probably the best contradiction of Jesse's story - Cully's-brother-the-bubble-tech-with-no-appreciation-of-operational-security might have sent Jesse back to stop Cameron but why would the resistance send a kid back in time to mess with John Connor's mind? Also, if Big Mouth the Bubble Tech sent Jesse back, why doesn't she know about Kyle? Why doesn't she at least ask Derek - who is in no way subtle about his devotion to his brother - where's Kyle?
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