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Post by richardstevenhack on Dec 9, 2008 18:34:28 GMT -5
There's still a problem with the weight issue. Even 10-20 percent more weight on a female would be noticeable, if not on a male. Jesse can't weight over 110 - if she weighs 130, Derek would be asking her to go on a diet!
While we know Jesse is not a Terminator in the future, we don't know that the one who came back is not a Terminator. But again, there simply is ZERO evidence that she is and a LOT of evidence that she's not. It simply makes no sense for a Terminator to be sent back, go through a lot of rigmarole with Riley just to get close to John. Jesse could have simply walked up to John any time after locating him and wasted him. There's no way a Terminator who is specifically targeted at John to waste a lot of time with Riley and sub-plots. And if Jesse is NOT specifically targeted at John, then Skynet is missing a hell of a shot at John - which also makes no sense.
Face facts, Jesse is entirely human. Whether she is WORKING for Skynet as a grey is another question entirely, but I don't see much evidence for that, either. And since she wasted on grey, Fischer, I doubt she's that either.
Besides which it would be much more interesting if she supposed to be on John's side.
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Post by theturk on Dec 9, 2008 20:43:14 GMT -5
Is someone who disagrees with you necessarily evil? Were the Greek soldiers who conspired against Alexander the Great evil, or were they simply not able to understand why their beloved king was adopting Persian customs and hanging around with so many of the hated enemy?
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Post by allergygal on Dec 9, 2008 21:40:47 GMT -5
^ You're determined to take all the fun out Jesse aren't you? I'm sure Jesse very much believes in what she's doing. And when we learn more details about John's use of metal in the future, we'll know if her views and her actions are valid (the use of metal is certainly questionable even from the little we do know). But at the moment — while Jesse lies and plots and keeps secrets — can't we just enjoy the unanimous cry of "EEEEVIL"?
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terrasj
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Post by terrasj on Dec 9, 2008 22:48:29 GMT -5
and theres nothing writing out the possibility that Jesse's been brainwashed by Skynet? Since that little future scene of her in Fischer's company, tied down and subjected to whatever tortures he performed?
Jesse may not even realize it, she may be set out to get Cameron, but will she pull the trigger on John instead? Sort of a sleeper agent there?
The way Skynet used Fischer, and more importantly why they used him like a valuable asset certainly isn't below Skynet's reputation. The fact Jesse was one of his unwilling lab rats for an unspecified amount of time is what concerns me.
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Post by Forte21x on Dec 9, 2008 23:16:13 GMT -5
and theres nothing writing out the possibility that Jesse's been brainwashed by Skynet? Since that little future scene of her in Fischer's company, tied down and subjected to whatever tortures he performed? Jesse may not even realize it, she may be set out to get Cameron, but will she pull the trigger on John instead? Sort of a sleeper agent there? The way Skynet used Fischer, and more importantly why they used him like a valuable asset certainly isn't below Skynet's reputation. The fact Jesse was one of his unwilling lab rats for an unspecified amount of time is what concerns me. But wasn't the scene of Jesse at Fischer's mercy just a head fake? I think it was just a set up to reveal that Derek was the victim. After seeing how Derek and Jesse met, and how she seemed to be okay with a T-888 as her sub-commander I wonder what changed her. And to make myself more confused: That meeting we saw b/w them was from Derek, in a different timeline than the one Jesse was in. So I wonder how different Jesse and Derek's memories are b/w the two timelines.
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Post by Derek Reese on Dec 10, 2008 1:01:05 GMT -5
Good questions on all accounts. Definitely stuff I'm looking forward to seeing answered in the episodes ahead.
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k8ie
Corporal
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Post by k8ie on Dec 11, 2008 5:22:36 GMT -5
Is someone who disagrees with you necessarily evil? Were the Greek soldiers who conspired against Alexander the Great evil, or were they simply not able to understand why their beloved king was adopting Persian customs and hanging around with so many of the hated enemy? That depends... were they taking action that they knew to be immoral or merely questioning Alexander's judgment? If the latter, no. If the former, yes.
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Post by aceplace57 on Dec 17, 2008 21:45:49 GMT -5
I thought Jesse took a rather odd character turn in Earthlings Welcome. She has been such a consummate manipulator. I thought her reaction to Riley was totally out of character. WTF was Riley supposed to do? She was kicked out of her foster home. Jesse's mission hinges on Riley being a normal teen girl that will attract John. Riley living on the streets, dirty and unkempt isn't what Jesse needs.
Sure, Jesse is a cold, ruthless resistance fighter. She'll kill Riley after her usefulness is over. Jesse is also a smart manipulator that knows how to use people. Her violent reaction to Riley was just stupid. There's times when leaders have to be supportive and understanding. They may want to kick someone in the rump for screwing up. But they swallow hard, count to ten, and do what's needed for the mission.
Honestly, Jesse should have put on that bikini, lay in the sun and let poor little Riley talk her heart out. That's the Jesse we saw just a few episodes ago. My gosh she's got Derek so wrapped up that he's about to betray his own nephew. Jesse wouldn't drive Riley away with such a stupid reaction.
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terrasj
Sergeant
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Post by terrasj on Dec 19, 2008 1:01:08 GMT -5
I thought Jesse took a rather odd character turn in Earthlings Welcome. She has been such a consummate manipulator. I thought her reaction to Riley was totally out of character. WTF was Riley supposed to do? She was kicked out of her foster home. Jesse's mission hinges on Riley being a normal teen girl that will attract John. Riley living on the streets, dirty and unkempt isn't what Jesse needs. Sure, Jesse is a cold, ruthless resistance fighter. She'll kill Riley after her usefulness is over. Jesse is also a smart manipulator that knows how to use people. Her violent reaction to Riley was just stupid. There's times when leaders have to be supportive and understanding. They may want to kick someone in the rump for screwing up. But they swallow hard, count to ten, and do what's needed for the mission. Honestly, Jesse should have put on that bikini, lay in the sun and let poor little Riley talk her heart out. That's the Jesse we saw just a few episodes ago. My gosh she's got Derek so wrapped up that he's about to betray his own nephew. Jesse wouldn't drive Riley away with such a stupid reaction. Jesse reminds me alot like a particular cousin of mine. Self serving, and only cares about herself, and whatever strings she has to pull to get what she wants. No care or remorse for others as they're simply tools for her gain. Simply a manipulative B*tch, with a superiority complex. No, it was not out of character for Jesse. Soon as Riley came to Jesse, Jesse probably considered Riley as a write-off having screwed up royally with the foster home, and can potentially screw up and reveal the truths to John. Jesse probably figured just by Riley coming to visit her, could be a risk of leading John there, as well as accidentally risk being seen entering or exiting the hotel by Derek - who knows Riley is John's girlfriend. Also, Jesse's a soldier, so she's been hardened over time. Less weakness and morals than the average person. That makes her more deadly. Her response might've come out harsh on Riley, but it was probably as intentional as hitting Riley's face. Maybe Jesse knew that if Riley's nolonger an asset, crush her a little farther and she'll commit suicide. Its a risk / gamble, since Riley's fate is up in air right now, and theres still a chance she'll expose Jesse. I think that was a tactical error on Jesse's part. If Jesse had written off Riley, then Jesse should've dealt with Riley - snap her neck or whatever and dispose her like soiled laundry. Or much like you said yourself, bring her out to the poolside, pair of bikinis, and lend Riley an ear and play that big Sister / best friend role that Riley was seeking with the visitation. Riley's suggestion to move into a bigger place and share living together definitely seemed that way. But the problem is - Riley probably has no clue of Jesse's other schemes and plans, with Derek bing a big one. It just wasn't going to work. Jesse's already got several fingers in the pie, so to speak. Riley and Derek are both tools, as well as both risks. But their safe risks as long as they don't compromise Jesse's whereabouts or current schemes. Risks being Derek finding out Jesse knows Riley and Riley knows Derek. It would be more than co-incidence they both share Jesse as a friend. Is someone financing Jesse's mission in the present? And who would it be? As soon as Jesse and Riley jumped back, it didn't take them long to acquire brand new clothes (price tags intact), and rent a room at a pretty lavish hotel. You can't rent a room at any upscale hotel without a credit card. And, they double check the card with a driver's license to make sure it's not stolen. Someone must have had fake paper, and cards to supplier her with. Fake paper could be made in an hour or two, depending on how well sophisticated, and financed her backers are. Not to mention that Jesse dropped off Riley at school in a brand new car. Plus, she found no trouble buying guns, cell phones, and a expensive camera. Someone must have set her up with a little bit of cash, and probably some diamonds. Diamonds never depreciate in value, and Jesse had a shady fence who would buy stolen ones. ^^ Quoted from -= 02x13 Earthlings Welcome Here Discussion Thread =-This also falls in line with Jesse's character. She sweet talked Riley with big plans and promises. Heck, maybe even seduced Riley. Maybe not even in the sexual way, but with bringing her to the past/present day, to the world that was fabled as *lands of paradise* talk amongst the human survivors. We know for sure that Jesse's seducing Derek. All she needs to do is pout her face, talk sweet, and offer him some sex and its an easy play to manipulate him. Derek was also surprised how well Jesse knew the diamond fence dealer. Surprise surprise Derek - your Jesse's been sleeping with alot of guys in the present day to get where she is with the funds to live indefinitely in a posh hotel, maybe penthouse suit. Simply put, females can have an advantage when they can buy and pay for things with free sex. Especially when they lay on the flirt and use their attractive body as part of the sales pitch. ................................................................. Jesse's smart and intelligent, I'll give her that. She's devised and successfully running a few ongoing schemes. She makes an interesting character, moreso her secret agenda within the show. She'll continue to be an interesting antagonist, or mastermind rather, until she's exposed and is dealt with.
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Post by thecolours on Dec 19, 2008 2:31:49 GMT -5
I moved this post here, as requested. ------------------------------------------------
Is someone financing Jesse's mission in the present? And who would it be?
As soon as Jesse and Riley jumped back, it didn't take them long to acquire brand new clothes (price tags intact), and rent a room at a pretty lavish hotel. You can't rent a room at any upscale hotel without a credit card. And, they double check the card with a driver's license to make sure it's not stolen. Someone must have had fake paper, and cards to supplier her with. Fake paper could be made in an hour or two, depending on how well sophisticated, and financed her backers are.
Not to mention that Jesse dropped off Riley at school in a brand new car. Plus, she found no trouble buying guns, cell phones, and a expensive camera.
Someone must have set her up with a little bit of cash, and probably some diamonds. Diamonds never depreciate in value, and Jesse had a shady fence who would buy stolen ones.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Dec 19, 2008 7:58:31 GMT -5
I think Jesse operated the same way Derek's team did when they came through. They stole everything in sight, including jewels they could fence for hard cash.
The stuff they left the Connors was worth nearly a quarter of a million dollars (and that's presumably been replenished by Moise's stash they took after Jesse killed him). Not hard to get an apartment and cars and stuff with that kind of cash. Especially if you're also probably stealing the cars.
I am surprised at how fast these Resistance types fit right in with the criminal class of the present. OTOH, it's not a good idea to be operating with fences, because fences are allowed to exist in any town because they're also snitches for the cops. And that's the last thing these guys need, given that they're prone to killing people and getting into firefights with Terminators. If the heat comes down, the fences will rat them out.
They'd be smarter to find a way to fence those diamonds overseas where no one would be the wiser. But that would be difficult without adequate ID, travel ability, etc.
As for why Jesse treated Riley the way she did, we have two explanations: one real, one fictional. The real one is the writers had to come up with some reason for Riley to attempt suicide. I'm not sure the one they chose is all that solid, but I'll ignore that. The other reason is that Jesse actually intended Riley to fall apart and possibly kill herself, thus driving a wedge between John and Cameron.
If Riley was keeping John under surveillance during season one, then she probably saw the Jordan Cowan suicide and the fact that Cameron prevented John from saving Jordan. Jesse might have hit on the idea of manipulating Riley into committing suicide - or attempting to - after John was hooked on Riley in order to refresh that memory in John's mind and cause him to blame Cameron for Riley's suicide attempt or actual death.
This is a bit of a stretch since one would hardly rely on that sequence of events, but it is possible. It's on a par with the notion that Jesse can somehow convince John to stick with Riley for the next X years past Judgment Day. I mean, none of this actually gets rid of Cameron, physically, even if John does hook up with Riley, or even marries her. What happens when Judgment Day comes and maybe Riley croaks? Cameron is still around. So the whole Jesse plan really needs to either have more meat to it, or there's no way Jesse can be certain it has even a remote chance of working. The only way it could work for sure is if Jesse can somehow manipulate John into actually destroying Cameron.
And the only way that can work is if Jesse can somehow convince John that Cameron has done something so bad that she deserves to be destroyed.
Which just might mean that Derek is not long for this world....Maybe Jesse intends to kill Derek and frame Cameron for it. Or kill Riley and frame Cameron for it. Or kill Sarah and frame Cameron for it.
That would turn everybody against Cameron and allow Jesse to achieve her goal.
Riley isn't enough. There's got to be more to this plot than meets the eye so far.
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terrasj
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Post by terrasj on Dec 20, 2008 3:30:19 GMT -5
Interesting theories there richardstevenhack
I agree, Jesse's main goal centers around removing Cameron from the picture.
I just don't think killing Riley would be enough to drive that wedge between John and Cam. Especially if Cameron puts on her best caring sympathy & understanding moves on John, maybe even say a few nice things about Riley. Cameron will win John over, I'm sure of it (might be Cameron's most powerful performance yet). Thus, I seriously think Jesse grossly underestimates Cameron.
Jesse Off'ing Derek would work, maybe as a backup plan if Riley doesn't work. Afterall, its Derek who spotted and went after her in the park, not Jesse coming back and seeking out Derek. So her feelings for him might not be that deep. Then again, that'd be the perfect irony, she sacrifices Derek, then ending up anguishing over it - something she entirely didn't plan on - Derek somehow sneaking past her emotional defences. She'd be fully deserving of it.
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Post by allergygal on Dec 20, 2008 3:46:12 GMT -5
In "The Tower is Tall...", the terminator that Cameron turns into a pretzel has a self-destructing chip. John's response to that is "Skynet must not want me reprogramming in the future." This is the same episode we first meet Jesse (who we've since learned doesn't like John's use of metal in the future). I think it's unlikely Jesse's working for Skynet since she's had plenty of opportunity to kill John. But I do find it curious that we got introduced to both Jesse and the self-destructing chip in the same episode. Maybe there's something to that.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Dec 20, 2008 22:07:19 GMT -5
Interesting point. If one buys into the multiple time line theory, then perhaps both the self-destructing chip and Jesse come from the same time time. Both might well be because of Cameron's escaping the future into the past, if one buys my theory that she came on her own accord rather than future John sending her. It would indicate that Skynet finds her a particular threat and so does the Resistance, or at least the faction that sent Jesse.
John pretty much got over Jordan Cowan which he also blamed on Cameron. But he wasn't personally involved with Jordan, he didn't even know her. Riley is different - Riley is his girlfriend, his first love in essence. If he thinks Cameron caused Riley's death, he will be enraged. But that depends on whether Cameron actually kills Riley (or Jesse frames Cameron to make it look that way) or if Riley just dies because of the suicide. If the latter, it will be hard for John to blame that entirely on Cameron - that makes no sense and he would know that. He would get over that like he did with Jordan eventually.
But if Riley survives that attempt and still doesn't tell John about Jesse, and then Jesse offs Riley and frames Cameron for it, then John will be enraged at Cameron enough to try to destroy her. He may be conflicted about that, because of his strategic, as well as emotional, decision to reactivate her in "S&D", but he will try to destroy her if he thinks Cameron killed his only girl friend - unless Cameron can establish one damn good reason, which by definition Jesse will have covered.
The problem then is what happens? Cameron is not going to allow John to terminate her when she isn't at fault. And she can't kill him. So she'll have to run and then find out what really happened. And it won't be hard for her to find Jesse at that point, because she will KNOW that somebody else is at fault. She might follow Derek around first, since he is the only logical one she would suspect at first and thus discover Jesse. She might even beat Derek's ass until he confesses about Jesse. I'd like to see that event! ;D From that point, it's only a matter of time until she can prove to John who is at fault.
And then John will blow up at Jesse and Derek. Derek himself, once he learns that Jesse offed Riley and blamed it on Cameron, will be so upset he's likely to kill Jesse himself, despite his feelings for her.
The other possibility, of course, is that Cameron screws up and actually kills Riley herself, either before or after learning about Riley being involved in Jesse's plot. This would be a major mistake, and I doubt Cameron would make it, but she might since she's still not that good in dealing with human reactions.
In any event, I can't see any way Jesse comes out of this situation alive - unless everybody is REALLY REALLY forgiving because of her (alleged) motivation being to "save John". Sarah and Derek might be sympathetic to that concept, but not John - and of course definitely not Cameron. And if Jesse ends up being responsible for Riley's death, a relatively innocent civilian, I don't think anybody is going to cut her any slack regardless of her reasons.
Nope - Jesse's a goner for sure. The only question is how and how long will it take to get there.
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sfbreese
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Post by sfbreese on Mar 10, 2009 15:40:05 GMT -5
Can I just chime in that I really don't like Jesse and i'm really looking forward to the Derek/Jesse showdown?
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