k8ie
Corporal
Posts: 1,482
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Post by k8ie on Mar 23, 2009 13:35:05 GMT -5
I am displeased with the cut away. Unnecessary ambiguity is not nice. Or wanted. Like with Sarkissian. The first five episodes would have been so much better with the knowledge that John had killed Sarky. Revealing it in episode six didn't add anything to the story worth sacrificing the audience's grasp of the characters' motivations.
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t101
Major
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Post by t101 on Mar 23, 2009 13:55:03 GMT -5
We're beating Jesse with a stick? Where? I think she's dead. I think he explains why he could kill Wisher to her so she knows what he's about to do. On the other hand he killed Wisher on his own. And now his faith in John Connor seems to be rekindled, and John Connor let Jesse go. "We rise and fall on your shoulders."
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Post by allergygal on Mar 23, 2009 13:57:24 GMT -5
I am displeased with the cut away. Unnecessary ambiguity is not nice. Or wanted. Like with Sarkissian. The first five episodes would have been so much better with the knowledge that John had killed Sarky. Revealing it in episode six didn't add anything to the story worth sacrificing the audience's grasp of the characters' motivations. I totally agree with that and I'm not sure why they're going with ambiguity again. But I feel sure Derek didn't kill Jesse because of the contrast of the trigger *click* to Sarah's previous trigger *BANG* (when she killed Winston). The again, I felt sure Sarah had killed Sarkissian, so maybe that means Derek did kill Jesse.
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t101
Major
Posts: 716
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Post by t101 on Mar 23, 2009 14:04:46 GMT -5
The thing is, what would be achieved by killing Jesse? Justice? That would be a little hypocritical of Derek (a little!). Kill her because she betrayed him? Is that really enough?
Derek killed Wisher to stop Judgment Day. Killing Jesse doesn't change anything.
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Post by allergygal on Mar 23, 2009 14:28:37 GMT -5
The thing is, what would be achieved by killing Jesse? Justice? That would be a little hypocritical of Derek (a little!). Kill her because she betrayed him? Is that really enough? Derek killed Wisher to stop Judgment Day. Killing Jesse doesn't change anything. But I think from Derek's POV, Jesse was a traitor and therefore a threat to John. She'd already tried to manipulate the strength of his leadership — the very thing that humanity rises and falls on. Now I don't personally think the John Connor from Jesse's future is a good guy at all (if he's even still alive and running things, which I am doubting). But since Derek didn't care to hear about her future and the justification for that half-baked plot of hers, I have to default back to him seeing her as someone who betrayed John and betrayed the resistance. That alone wouldn't necessarily make Derek kill Jesse since it would amount to a revenge killing. But leaving Jesse alive leaves her free to plot again. It leaves her free to continue her attempts to try to alter the future so she gets her preferred outcome. I'd see that as a threat to John and to the resistance. This is why I would've expected him to kill her, but because of the way it was shown, I don't think he actually did. And that confused me quite a bit.
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Post by samuel95 on Mar 23, 2009 15:33:22 GMT -5
I don't exactly get it either. We had a sailor impaled by a T-1000, another's skull crushed by a T-888, and the same 888 got his head partially blown off. Then in the same episode the production team got all artistic with the execution of evil!Jesse. It's possible he didn't even do it. Maybe he intentionally missed. Maybe the gun wasn't even loaded. Maybe he didn't succeed if he tried. We just don't know because they didn't show us or tell us.
I thought it very well done except for the part where they tell us a story. If they wait a few episodes to completely reveal it (like killy Andy Goode) then I hope they have a good reason.
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wb5
Private
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Post by wb5 on Mar 23, 2009 17:09:59 GMT -5
No body = no kill, as far as I am concerned.
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Post by aceplace57 on Mar 23, 2009 18:59:06 GMT -5
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k8ie
Corporal
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Post by k8ie on Mar 23, 2009 20:19:57 GMT -5
No body = no kill, as far as I am concerned. Word. Comic Book Rules are most definitely in effect.
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Post by allergygal on Mar 23, 2009 21:15:22 GMT -5
^ So then Winston is potentially still alive too? I'm sure Jesse's alive, though. Derek would have yanked that trigger if he was going to kill her. His hesitation means he didn't.
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k8ie
Corporal
Posts: 1,482
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Post by k8ie on Mar 23, 2009 21:24:07 GMT -5
^ So then Winston is potentially still alive too? I'm sure Jesse's alive, though. Derek would have yanked that trigger if he was going to kill her. His hesitation means he didn't. You are the debil, tempting me to go OT.
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Post by littleb on Mar 24, 2009 10:05:26 GMT -5
^ So then Winston is potentially still alive too? On the bright side, Riley is definitely dead. Gonna add a vote for alive here (and FWIW I loved that scene.) Don't think he let her live because she was Jesse though, I think he was obeying his leader. Derek was totally awesome in this episode, BAG gave a storming performance. I think the writers are probably hedging their bets with Jesse as a character. They took a lot of effort writing her arc, and I'm guessing that they wanted the option of bringing her back if the show does get renewed.
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Post by samuel95 on Mar 24, 2009 11:43:47 GMT -5
I think the writers are probably hedging their bets with Jesse as a character. They took a lot of effort writing her arc, and I'm guessing that they wanted the option of bringing her back if the show does get renewed. Finally something makes sense. A lot invested in the character already and it wouldn't be hard to bring her back if they want to. They won't have to snag someone from a different time line or get too far outside the devices they've used so far. Meanwhile they got a great scene to show the conflicts Derek has to deal with. Whether she died isn't really central to the idea that the story arc is completed with a lot of internal conflict on the part of each of the characters. Winston's already come back from the dead once, why not again? In this show 'dead' isn't permanent until they've graphically displayed it -- and maybe not even then.
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Post by allergygal on Mar 24, 2009 12:08:43 GMT -5
I'm sure Jesse's alive, though. Derek would have yanked that trigger if he was going to kill her. His hesitation means he didn't. Gonna add a vote for alive here (and FWIW I loved that scene.) Don't think he let her live because she was Jesse though, I think he was obeying his leader. Derek was totally awesome in this episode, BAG gave a storming performance. I think the writers are probably hedging their bets with Jesse as a character. They took a lot of effort writing her arc, and I'm guessing that they wanted the option of bringing her back if the show does get renewed. It does seem like kind of a waste to give us a Jesse back story just to kill her off immediately afterwards. But I don't like the idea that Derek was obeying John's orders. Future leader or not, he's still currently a 16-year-old kid who just retconned displayed his first bit of brains in many episodes. He's got a long way to go and a lot more growing up to do before I'd follow him across the street, let alone all over hell. The John who would intentionally stab his mother in the heart to align himself with a robot is not the leader of humanity yet (and it remains to be seen whether that final seen will have any lasting impact on his nonstop choosing of Cameron over Sarah).
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k8ie
Corporal
Posts: 1,482
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Post by k8ie on Mar 24, 2009 12:28:14 GMT -5
The John who would intentionally stab his mother in the heart to align himself with a robot is not the leader of humanity yet Oh, God. We're back to this again? Where exactly does John stab his mother in the heart? I'm pretty sure that one of the things that characterizes a healthy relationship is that it can withstand disagreements and the occassional slight. Sarah was wrong about Cameron killing Riley (Sarah had no reason to trust Cameron's word but it doesn't make her assumption correct) and John was snotty about it. Oh, gee. He's 16. I'm shocked that he would behave like a passive-agressive twerp when faced with the monolithic wall of Sarah's pervassive loathing of all things Skynet. Welcome to teenagers. They suck.... In other news, rain is wet. ;D
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