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Post by allergygal on Jan 6, 2009 21:27:30 GMT -5
Like a lot of SCC character beats, I also thought it played backwards and forwards along the charater arc, adding depth to Ellison's previous encounters with his wife while calling shennanigans on his attempt to guilt Sarah Connor into recruiting him for Robot!War. But, to me the scene wasn't about Ellison's frustrated paternal desires but about establishing his moral and religious bona fides, reminding the audience that Ellison is not a just a spiritual man but a religious man. Whereas Sarah Connor answers to her conscience, Ellison answers to God - a God of hard and fast rules about good and evil. The story about the abortion couldn't have come out in a scene with the ex because then the issue of the story is the fact of the abortion, whereas in the emphasis in the scene with the minister is that the abortion was the reason Ellison ended his marriage to a woman he still loves, the implications of which pay off in the scene with John Henry: Playing off the scene with the minister, we know that, however intellectually unsatisfying an answer "because we're God's children" may be to the question "why does human life matter", it is an answer that Ellison believes absolutely. And it raises the possibility that Ellison will make a leap that Sarah Connor never will to accept not only the fact of John Henry's existence but to find in that existence the essential quality that give value to existence: And were Ellison to conclude that John Henry is life, his beliefs would demand that he protect that life from those who would try to take it.... And that's why I like that scene. (Transcript courtesy of AG) Well, I will give you props for pointing out the significance of the abortion reveal to the dialog between Ellison and John Henry. I took it as being more about Sherman and human life having valuable. But if we go with the aborted baby as the thing that's primary in Ellison's mind during his chess game with JH, I can see why the abortion reveal had to come in this episode. I don't want to seem cold-hearted here, but I have a hard time buying that Ellison is motivated to get involved with a let's-see-if-we-can-teach-morals-to-the-scary-robot experiment because of his wife terminating a pregnancy seven years ago. Another problem with the minister scene is that, in it, we learn that the abortion is what ruined Ellison's marriage. But in Mexico, he told Sarah it was because of her that his marriage fell apart. "I lost a lot, when you died the first time — my marriage, my career." So which is it, Ellison? Was it your obsession with a case that ended in Sarah blowing herself up in a bank vault in 1999 or Lila's abortion in 2001? And please no on the "what constitutes a life?" thing. Isn't that already in play enough with Cameron? Do we really need Ellison and his liquid metal boss secretly doing the same thing form the basement of Zeira Corp with Cromartie/Turk/Babylon/John Henry? Anyway if anyone is ever going to conclude that the best way to avert judgement day is by hugging a computer and giving it some guidance, I'm thinking that should be John "I love technology, value human life and save mankind" Connor, not James "it's all about me" Ellison.
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Jan 7, 2009 0:07:20 GMT -5
Well, I will give you props for pointing out the significance of the abortion reveal to the dialog between Ellison and John Henry. I took it as being more about Sherman and human life having value. But if we go with the aborted baby as the thing that's primary in Ellison's mind during his chess game with JH, I can see why the abortion reveal had to come in this episode. I don't want to seem cold-hearted here, but I have a hard time buying that Ellison is motivated to get involved with a let's-see-if-we-can-teach-morals-to-the-scary-robot experiment because of his wife terminating a pregnancy seven years ago. No, no - I don't think it's motivating Ellison at all, really. That said, parenting as the process of forming a person's morals and judgement is a recurring SCC theme, and it's obvious that Ellison intends to fill that role in John Henry's development. But do I think that Ellison's decided to play daddy to the Commodore64? No. The conversation between John Henry and Ellison is about Sherman, it is about the value of human life. But as I said, the knowledge that Ellison's wife had an abortion and he, consciously or otherwise, ended the marriage over it, potentially changes the context of what Ellison means when he talks about the value of human life. Everyone on the show values human life - Derek values it so much he'll kill to protect it. Sarah will die to preserve it. John will sacrifice what he holds most dear but the lines they draw between right and wrong are all at different points in the sand - they're heroes but out of necessity, they exist in a context of moral relativism. The scene with his pastor and the ensuing scene with John Henry say to me that Ellison believes you don't get to make that choice, you don't get to priviledge your existence over another's as John Henry did when it cooked Dr. Sherman to death - that there is right and there is wrong and it is not up to you to decide which is which. It's very interesting that this comes up as Sarah Connor finally meets a bullet she can't dodge. Eh, it's just another piece of data to add to the equation. I don't see either premise as mutually exclusive but, looking back at how quickly Ellison folded when Sarah called him on it, I think bringing up his marriage was an attempt to play on her sympathy, using his knowledge of her relationship with Charley to generate a connection (he is trained in interrogation after all). IF that's what's going on (and on some level it must be since Ellison has now engaged to teach a computer ethics), surely the point is to contrast John Henry and Cameron. Well, perhaps not the main point but consider all the mirrors of Sarah Connor we have floating around this season - Kacey, Jesse, Riley, Weaver, even poor Alan, all to some extent reflect facets of Sarah's character back at her (even though she's unaware of Weaver and Jesse's existence). If Cameron has potential to be more than a program, surely one way to explore that idea is through comparison to similar programs? Ellison reeeeeeeeeeeally annoyed you with his "you ruined my life, Sarah Connor" speech, didn't he? And I thought I had it in for Jesse. *whistles* Put it this way, Chief, I don't think it's going to work out too well for Ellison... no system of belief is incorruptible and Skynet was trying to kill him for a reason, right?
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Post by allergygal on Jan 7, 2009 0:40:05 GMT -5
Everyone on the show values human life - Derek values it so much he'll kill to protect it. Sarah will die to preserve it. John will sacrifice what he holds most dear but the lines they draw between right and wrong are all at different points in the sand - they're heroes but out of necessity, they exist in a context of moral relativism. The scene with his pastor and the ensuing scene with John Henry say to me that Ellison believes you don't get to make that choice, you don't get to priviledge your existence over another's as John Henry did when it cooked Dr. Sherman to death - that there is right and there is wrong and it is not up to you to decide which is which. It's very interesting that this comes up as Sarah Connor finally meets a bullet she can't dodge. Quit making it sound all important and stuff. You can't break me. I'll never like that pastor scene... NEVER!That said, I like your take on it all. I need to leave it alone for now, though, or I will think when I should be laughing. Ellison reeeeeeeeeeeally annoyed you with his "you ruined my life, Sarah Connor" speech, didn't he? And I thought I had it in for Jesse. *whistles* Put it this way, Chief, I don't think it's going to work out too well for Ellison... no system of belief is incorruptible and Skynet was trying to kill him for a reason, right? When you stab Sarah Connor in the back, you don't get to be a good guy anymore. My problem with Ellison started when he stole Cromartie's body. It got worse when he didn't question Catherine about why she intalled a new brain in him instead of taking him apart. And I think I hit the point of no return when he agreed to play daddy to John Henry.
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Post by Erika on Jan 7, 2009 11:41:37 GMT -5
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Post by littleb on Jan 7, 2009 14:31:40 GMT -5
...The scene with his pastor and the ensuing scene with John Henry say to me that Ellison believes you don't get to make that choice, you don't get to priviledge your existence over another's as John Henry did when it cooked Dr. Sherman to death - that there is right and there is wrong and it is not up to you to decide which is which. It's very interesting that this comes up as Sarah Connor finally meets a bullet she can't dodge. Yeah, she does have a way with the words FWIW, I never liked the scene, it felt shoe-horned in and a bit clumsy. My main problem with it though was the guy playing the pastor who, given a paperbag, I fear would struggle to act his way out of it. I know he had little to do other than make polite listening noises but he was pretty rubbish and it just chucked me out of the scene. It was a little reminiscent of Eileen's "you're a seeker... you're everything but you're nothing" outburst. I appreciate what they were aiming for and I liked the intentions but I think the actress struggled with those lines and like the pastor scene, it was trying too hard and felt forced. <bg> I bet we all have our guilty moments when we should be deep in serious thought and really we're giggling into our sleeves. Put it this way, Chief, I don't think it's going to work out too well for Ellison... no system of belief is incorruptible and Skynet was trying to kill him for a reason, right? Ellison bugs me because he's so damn determined to play himself into a righteous part in all this. "What's my role?" Go home and stop meddling dude you are making things very messy indeed. Not everything is about you, these people are trying to save the world here! I know he's trying to help, but he's not doing very well at all.
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Jan 7, 2009 15:07:14 GMT -5
Quit making it sound all important and stuff. You can't break me. I'll never like that pastor scene... NEVER!Heheh. Never send a fangirl to do a Scholastic's job. I, uh, okay - I have to admit I have made a conscious choice not to think about what the triple effin' Hell is going through Ellison's mind in those scenes because it makes my eye twitch. As always, you rock it mightily, E. Aw, c'mon guys - I can't be the only one who liked that scene. Seriously? The only one? I agree about Eileen - I got the extremely annoying self-consciously self-aware tone they were going for - like that workmate who's finally quit smoking and now won't stop telling you about how it's changed her life and you should really try this awesome Papaya cleanse, it will make you feel like a new woman and what are doing with that mouse cabl-ACK! But it didn't quite work. Maybe if I had a sense of what she was about to say next that got quite so under Sarah's skin... He did come off very whiny in "Mr. Ferguson" but I actually get it - Ellison's found out that the end of the world is coming and he wants to help stop it. While I understand Sarah's refusal to invite anyone else into the fight, particularly after what happened to Charley's wife, but I empathize with Ellison, that 'hey, hey, I want to help too!' He has traning and skills and abilities that they could use and being sent home to cool his heels must have grated.
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Post by potomac79 on Jan 7, 2009 15:45:30 GMT -5
I have to agree with AG...I'll never like that pastor scene. While the writing was a little heavy-handed, my complaint is actually more technical. I mean, what could be more visually boring than two guys standing around talking...except maybe two guys sitting around talking (well--one guy and one cyborg)? The directing left much to be desired. At least have James walk the pastor to his car or something.
I still have a problem with Cat's pet-Ellison diving right in with biblical morality and how humans are sacred. Seems a little advanced. As I wrote elsewhere: "I think a general-rules-of-society approach would be a better start—you know, things like crossing with the light, flipping over helpless turtles, not launching a global thermonuclear strike. You know, the small stuff."
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Jan 7, 2009 16:01:16 GMT -5
^^ Kind of like how John and Sarah are sort-of teaching Cameron by default, right? ;D
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Post by potomac79 on Jan 7, 2009 16:34:45 GMT -5
Exactly. "Complications" definitely showed the ideal way of teaching a cyborg: by example and then by explanation. I wouldn't be surprised with the results. Cameron will likely go all "Thank you for explaining," while John-martie might take his cue from Mythbusters: "I reject your reality and substitute my own."
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rossbondreturns
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Post by rossbondreturns on Jan 7, 2009 22:17:57 GMT -5
I thought the Pastor scene was most Excellent K8ie and nothing will dissuade me from that line of thought.
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Post by littleb on Jan 8, 2009 9:38:19 GMT -5
I, uh, okay - I have to admit I have made a conscious choice not to think about what the triple effin' Hell is going through Ellison's mind in those scenes because it makes my eye twitch. The only way I can fathom it, maybe, if you kinda squint a bit and yeah, maybe twitch a little too... is that Ellison is trying to help in a roundabout way. Sarah shut him out and won't let him play with the Save The World Gang. He gave Cromartie to Weaver ostensibly to stop history repeating itself. She resurrected him so that didn't go so well (would've been nice to see Ellison acknowledge that: "Woah, what you doing?! Don't plug him in!!") So he's now intent on helping Weaver raise a good little all-conquering-apocalypse-heralding AI. What he's never done is question Weaver's motives for creating John Henry. Which doesn't make him a hero, it makes him an idiot. I think he's blinded by his self-proclaimed mission: "We can't allow history to repeat itself, not when we have the power to stop it. It's up to us now... The two of us." The man has become an ego-maniac. They are very beautiful. Love that scene of Sarah sitting on the bench listening to the tape, it's just gorgeous. "I'm a man living as a woman... you're a woman living as a..." ? I guess the logical follow-on is "man." Which is a little presumptuous coming from someone who's known Sarah for about 5 minutes. Sarah's a tomboy to a large extent, but I thought we were past having to dress in pink, slap on a load of lippy and totter about on high heels, before heading off to simper in a corner just to maintain some stereotype of what it is to be feminine? Stranger presumption still coming from someone who's transgendered. He does genuinely want to help, I just question that his motives are entirely altruistic. His religious zeal for his role in his Mission seems to be blocking his common sense, otherwise he might be asking questions Weaver probably wouldn't want to answer.
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DEM
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Post by DEM on Jan 8, 2009 10:36:15 GMT -5
"I'm a man living as a woman... you're a woman living as a..." ? I guess the logical follow-on is "man." Which is a little presumptuous coming from someone who's known Sarah for about 5 minutes. You know, at first I thought that bit clanged, but I like that scene more every time I watch it. I've grown accustomed to Eileen's particular speech cadence. Anyway, I thought the last word might be "machine", because Eileen saw Sarah as both protean and heartless. That would fit with Sarah's (pre-emptive) reaction. In contrast, "man" doesn't seem like an insult Eileen would hurl nor one that would cause Sarah to pull her gun. "Fake", maybe, too. Nevertheless, I kinda like the ambiguity, the not knowing. And I still hate the minister scene. BtW, the last time I watched the "You're everything but nothing" scene (i.e., 5 minutes ago), it occurred to me that they did that scene entirely inside the trailer using a steadycam. Wow. Talk about close quarters.
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Post by allergygal on Jan 8, 2009 15:49:50 GMT -5
I, uh, okay - I have to admit I have made a conscious choice not to think about what the triple effin' Hell is going through Ellison's mind in those scenes because it makes my eye twitch. The only way I can fathom it, maybe, if you kinda squint a bit and yeah, maybe twitch a little too... is that Ellison is trying to help in a roundabout way. Sarah shut him out and won't let him play with the Save The World Gang. He gave Cromartie to Weaver ostensibly to stop history repeating itself. She resurrected him so that didn't go so well (would've been nice to see Ellison acknowledge that: "Woah, what you doing?! Don't plug him in!!") So he's now intent on helping Weaver raise a good little all-conquering-apocalypse-heralding AI. What he's never done is question Weaver's motives for creating John Henry. Which doesn't make him a hero, it makes him an idiot. I think he's blinded by his self-proclaimed mission: "We can't allow history to repeat itself, not when we have the power to stop it. It's up to us now... The two of us." The man has become an ego-maniac. *headdesk* Am I the only person not to read the Mr Ferguson scene as Sarah slamming the door on Ellison? I've been resisting getting back into this, but I think the time has come. I've started a discussion in the Ellison character thread.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Jan 19, 2009 22:17:39 GMT -5
I didn't mind the pastor scene too much (other than the fact that I'm a rabid atheist, so I actually don't like Ellison because of that, not to mention that I don't like FBI agents in general.) I thought it was written well and didn't expose too much too directly.
I can't drop a spoiler in this thread, but it's clear from Richard's quickie interview recently that they're playing it that way, i.e., this is his chance to be a Daddy. I think it's a bit weak like other people here do, but it's plausible.
Ellison is not entirely a rational guy, which appears to be the source of his problems. As a conservative Christian, he broke up with his wife over an abortion. And it would seem that it was as much the fact that his wife made the decision without him that bothered him, as much as the abortion itself.
But it's also clear that his earlier failure in capturing Sarah Connor also had an impact on his marriage.
So those people who see in him someone who is motivated as much by the sin of pride as his Christian beliefs are probably correct. In fact, although I don't want to start a religion flame war here, it's not unreasonable to suggest that it is precisely his Christian patriarchal belief system that lead directly to his problems in his marriage and in his inability to see Weaver as a threat and his inability to work with Sarah.
In other words, he might feel that his wife betrayed him, and Sarah outsmarted him, so therefore he has a problem with women. He distrusted Weaver in the beginning, but his issues overwhelmed that distrust because he thinks he can find a way to a solution through Weaver without having to "submit:" to Sarah Connor. He clearly resents Sarah's attitude toward him and Weaver offers him a way to get back at Sarah while still providing him with a plausible "moral" excuse - that Weaver will help him destroy the Terminators who killed his associates without Sarah's help.
What interests me is that Josh put all this religious stuff in primarily because he was interested in how someone like Richard T. Jones, who is a Christian who carries his Bible around with him on the set, would handle the Terminator situation if it were real. What I wonder is how Jones will react if Ellison is eventually proven to be the instigator for Skynet, not merely in spite of his beliefs, but because of them. I can imagine Jones, and any Christian viewers, not being happy with that outcome. It's a delicate subject and it will be interesting to see how Josh and the writers handle it.
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Post by Erika on Jan 22, 2009 15:41:27 GMT -5
Fox released 2 new promo photos: LQ HQ
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