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Post by aceplace57 on Nov 18, 2008 11:53:25 GMT -5
John and Sarah's discussion about killing innocents is interesting. I was relieved that John is still committed to not killing unnecessarily. Sarah may be starting to weaken a little. I'm not sure what she'll do the next time there's a witness. John was still an putz in this scene. Mom spills her guts and takes the blame for leading Cromartie to the house. Meanwhile John smugly keeps the secret that Cromartie had already been to the house several days before. Sarah: It was my fault. John: What was your fault? Sarah: Cromartie I led him to you. John: What are you talking about? Sarah: There was this kid, a boy in the bowling alley. He was with the guys who broke into our house. I knew what I had to do John and didn't do it. I let him go. Cromartie must have found him. John: We're not murderers. <pause> You're not. Sarah: Tell it to the boy. I'm sure he's dead.
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Post by theturk on Nov 18, 2008 11:57:57 GMT -5
Perhaps Fisher did it in part to insure his own continuation in the timeline? Makes it seem almost better to have shot younger Fisher. Lets say Derek shot young Fischer. he what you happen to old Fischer? Would he just vanish out of the chair? Be "erased from existence"? If they kill young Fischer than future Fischer could never come back right? No. Old Fischer would continue to exist, but as an "orphan" of a no longer operative timeline. In some sense all of our time traveling characters are temporal orphans, with memories of timelines that cease to exist because of their very actions.
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cyadon
Major
A Random Sci-Fi Geek
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Post by cyadon on Nov 18, 2008 12:13:16 GMT -5
Lets say Derek shot young Fischer. he what you happen to old Fischer? Would he just vanish out of the chair? Be "erased from existence"? If they kill young Fischer than future Fischer could never come back right? No. Old Fischer would continue to exist, but as an "orphan" of a no longer operative timeline. In some sense all of our time traveling characters are temporal orphans, with memories of timelines that cease to exist because of their very actions. Awesome. That's exactly how I imagined that it worked out with TSCC so far. Now, Zack, if you could explain the 'black hole' paradox for us...? just kidding! Also, I'd like to say thank you to the writers for including the picture of Sarah and letting it get back into John's hands. It makes total sense that Ellison had it (since he was one of the last visitors to their New Mexico home in 1999). It feels like things are 'where they're supposed to be' in regards to the photograph now, especially since it's such an important part of the overall lore.
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Post by aceplace57 on Nov 18, 2008 12:25:54 GMT -5
Ok, I'm lost. What's the deal with the photo of Sarah and the dog? I don't recall ever seeing it before. Was it taken during the TSCC pilot? I can't recall Sarah with any dog. I know in T1. The gas station photo is the one Kyle had. But Sarah and a dog?
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k8ie
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Post by k8ie on Nov 18, 2008 12:29:19 GMT -5
It's meant to be the same photo, Ace.
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t101
Major
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Post by t101 on Nov 18, 2008 12:31:08 GMT -5
Actually, I think the second dream is about the kid in the bowling alley. Sarah's surrounded by these helpless creatures she's trying to save and Cameron, who's supposed to be helping them, turns them over to Cromartie, like Cameron led Cromartie to the bowling alley and the kid in the washroom. I don't think nurturing imagery fits with that. I think it's to do with how Sarah says she doesn't like how John responds to Cameron. I think she sees her as the other guiding force in his life apart from herself.
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Post by aceplace57 on Nov 18, 2008 12:34:26 GMT -5
It's meant to be the same photo, Ace. Oh, the one Derek talked about, back in S1. Mystery solved. thanks
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Post by Erika on Nov 18, 2008 12:51:07 GMT -5
Ok, I'm lost. What's the deal with the photo of Sarah and the dog? I don't recall ever seeing it before. Was it taken during the TSCC pilot? I can't recall Sarah with any dog. I know in T1. The gas station photo is the one Kyle had. But Sarah and a dog? Look at my signature artwork, we saw the photos in DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS, it's the photo that John gives to Kyle in the future that allows him to fall in love w/ Sarah. BTW I was so stoked to see this show up, I asked Zack at Comic Con when and how they were going to get that photo back into the Connor's hands
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k8ie
Corporal
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Post by k8ie on Nov 18, 2008 13:01:25 GMT -5
I don't think nurturing imagery fits with that. I think it's to do with how Sarah says she doesn't like how John responds to Cameron. I think she sees her as the other guiding force in his life apart from herself. Eh, it's a dream. It could mean Sarah wants Cameron to turtle wax the jeep. That said, I don't see why Sarah's subconcious would need to spit up a metaphor to represent John when John's death is a running feature of her nightmares in all its specific, exquisitely detailed glory. Whereas the tortoise was just one among many.
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Post by aceplace57 on Nov 18, 2008 13:15:46 GMT -5
Cromartie looked pretty much the same in the trunk. Wouldn't he be a little ripe after a day or so in the desert? I bring it up because skin decay was a big part of T1. You'll recall the line, "Hey, buddy. You got a dead cat in there, or what?".
I'm not sure how long Cromartie was buried. It seemed like John/Cameron returned the next day. But it gets hot in the desert, and he spent awhile in the trunk.
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traitorsgate
Sergeant
This is Cam. She's trained for an Off-World kick murder squad. Talk about Beauty and the Beast.
Posts: 264
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Post by traitorsgate on Nov 18, 2008 13:27:58 GMT -5
Cromartie looked pretty much the same in the trunk. Wouldn't he be a little ripe after a day or so in the desert? I bring it up because skin decay was a big part of T1. You'll recall the line, "Hey, buddy. You got a dead cat in there, or what?". I'm not sure how long Cromartie was buried. It seemed like John/Cameron returned the next day. But it gets hot in the desert, and he spent awhile in the trunk. Yep it would wreak to holy hell. lil John woould likely be hurling his guts up.
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Post by aceplace57 on Nov 18, 2008 13:41:40 GMT -5
It's a shame they didn't include that problem in this episode. Ellison opens the trunk and starts coughing and dry heaving. Meanwhile Weaver (T-1000 can't smell) stands coolly by.
Later, the skin would regenerate when Cromartie is connected to the Turk.
It would have been a fantastic shout out to T1.
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Post by allergygal on Nov 18, 2008 14:14:23 GMT -5
Oh, good point. I didn't even realize that after all that insistence that they find out what his mission is, Jesse caps him without them finding out. Yeah, she's still bad news. Bad, bad news. Why would she grab Fischer in the first place? To gain Derek's trust? No, I think she was actually intending to find out what Fisher was up to. But killing him before they did was as stupid as Derek killing Andy before he had the Turk in hand. Derek and Jesse are quite the pair. One Derek is plenty, though, I think. I think the second dream is about the kid in the bowling alley. Sarah's surrounded by these helpless creatures she's trying to save and Cameron, who's supposed to be helping them, turns them over to Cromartie, like Cameron led Cromartie to the bowling alley and the kid in the washroom. I loved that what Sarah can neither forgive herself for leaving Cromartie a lead to John nor leaving the kid for Cromartie in the first place. Interesting take on the dream. I'm not sure if I agree, but I haven't quite decided what it means yet. And yeah, it sucks to be Sarah. The woman can never not feel guilty. John and Sarah's discussion about killing innocents is interesting. I was relieved that John is still committed to not killing unnecessarily. Sarah may be starting to weaken a little. I'm not sure what she'll do the next time there's a witness. John was still an putz in this scene. Mom spills her guts and takes the blame for leading Cromartie to the house. Meanwhile John smugly keeps the secret that Cromartie had already been to the house several days before. Sarah: It was my fault. John: What was your fault? Sarah: Cromartie I led him to you. John: What are you talking about? Sarah: There was this kid, a boy in the bowling alley. He was with the guys who broke into our house. I knew what I had to do John and didn't do it. I let him go. Cromartie must have found him. John: We're not murderers. <pause> You're not. Sarah: Tell it to the boy. I'm sure he's dead. I did chuckle at John's last line, but it was also a little odd. Does that mean both he and Sarah have now acknowledged that John murdered Sarakissian (as opposed to accidentally killing in self-defense)? That seems like a pretty big thing for them to have not yet talked about. Good point about John not admitting his own blame in the Cromartie incident. It was only 2 episodes ago that he was outwardly blaming his mother for his killing of Sarkissian, so I think he's still got issues about accepting responsibility for his actions. -- The first time through the episode, I didn't catch that in the final dream Sarah was climbing down into Cromartie's grave. So I guess the significance there is that the empty grave leads to Dr. Sherman — it'll be him (not Ellison) through which Sarah finds out about Catherine. The thing I don't like about that is there's no way for Sarah to know that Sherman's connected to it, so there's no reason for her to put that together in a dream. Yeah, it could be random that all those came together — she was thinking about Cromartie missing and she'd recently visited Dr Sherman, and maybe the grave signified her own death worries too. But since Sherman actually is a link to Cromartie's body, it's mighty convenient that she connected them in her dream. -- Was anyone else really frustrated when John told Sarah he was sure that Ellison didn't take Cromartie's body? I was momentarily impressed that John immediately deduced that he took it (although I don't know why John said "only one person would be crazy enough to dig him up" - have we seen evidence of Ellison being that kind of crazy guy?). But he believed Ellison much too easily when they confronted him. Come on, John! Who else could have taken it?! Sure, you'd expect a person to give up the info upon being choked by a cyborg, but whoever took Cromartie's body is working against the Connors in the fight for the survival of the human race. So the stakes are big and they might be willing to give up their life over it. If that thought had occurred to John, he'd have let Cameron do whatever she was going to do to be sure and they'd have Cromartie's body back already. Now Ellison will totally get away with it (at least for a while). -- I loved that Sarah saved the turtle that was under the truck. It was helpless and unaware that it would get killed by big machine (the truck) if she hadn't flipped it over and moved it. So I'm thinking K8tie is right, that the turtle dream is more about the bowling alley kid (and innocents in general) than about John. The kid at the bowling alley was a victim of circumstance. Yes, he burglarized their house, but he had no idea the significance of that action. So Sarah saved him from the machine (Cameron). It unfortunately wasn't enough, though, because another machine (Cromartie) came along right after (although I'm not convinced that Cromartie actually killed that kid).
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Post by vicheron on Nov 18, 2008 19:14:09 GMT -5
John and Sarah's discussion about killing innocents is interesting. I was relieved that John is still committed to not killing unnecessarily. Sarah may be starting to weaken a little. I'm not sure what she'll do the next time there's a witness. John was still an putz in this scene. Mom spills her guts and takes the blame for leading Cromartie to the house. Meanwhile John smugly keeps the secret that Cromartie had already been to the house several days before. Sarah: It was my fault. John: What was your fault? Sarah: Cromartie I led him to you. John: What are you talking about? Sarah: There was this kid, a boy in the bowling alley. He was with the guys who broke into our house. I knew what I had to do John and didn't do it. I let him go. Cromartie must have found him. John: We're not murderers. <pause> You're not. Sarah: Tell it to the boy. I'm sure he's dead. I did chuckle at John's last line, but it was also a little odd. Does that mean both he and Sarah have now acknowledged that John murdered Sarakissian (as opposed to accidentally killing in self-defense)? That seems like a pretty big thing for them to have not yet talked about. Good point about John not admitting his own blame in the Cromartie incident. It was only 2 episodes ago that he was outwardly blaming his mother for his killing of Sarkissian, so I think he's still got issues about accepting responsibility for his actions. John is also covering for Cameron. The main reason why Cromartie was able find the Connors was because Cameron got arrested in "Allison of Palmdale." The police took Cameron's picture, which got into the system, allowing Cromartie to find the police station where Cameron got arrested. Cromartie then asked around and found out about the half-way house. After Jody told Cromartie about where Cameron was arrested, he asked around again and found out that Cameron was using the Baum alias. This allowed him to check on the credit watch system to find out that those thugs used the Baum credit card. If Cameron hadn't been arrested in "Allison of Palmdale" then Cromartie would have never found out the approximate location where they lived, he would have never found out that the Connors were using the Baum alias, and he would have never gotten to the boy in the bowling alley.
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t101
Major
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Post by t101 on Nov 18, 2008 19:49:36 GMT -5
Sarah knows Cameron is partly responsible. She saw the file.
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