rossbondreturns
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Post by rossbondreturns on Nov 18, 2008 19:51:15 GMT -5
Damn Dish for not being fixed till today...damn my not playing streaming video for crap internet connection...god Bless the DVD of the episode I'm now adding to my collection.
Still have not seen the episode yet.
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tom
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Post by tom on Nov 18, 2008 22:06:57 GMT -5
I think the first and the second dream are connected. In both Cameron is taking care of something. In the first Cam is giving strength to the cactus making it able to grab John. It could symbolize the (literal) rise of the machines that will take away John from her. In the Buddhist culture baby turtles mean health and life. So all those cradles could mean individual lives in general. In both dream Cameron could represent well, herself; something so human but from the enemy after all or she could impersonate faith itself. Faith that will bring the rise of the machines and the death of many people and she can do nothing but watch as it raises the machines as the cactus and "walks" by her and gives the people's lives into the machines hand. Many things can be seen into dreams, but I'm sure turtles mean life.
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Post by ga5speed02 on Nov 18, 2008 22:09:34 GMT -5
Old Fisher would continue to exist. The timeline he came back from does not cease to exist, but ceases to be the future that will occur for the current present. That's if you subscribe to the alternate timeline theory. No. Old Fischer would continue to exist, but as an "orphan" of a no longer operative timeline. In some sense all of our time traveling characters are temporal orphans, with memories of timelines that cease to exist because of their very actions. All Im saying is, that if you kill a person at say, age 18, they wont be alive in the future of any time line. They'd be dead. So he couldnt have come back. The same way Derek went back in time to kill Andy Good. That way Andy could not make the Turk and admit it to him the future.
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tom
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Post by tom on Nov 18, 2008 22:47:01 GMT -5
If you came back from the future to kill someone, then the person would still exist in the time line you came from, but killing him would create an another time line where he doesn't exist.
But if you're not traveling time, so you stay at your place and kill him it wouldn't create an another time line cause there was no future yet to alter. There would be just the only future when he doesn't exist.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Nov 18, 2008 23:19:11 GMT -5
Once again, there's absolutely NO logic at all to any of this time travel stuff because time travel is one of the few things I think is completely impossible.
So we just need to let most of that go. Even if you assume as many do that there are multiple existing time streams - in fact, an infinite number of time streams - where every time something happens a split is caused which involves a stream where the event did happen and a stream where the event did not happen - it's still bogus. It's highly unlikely the universe works that way.
In reality, time is merely a measure of relative motion in space. If relative motion in space didn't exist, time wouldn't exist. Time thus by definition is one way only - unless within some local area, you can force all energy and matter in that area to go in reverse.
Remember how in the first Superman movie, Superman reversed time by flying around the earth at light speed and actually REVERSING the movement of the earth and everything on it? Well, that's the ONLY way you can get any kind of time travel.
So just let it go. It doesn't make sense and it never will. It's a story telling gimmick.
As for the turtle, I interpreted that to mean that John was being extremely slow "coming out of his shell" to become the future leader of mankind - and that someone other than Sarah has to be the facilitator of that. Which of course still doesn't explain Cromartie in the dream. I could see Cameron being the one nursing John into becoming who he needs to be - Sarah is certainly doing a bang up job at that... But other than Cromartie being a stimulus to bring out the best in John, I don't see his role.
OTOH, maybe the turtle is supposed to represent Skynet. How Cameron is supposed to be the nursing mother to that, I don't know, unless you assume as I do that Catherine Weaver is trying to find Cameron to create Skynet from. That still doesn't explain Cromartie.
In fact, thinking about Ellison recovering Cromartie's body for Weaver, there's a small problem with that - HIS CHIP IS DESTROYED! So what good is his BODY? She can't even use his body to find Cameron since the information about the Connors and Cameron was in his chip!
The only thing I can think of is that Weaver is going to hook up Cromartie's body to "The Turk" for some unknown reason. Then perhaps Weaver will start looking for an intact Terminator chip - which means Cameron's since she's the only one left - and the only one who might have "crossed against the light."
Remember - Ellison now knows for sure that Cameron - "the girl from the bank" - is a Terminator working for the Connors. It's only a matter of time before he reveals that to Weaver, if she doesn't already know or manages to find out somehow from Cromartie.
Shirley Manson said in an interview that she gets what she wants and then does something "NASTY" with it. I'd say Cromartie's body is part of that, but it doesn't sound like the whole thing.
What if Weaver is going to implant Cameron's chip into Cromartie's body and then try to create Skynet from "The Turk" in Cromartie's body?
And we still don't know why Cameron kept the bar of coltan from season one - or where that bar is now after the events of episode one. Will it be used to repair Cromartie's face?
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tom
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Post by tom on Nov 18, 2008 23:56:55 GMT -5
Cameron's chip is different from the previous models. Even the socket is different so she can't just put it into Cromartie. But he has to do something with the Turk, cause there is a BTS picture of Cromartie sitting in a chair with the Turk in background. But his face was undamaged... Wasn't Cromartie a 888? That means he had 3 chips. Connors always referred to him as a "Triple eight in our ass" I asked this question a month ago, but it seems like it's a dead end. No one knows what's up with that coltan bar. Maybe Cameron had a chew on it - it's like Snickers for terminators
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rossbondreturns
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Post by rossbondreturns on Nov 19, 2008 0:05:15 GMT -5
A Snickernator? I buy that
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cyadon
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Post by cyadon on Nov 19, 2008 0:12:51 GMT -5
I asked this question a month ago, but it seems like it's a dead end. No one knows what's up with that coltan bar. Maybe Cameron had a chew on it - it's like Snickers for terminators The first part here is fact, but the rest after what the original Ep 10 of Season 1 was is purely speculation: Josh Friedman finally came out and said what Season 1 Episode 10 would have been. At least his first idea of it, anyways. It was 'The Crawl'. In the Jeep explosion, her legs would have been ripped off at the knees and it would have spent most of the episode with her struggling to get back to where Sarah and John are. The bar was set up to be used for later for repairs. With no need to repair her legs due to the plot changes brought on by the writer's strike, the bar was dropped much like the high school plotlines were. I imagine it's still sitting in the burnt out shell of the old Casa de Connor and Derek never bothered retrieving it when he grabbed their stuff.
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Post by vicheron on Nov 19, 2008 1:10:17 GMT -5
Once again, there's absolutely NO logic at all to any of this time travel stuff because time travel is one of the few things I think is completely impossible. So we just need to let most of that go. Even if you assume as many do that there are multiple existing time streams - in fact, an infinite number of time streams - where every time something happens a split is caused which involves a stream where the event did happen and a stream where the event did not happen - it's still bogus. It's highly unlikely the universe works that way. In reality, time is merely a measure of relative motion in space. If relative motion in space didn't exist, time wouldn't exist. Time thus by definition is one way only - unless within some local area, you can force all energy and matter in that area to go in reverse. Remember how in the first Superman movie, Superman reversed time by flying around the earth at light speed and actually REVERSING the movement of the earth and everything on it? Well, that's the ONLY way you can get any kind of time travel. So just let it go. It doesn't make sense and it never will. It's a story telling gimmick. It's not really a matter of logic as it is a matter of consistency. There's no logic to a lot of stuff in fantasy and sci-fi but they generally have consistency. If time travel yields a certain result in one episode then a similar situation in another episode should yield the same result. Ellison doesn't know what Weaver really want. He thinks that Weaver is trying to find a way to beat the Terminators and getting access to one, even one without a chip, can help with that goal. Ellison probably also knows that Uncle Bob was a Terminator too.
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Post by chrisimo on Nov 19, 2008 3:55:22 GMT -5
She's going to use Cromartie to FIND CAMERON - the only Terminator who can "cross against the light". The Turk can already cross against the light.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Nov 19, 2008 6:05:22 GMT -5
I don't know that Terminators have different chip sockets. I didn't notice any real difference between Vic's and Cameron's - but then I wasn't looking that closely. On the surface they all looked the same to me.
I wasn't aware that the Terminator series designation had anything to do with number of chips. 888 is just the series designation that really doesn't have any specific meaning, just like Arnold's T-850 really didn't. 600's had rubber skin, 850's had human flesh, 888's are just better infiltrators - and whatever Cameron is even better. But that doesn't mean the sockets are different. Although I wouldn't expect a T-1000 to have anything resembling a normal socket by definition.
Which is probably why Weaver can't use her chip to create Skynet (see comment below).
I DID suspect, however, that one reason John couldn't get any further info from Vic's chip last season - remember, John said he would get to a certain point and he'd be shut out - was that the chip only held relatively short term memory ("on chip" or "cache" memory as we'd call it today) and that the older information might be elsewhere - the equivalent of RAM (but persistent, unlike current RAM memory). If that's true, then Weaver might find out what she needs to know from Cromartie's long term memory banks.
Yes, the coltan being used to repair her legs in the now-defunct plot line makes sense. I guess we can forget about it.
But it does raise the possibility that either Cameron or Cromartie or both may have kept a Terminator chip - Vic's in Cameron's case and the Ellison Terminator in Cromartie's case - as some sort of "back up" or potential for "back up" of their own chips in case something happened to them. If that's technically possible - and I would suspect it is - it's something I would do if I were a Terminator operating without direct Skynet support on a mission in the past.
Yes, Ellison would have brought Cromartie's body to Weaver regardless of the chip. My point though is that the speculation that Weaver would use Cromartie to create Skynet is damaged by the fact that Cromartie's chip is gone.
I think this means Weaver will start looking for Cameron instead - the only other Terminator chip around at the moment, depending on what happened to the Ellison Terminator that Cromartie destroyed.
As for "The Turk", we really don't know yet that it CAN "cross against the light". Weaver may think so, but then she can't get it to work right, can she? Turning it into Skynet clearly is going to entail some more work. I think the only CPU around that really does cross against the light is Cameron - because she operates independently of both Skynet and John Connor. And that's the only Terminator who does as far as we know.
So I think it's pretty clear that Weaver is going to need Cameron to get "The Turk" to become Skynet. Cromartie's chip is gone, and obviously she can't use hers if for no other reason than there's no external linkage - which I find a bit odd, you'd think Terminators would have a way to link their CPU to external systems like John did with Vic's and Cameron's chips. Anyway she can't use her chip, apparently, probably because as a "liquid metal" machine, she has no actual physical chip just a fluid network that acts like a CPU.
It's not clear to me HOW Skynet is going to get created from any of the available systems, Turk or no Turk. But presumably the series is going in that direction somehow.
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Post by chrisimo on Nov 19, 2008 6:20:23 GMT -5
As for "The Turk", we really don't know yet that it CAN "cross against the light". Weaver may think so, but then she can't get it to work right, can she? Turning it into Skynet clearly is going to entail some more work. I think the only CPU around that really does cross against the light is Cameron - because she operates independently of both Skynet and John Connor. And that's the only Terminator who does as far as we know. I was referring to the Turk's behaviour. Remember that Weaver's team was successfull at the beginning in getting out results from the Turk. But over time the results got worse and it took more time to calculate them. Then suddenly, the Turk stopped doing their 'bidding' altogether and only put out riddles. That indicates some sort of free will to me. So I think it's pretty clear that Weaver is going to need Cameron to get "The Turk" to become Skynet. Cromartie's chip is gone, and obviously she can't use hers if for no other reason than there's no external linkage - which I find a bit odd, you'd think Terminators would have a way to link their CPU to external systems like John did with Vic's and Cameron's chips. Anyway she can't use her chip, apparently, probably because as a "liquid metal" machine, she has no actual physical chip just a fluid network that acts like a CPU. Why would Skynet send Weaver back to make her build Skynet? Skynet already has the ability to cross against the light in the future, so why would it need to send someone back to ensure that it can cross against the light? It already happened.
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Post by vicheron on Nov 19, 2008 6:37:51 GMT -5
Don't forget that Weaver made the whole "crossing against the light" speech when she was explaining why the Turk was worth so much money.
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tom
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Post by tom on Nov 19, 2008 13:45:25 GMT -5
Don't forget that Weaver made the whole "crossing against the light" speech when she was explaining why the Turk was worth so much money. That's true. And by not doing the given task, the Turk has already proven it can cross against the light. But the Turk is not behaving like it's planning to wipe out humanity yet. In the original plotline it was said the Turk got "emotional" because people wanted to terminate it, and that's why it turned against humans. I see the possibility that the Connors themselves will trigger JD by attempting to "kill" the Turk, but they fail, so it can strike back. And then all the Faith thing would make sense. Only in reverse; faith can not be changed.
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wb5
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Post by wb5 on Nov 19, 2008 17:24:48 GMT -5
Sarah knows Cameron is partly responsible. She saw the file. But John doesn't know that Sarah knows this (and Sarah doesn't know the details, either). I think that Cameron's malfunction - the full extent of it - as "Allison" will yet come out in the open in later episodes. Derek's reaction could be interesting, if he ever hears about it. Loved Cameron in this episode - her turning over Ellison showing she still doesn't quite "get" what John was trying to tell her, whe she asked about the turtle. speaking about turtle, I'm told this was an homage to Blade Runner (I need to see that movie). It's interesting that she seems to be worried that her kind in general and she in particular is perceived as being cruel. Kinda funny, giving what the Terminators have done/are doing/will do, but there appears to be a - slow - growth in Cameron regarding moral issues. Not sure what she was doing with John - still mimicking and attempting to seduce for some mission target (getting rid of "security problem" Riley?) - or genuine emotions? I like it that John has a hard time buying the latter, though. He should, after "Samson and Delilah". Over the course of both seasons so far, I think Cameron has actually grown to be a Terminator that is, in her own way, almost as creepy and menacing as most of the enemy Terminators. She is supposed to be a protector but between her glitches, her tendendy to murder people on a hunch and a possible hidden agenda that is not entirely clear, she is not quite the ever reliable "uncle Bob". The T800 simply obeyed John, but Cameron does her own thing and has her own interests, and even Sarah seems a bit afraid of her. The episode kept the suspense for quite some time; until close to the end, I suspected that the collaborator either was the one which took Cromartie's body (that this was his mission), or that he was innocent and Jesse was either wrong or doing something sinister herself. Loved the eventual reveal that this Jesse and this Derek are not from the same timeline, and the future "gray" still getting locked up (in prison, or was it a madhouse this time around?). One is left with a chicken-and-egg question regarding who tortured who, first. I thought they presented the issue of human collaborators in a believable way; both in that the machines didn't leave much choice, and that this particular guy must have had a desire for revenge on humanity (regardless of whatever got him in jail the first time around). Interestingly, Jesse said that nobody comes back without a mission (and sure enough, she turned out to be right in this case). I wonder if Derek registered this, that it doesn't quite rhyme with her "AWOL" story? Jesse is another intriguing character on this show. Ellison ended up doing the devil's work after all, so it seems. And the guy can take a beating pretty much like a Terminator can and he has nerves of steel as well! I'm curious to see what Weaver will do next, and what her end goals are; she may not be entirely in line with future Skynet with all her "crossing against the light" talk. I liked it that Sarah and John seem to be getting much closer again. Now that Sarah is "connecting the dots", she will probably get back on the trail of "The Turk", and probably end up learning something about Weaver.
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