02x11 Self Made Man

[t101]

I'm actually pro John having a girlfriend. It's just that: the first time he runs away from Cameron the one day he shouldn't = disaster. The second time he sneaks about with Riley = disaster. The third time he sneaks out to Mexico = disaster. And now it's at least implied he does so again. If he wants to hang out with her, they should write him more careful and responsible. He should not have trusted her with the alarm, he definitely shouldn't run across a freaking border alone just for fun and if his mother told Cameron to be extra vigilant with him one particular day there is a good reason for it.

I can see a repeat already.

Cameron: John you are putting yourself and Riley in danger. No one knew where you were all night.
John: I know, I'm not stupid.

Cameron: Yes you are. You are repeating the same mistakes that almost cost us dearly. That's what stupid people do.
John: Shut up Cameron. I will not be a virgin come Judgment Day!

[tom]

Cameron: Yes you are. You are repeating the same mistakes that almost cost us dearly. That's what stupid people do.
John: Shut up Cameron. I will not be a virgin come Judgment Day!

HAHA! That's the sh... right there! ;D

But, yes, the problem is not in John having a girlfriend but John not thinking about the consequences. And this whole "not telling a thing to the others" that's going on in the family is just make things worse.
I bet in this episode Sarah still doesn't know Cromartie stopped by at the house to say hi to John!

[DerekThomasReese]

I bet in this episode Sarah still doesn't know Cromartie stopped by at the house to say hi to John![/quote]

No because she would make them move once more and John wouldn't like that since he is dating Riley.

[nyccine]

Nov 9, 2008 16:31:35 GMT -5 traitorsgate said:

It's amazing that people are still bleating on about the fact that John Connor has, shock horror a girlfriend! Big deal, considering all the other things that the rest of them get up to that would potentially bring unwanted attention to Team Connor (for lack of a less pithy term) what John is doing pales in comparison.

Really? Really?
It's one thing for John to, in the midst of depression over his situation, accidentally put other people at risk in his pursuit of a normal life. I'll even give the writers a pass on John running to Mexico after the recent events with Chromartie.

But after what we know happens in the Mexico? We're waaaay beyond youthful indiscretion and immaturity, and edging pretty close to outright sociopathy; John has proof staring him in the face of what will happen to Riley if he keeps her in his life, it's no longer an abstraction. For him to continue the relationship is morally repugnant; it threatens to ruin any possible sympathy for the character.

[tom]

No because she would make them move once more and John wouldn't like that since he is dating Riley.

Damn, I didn't think about this! It was so obvious.

For him to continue the relationship is morally repugnant; it threatens to ruin any possible sympathy for the character.

It's not totally wrong morally. He could have a relationship if he knew how to prevent dangerous situations, what to tell the girl, when not to invite her over and how much he can trust in her.
It's true he's already little less sympathetic then in last season but I think it's not just because of Riley. He doesn't give a thing what his mother or Cameron tells him. If he could obey just a little he could avoid a lot of danger and would be a more likable character.
But it ain't gonna happen, he's a rebel in this season.

[rossbondreturns]

Of course no one is mentioning the other possibility.

That Riley after Mexico gets her stuff in gear and actually changes into more of a hardass herself. So John wanting this normal girl ends up getting someone turning from what he *THINKS* he wants and needs into a significantly less fraked up version of his Mother.

How would he react to that?

[chrisimo]

Nov 10, 2008 13:07:18 GMT -5 rossbondreturns said:

Of course no one is mentioning the other possibility.

That Riley after Mexico gets her stuff in gear and actually changes into more of a hardass herself. So John wanting this normal girl ends up getting someone turning from what he *THINKS* he wants and needs into a significantly less fraked up version of his Mother.

How would he react to that?

I think as long as she doesn't act like she is his mother he could be fine with that. She could even have some profound influence over him, which his mother -at the moment- does not have.

[t101]

Nov 10, 2008 13:07:18 GMT -5 rossbondreturns said:

Of course no one is mentioning the other possibility.

That Riley after Mexico gets her stuff in gear and actually changes into more of a hardass herself. So John wanting this normal girl ends up getting someone turning from what he *THINKS* he wants and needs into a significantly less fraked up version of his Mother.

How would he react to that?

I think that would be a pretty stupid move. Sarah and Cameron already fulfill that role on the show, there is also Jesse. Someone of these women has to play a normal girl who isn't cut out for this. We really don't need Riley trying to be another warrior woman.

[Deep Art Frummy]

Nov 10, 2008 13:54:26 GMT -5 t101 said:

Nov 10, 2008 13:07:18 GMT -5 rossbondreturns said:

Of course no one is mentioning the other possibility.

That Riley after Mexico gets her stuff in gear and actually changes into more of a hardass herself. So John wanting this normal girl ends up getting someone turning from what he *THINKS* he wants and needs into a significantly less fraked up version of his Mother.

How would he react to that?

I think that would be a pretty stupid move. Sarah and Cameron already fulfill that role on the show, there is also Jesse. Someone of these women has to play a normal girl who isn't cut out for this. We really don't need Riley trying to be another warrior woman.

Agreed.

If that happens, this show offically becomes a sitcom.

[sandrinha]

Nov 9, 2008 4:11:27 GMT -5 t101 said:

So does this mean John is still uncooperative even after his sneaking about led to disastrous consequences twice in a row? Even my tolerance of him is getting full.

It seems that way. I fear that the only way John is going to "learn" how to act with maturity and listen to others, is when he has to dig up a grave for Riley. Sometimes you need to loose a loved one to REALLY wake up, and the way John is this season it would fit the bill.

[k8ie]

Oy, the end of my rope, reached John Connor has... I was deeply hoping that "Mr. Ferguson..." would be the last of the 'John Connor acts like a selfish, irresponsible prat' episodes: I take it back, Cam. You should totally have offed him in episode one.

Not to mention, where's Sarah in all this? Hello? I keep reading that Sarah's supposed to be front and center, the show being called "The Sarah Connor Chronicles" after all but since Mousetrap, not so much.

[rossbondreturns]

Now now K8ie.

There's 22 Episodes this season plenty of time for more Sarah Centric episodes.

Though IMHO Sarah had her story Two Damned Times...it should have been called John Connor Chronicles...but since a series of books has that title they likely could not name it such.

[wb5]

Nov 10, 2008 19:07:05 GMT -5 k8ie said:

Oy, the end of my rope, reached John Connor has... I was deeply hoping that "Mr. Ferguson..." would be the last of the 'John Connor acts like a selfish, irresponsible prat' episodes: I take it back, Cam. You should totally have offed him in episode one.

Eh, "Mr Ferguson etc." hasn't even been broadcasted, and you already condemn John for what he supposedly will be doing in "Self made man"? What for exactly, that he kisses Riley? Surely that's no capital offence worthy of the death penalty? For all we know, Riley might be well aware of the score by then - and at the very least she knows John has some very dangerous enemies, by that time. John may be in danger, that doesn't mean he has to cut all ties to all humans other than Sarah and Derek.

[sarah]

Wow, guys, I think we're being too harsh on John. I was seriously annoyed with the promo/behind-the-scenes version of what John was doing in "Mr. Ferguson..." but when the show aired I was 100% on his side. Connor house claustrophobic much? Cameron was acting downright freaky, trying to manipulate him via seduction? Mom off in her own inner world of horrors, letting out the occasional brisque warning of doom? Derek MIA on secret rendez vouz w/his out-of-place girlfriend?

The too-up-close camera work in the bedroom scene alone was enough to make me cheer John along. For John to become the leader in a resistance he's going to need to take matters into his own hands -show obstinance, his own convictions, etc.- not become a more obedient and tame son. Just like Sarah! What makes her great is that she doesn't let a know-it-all robot boss her around or a veteran who's seen the future run her show! No, she'll mess up, sometimes big time, but she revels in that flawed independance "it's called being human". John definitely gets that quality from his mom.

On the other hand, everything Sarah does is part of her fight (inward and outward) against the machines. John isn't quite there yet. He has one foot firmly planted on either side: the normal world and the futuristic warfare. ---Which is an improvement, IMO, because as more lovable as John was in S1, he actually seemed to have both of his feet in the real world and was only along for the ride on his mom's coattail/apron string.--- Anyway, that means John will use his determination not just for defeating scary robots but also for preserving his ties to the real world (S1 that was Charley. This time he seems to be latching onto Riley).

Long story short, John does nothing dangerous in those photos. He's kissing a girl. When Derek kisses Jesse, darkhorse timetraveller w/secrets aplenty, he's doing something more dangerous than John. John also appears to be in a getaway vehicle under the watchful gaze of his terminator protector What could be more safe?

Also, what lesson is John supposed to learn by all the previous episodes? To become more like Sarah or Derek or Cameron? 'Cuz that's not going to happen --or shouldn't. Each member of the Connor band is deeply, near-fatally flawed in its way; they also each, happily, have thier own strengths. Sarah doesn't want John to be another Derek and Derek tries to kick the Sarah's protected son/Baum out of John and both don't want him to be more like Cameron while Cameron, Sarah, and Derek all need him to be on their sides. No one can win if John gives in. John has to blaze his own trail, find his own style. It won't be perfect but no one is. What it will be, once he's hit his stride, is victorious.

Btw, I think the description of Riley as being "quick on her feet" etc in her character profile explains how she'll survive as an associate of the group. Her grabbing the camera this ep and staring down Termy last ep (not to mention both her laudable lying skills & her insights into John -detecting tells) illustrate a certain level of street smarts that -while not abnormal- makes her less vulnerable than the usual innocent LI type.

Finally, I can't wait to find out Cameron's surprising secret. I was so sure it was something dark and evil at first because of how freaky she seemed to me in this ep but now that I'm seeing library pictures and a wheelchair-bound friend, maybe we're going to see some light shone on her good side again.

[nyccine]

Nov 10, 2008 11:18:24 GMT -5 tom said:

No because she would make them move once more and John wouldn't like that since he is dating Riley.

Damn, I didn't think about this! It was so obvious.

For him to continue the relationship is morally repugnant; it threatens to ruin any possible sympathy for the character.

It's not totally wrong morally. He could have a relationship if he knew how to prevent dangerous situations, what to tell the girl, when not to invite her over and how much he can trust in her.
It's true he's already little less sympathetic then in last season but I think it's not just because of Riley. He doesn't give a thing what his mother or Cameron tells him. If he could obey just a little he could avoid a lot of danger and would be a more likable character.
But it ain't gonna happen, he's a rebel in this season.

So, how many innocent bystanders have to die in order for John to "get his freak on" before you think it crosses the line? How many Mexican cops and civilians were killed/wounded as a result of his run away from home stunt? How many bullets were sent in Riley's general direction?

We're far past the point where John's risk to others is purely an abstract concept; he is staring directly at the proof of the danger he presents to other people. Does Riley have to have her slit throat by a T-888 that stares directly at John and says "this was entirely your fault for being completely selfish, not to mention retarded." before the writers allow him to "get it"? The character is rapidly losing any sympathy he may have by going this route.