schmacky
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Post by schmacky on Jan 20, 2009 1:16:58 GMT -5
Or about half of Shakespeare's plays. :-) Exactly! People have copied the drama of Shakespeare one too many damn times that it's become horrible. It's like morphing... people get tired of it if used too much. Besides, it'd be totally OOC for Derek to do that and that's where the bad movie part comes in. |
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Post by thecolours on Jan 20, 2009 2:01:14 GMT -5
Secondary thought. Riley death, Cameron betrayal, Sarah leaving: How they all tie-in together. Cameron betrays John by killing Riley. This pisses John off, because he explicitly tells Cameron not to harm Riley when they first learn about her involvement with Jesse. Then, figuring their cover is blown, Jesse and Derek put their plan into action to kill Cameron. Knowing that John has feelings for Cameron, Jesse convinces Derek to 'grab and bag' him, so Cameron will inevitably be forced into a trap when she tries to rescue him. John, Cameron and Sarah theorize this possibility, and they agree John must go completely underground, not even they know his whereabouts. (Explains him being all alone from the women in his life.) Sarah leaves John behind, and helps Cameron kill Jesse and Derek. John decides he's going to take matters into his own hands; he kills Jesse, but spares Derek's life. You're telling me Derek is going to betray his nephew, kidnap him and then John will help to kill his uncle? That sounds like a really bad movie. "Lie to me again, and I'll kill you." Sarah to Derek in 'What He Beheld' John is ignorant to Sarah and Cameron's plans to kill Jesse and Derek, since he's in hiding, and observing radio silence. Under his own fruition, he decides to hunt down Jesse and kill her. Besides, Derek has betrayed John by not telling him about Jesse's plan to kill Cameron. Jesse has Derek wrapped around her finger. She's very manipulative. Look at what she has done to Riley. I wouldn't put it past her to convince Derek that 'kidnapping' John is in his own best interest. Especially, if Derek believes that with Cameron gone, John will better off, and in a better frame of mind to lead the resistence. |
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Post by littleb on Jan 20, 2009 9:59:58 GMT -5
Why do a TV show about the character the movies were done with, only to go the same way? I want to watch the John Connor Chronicles, I'll watch T4. Which is another reason I think Sarah'll be sticking around. This kinda goes with the discussion over in the Sarah as Protagonist? thread. I don't think it was ever a solo lead per se, but - judging from the original press release - they did intend for it to be viewed as Sarah's story. And yet the show has managed to write another 20+ hours of her character and she's still changing, still worth watching and I'm still cheering her on. Was it really down to that or down to actress willingness/availability? If it was truly down to them not being able to write for Sarah then that's kinda sad and smacks of a lack of imagination. T3 reminded me of Alien3 where you've rooted for Newt and Hicks and Ripley through Aliens and then they're just casually killed off in an aside because they couldn't be arsed to do anything with them. I only watched the movie once. It was watchable, kinda fun while it was on but I only really remember it for it's incredibly brave, downbeat ending. They don't seem to be struggling. The characters don't need to make huge, life-defining changes every other episode. Most of the time, the way they react to what's happening around them, the way they deal with the plots, the twists, the upsets, new alliances, betrayals etc is interesting enough. YMMV. I guess I'm not really looking for TSCC to evolve into T3/4. IMO the show is stronger when they're working together, not in isolation. The relationship between Sarah and John is one of show's biggest draws for me. |
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Post by thecolours on Jan 20, 2009 12:03:58 GMT -5
I thought it was interesting that everything Dekker told Dekker_daily falls in line with what he said in an interview at Horror-fest.
Dekker at Horror-fest. "If we go for a wonderful third new year, it's going to be like a whole new show."
And with John separated from all the women from his life, that would definitely constitute as a whole new show.
I don't know if what Dekker said was mis-direction, or not. But, it also doesn't contradict what he's been saying in past interviews.
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Post by terminatornerd on Jan 20, 2009 12:43:14 GMT -5
The Dekker Daily link has been taken down. Either it was stealthy blitzkrieg PR or Thomas did something he was not supposed to... since he seemingly likes to jabberjaw to get attention.
I still think separating John and Cameron for too long will further errode the viewership. People were upset they've been pulled apart this season... so another season of them apart would be a catastrophe!
Face it, the shippers are the VAST majority of the audience. They want them to be together. It's the hope that we're looking for.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the writers have listened to our bitch 'n' moan sessions.
Then that means Sarah Connor is the one who dies. There was mention that the big death would lead to John and Cameron becoming closer. Unless things have changed then maybe they're eliminating most everybody and sticking with the audience choice:
John and Cameron and their further adventures. Sarah stays on in voice over every so often... guiding the story along.
If it's Cameron who decides to strike out on her own, maybe she thinks they need a time apart. John will realize how much he needs her. And maybe Cameron will realize how much John means to her.
Then the resistance team working AGAINST John Connor threatens him and Cameron charges back to rescue him. Or... Cameron is captured and John goes to get her back.
This might take place in the first couple of S3 episodes, and then they hook up for the rest of Season 3. The chemistry and biplay is brought back as Cameron helps shape John into a commander and tech wizard to be proud of. And that companionship turns to true love as they work to take down Skynet with purpose and drive.
Cameron finally finds her heart. Team Connor is John and Cameron side by side fighting tooth 'n' nail with every resource they have between the two to save mankind. Derek is like a backup... or he works on his own volition with his own goals.
A whole new... exciting, fun, and thrilling ride... with elements of "The Fugitive" and "The Incredible Hulk" thrown in with positive messages as the two travel around, they help people and Cameron (and the audience) learn valuable lessons about HUMANITY and the human condition.
These concepts have been pretty much GONE this season. S3 MUST get them back!
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rossbondreturns
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Post by rossbondreturns on Jan 20, 2009 14:01:29 GMT -5
littleb: Sarah was not included in T3 the major reason being that her character wouldn't have had any arc. In a Two hour film withwith 4-7 major characters and another 15 or so minor ones a character must have a defining arc to make any kind of headway.
Sarah's major changed had already taken place in T2. As I said it's not likeshe's going to change her worldview or do anything noteworthy to include her. And Linda wanted a beefy part which once again would've been difficult to write because what can she do to continue the character?
Sarahs film arc would have become a retread or more of the same and the character would've become stagnant. Which no one wants.
In SCC they have also had difficulty as far as I'm concerned making the Sarah character memorable. Or for that matter change in any significant way. In fact to be honest the best Sarah moments have been (for me) have been when she's exploring her motherly side.
The episodes when she plays on the hardass side have been distinctly hit and miss for me. Thankfully Earthlings was a hit so it left a good taste in my mouth, but there is only so much that the Sarah badass part can do. It certainly hasn't evolved very much because it really can't.
Therein lies the problem of writing for Sarah Connor.
As much as I like writing badass Sarah the only thing that changes is the locale. Her reasoning is pretty much set about machines, and why she's doing things. There's nothing new there.
Having her become more distant and helping John to be able to blossom as leader will actually help accentuate that Mother Warrior of her. And is to me the one thing that would make the character more interesting.
I apologize for going slightly off topic.But I needed to discuss both iterations of Sarah in order to make my point. That said I always try to stay on topic. Sorry for Filmic interruption. Ross
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Post by allergygal on Jan 20, 2009 14:30:16 GMT -5
MOD NOTE: Speculating about whether or not Sarah dies and how that might play into the story is fine, but let's not get too far off topic. This seems to be delving a bit much into film talk now, which should done in the Terminator Films Discussion thread
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wb5
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Post by wb5 on Jan 20, 2009 18:48:13 GMT -5
Truth be told, I think this show could use a shakeup like this and it will cut down on the excessive amount of characters on this show. Excessive amount of characters on this show? They have, like, 8-9 (semi)regular characters. Shows like BSG have a lot more. They don't need to kill people just to lessen the number of actors (unless it's about the money, which would mean the shows budget has been lowered significantly). I don't want the stories to focus on the very same characters week after week. Not too happy with the spoilers - I hope they're not entirely true, at least exaggerated somewhat. Bringing back Charlie only to have him die? Not good IMO. And the betrayal-leaving-dying thing? I hope they're not going for a fake death - like killing Cameron but bringing back another copy, a la BSG. It didn't work, IMO, when Athena replaced Boomer and it wouldn't work for me now either. Killing the title character? Difficult to imagine, even if Blake's 7 (which is getting remade, by the way) did it. Riley could do any of the choices, but it's very hard to see Sarah leaving or betraying John. Cameron betraying John sounds too much like a repeat of "Samson and Delilah", and Cameron dying (for real) is madness as far as ratings goes. Leaving could be possible, if she really starts thinking completely for herself she could want to do her own thing. But that would pretty much leave Sarah to either betray him or die... If it is intentional misleading just to stir interest, then this is no way to treat the fans IMO. Edit: now I have listened to the "Dekker tapes" myself, he didn't sound that drunk when he said it. Some observations: he also said he would fight resistance fighters, send back to stop him - those in league with Jesse, I presume. This seems to indicate he will not agree with them to kill or dump Cameron - which would make it odd if Cameron would leave him, then. The way he mentioned "Lenageek" at the end, he does seem to hint it will be Sarah who dies. So, would it be Sarah who dies, Riley who leaves him and Cameron who betrays him (but in what way?). Or would Cameron leave him (because she wants the fight between John and a resistance faction to end, she removes herself) and Riley betray him? In the first "tape" though, Thomas says it slightly different: here he only says John will be on his own, and the three women are on their own. The latter doesn't seem to be compatible with one of those three being dead. He may still be pulling a fast one on us, or some of those labels ("dead", "betray") may be exagerated. |
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Post by richardstevenhack on Jan 21, 2009 7:57:28 GMT -5
I have noticed that some fans seem to like the idea of every show revolving around Sarah, John, Cameron and Derek and that's it. There are shows such as "Fringe" and the "X-Files" which have done that successfully. So I'm not against it.
But adding Charley to the team is hardly expanding the show beyond all reason compared to other shows.
I'm not buying that Derek does anything directly against John. He's too loyal, despite his misgivings about John's behavior and the presence of "metal". That's why I wouldn't be surprised if he was the one who killed Jesse when he finds out she lied to him and betrayed him and John about Riley.
But I can also see John taking down Jesse. That would agree with what Tom said about "fighting the resistance faction" - basically he's just talking about Jesse, because he also said as far as he knows nobody else comes through the time machine in the back nine.
Sarah might well kill Derek for lying to her, but I doubt it unless Derek's involvement in Jesse's plot puts John at actual risk. And I don't think she'd end up planning Derek's murder with Cameron - way out of character.
I don't think Cameron would kill Riley behind John's back, either. She knows that would upset him. He gets upset if she even talks to Riley or about Riley. She may have trouble understanding the complexities of human interaction still, but she's not that dumb.
Ditto Cameron killing Derek - unless he actually attacked her with or without Jesse. But Cameron would kill Jesse in a heartbeat once she finds out what the plot is.
We also don't know how much of this is set in motion by John himself. Perhaps he tells Cameron to leave over Riley, instead of Cameron leaving him on her own initiative. This would seriously cause CPU overload with Cameron since she needs him as much as he needs her. But if he forces her away, she'd have to go - a little ways, anyhow. She'd revert to being an infiltrator and be constantly following him around unbeknownst to him until she found out what was really going on. Eventually he'd get a clue and bring her back.
Assuming Tom is right and John gets smart and figures out the deal with Riley and Jesse, he could keep his knowledge under wraps until he sees a way out. Sending Cameron away might end up a ploy to satisfy Jesse and Derek while at the same time John plots to take Jesse down.
I do like stories where the ending is such that you think the hero has totally screwed up and lost and then he suddenly pulls a rabbit out of the hat that he'd been planning for half the movie unbeknownst to the audience. Like the James Woods movie, "Diggstown". The ending in that one was a corker. It would definitely boost John Connor's rep with the fans if he can do that.
Again, as for Sarah being the protagonist, no, she's the POV. The franchise has always been about Sarah, John (or Kyle in T-1) and a Terminator (good or bad). Break that dynamic up and you've got no show.
Also, we should remember that people who leave can come back, and people who betray can be forgiven or discovered not to have actually done so. Only people who die generally stay dead (outside of vampire and zombie movies, anyway.)
I still see Riley as the one who dies, since once she's exposed, what good is she to anybody including herself? Especially what purpose does she serve on the show then?
Jesse will die because she deserves to.
As for Sarah, I think there's room for change simply because John will be changing. So she has to change. She changed once from waitress to bad ass soldier. Once John moves on, and perhaps Charley comes back into her life, she can change again from bad ass soldier to mother and wife (well, bad ass mother and wife) - or as I like to refer to her, the "MILF From Hell." ;D ;D She can lose some of her craziness and become the Wise Mother as John grows up.
And I kinda doubt Derek is going to die. He may have been led around by the nose by Jesse and his own hatred and fear of Cameron, but unless he really screws up and allows John to be placed in danger, I don't see that being enough justification for killing off one very popular character. He might get his butt kicked - by Sarah or Cameron - and I'd like to see that! ;D - but I don't think they'll kill him just for being gullible.
I don't think Sarah has to be killed off in order for John to come into his own either. What does have to happen is a confrontation at some point where he takes charge and puts his mother on notice that they are now equals, not parent and child. In other words, the same sort of scene they did when he reactivated Cameron in episode one. He did it, he pointed his gun right at his mother, and they couldn't stop him. They even seemed afraid of him. We need another stronger episode like that where he finally breaks away and takes charge of his own life.
And when that happens, Derek will fall into line.
And also when that happens, only then is the dynamic between John and Cameron likely to take off, because right now he's too adolescent about his feelings about her, and she's too manipulative of him and more adult than he is. Once he comes into his own, all that would change.
Well, only 24 more days,
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Post by allergygal on Jan 22, 2009 2:34:15 GMT -5
perhaps Charley comes back into her life, she can change again from bad ass soldier to mother and wife (well, bad ass mother and wife) And I kinda doubt Derek is going to die. Thomas doesn't say anything about Derek dying — he says Charley dies. So unless he's giving us foilers, there's no chance Sarah is going to be leaving John to go play house with Charley (that would've been really OOC for Sarah anyway). |
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Post by richardstevenhack on Jan 22, 2009 20:03:27 GMT -5
Yeah, I know Tom didn't say anything about Derek. But somebody here suggested Derek might be killed as part of the resolution of the Jesse plot. I was saying that wasn't likely unless his actions unwittingly put John at risk, in which case Sarah might blow him away out of anger.
As for Charley, I was suggesting that Sarah could make another change in her persona IF Charley came back. But if Tom wasn't faking about Charley dying, well, that does sort of eliminate that option. And that puts us back to the issue of whether Sarah will die because she can't change any more in the series.
Again, I see killing off Charley as a lack of imagination on the part of the writers. Unless there were reasons concerning other projects for Dean, personally I think adding Charley to the team would have been the best course for the reasons I've cited elsewhere.
Hopefully the writers will have somebody interesting added to the show to compensate for losing Charley.
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schmacky
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Post by schmacky on Jan 23, 2009 1:01:37 GMT -5
Hopefully the writers will have somebody interesting added to the show to compensate for losing Charley. If Charley does die, I don't see the point in bringing in yet another character to replace him. Charley's been gone for the last 10 episodes and while I liked the character, his presence hasn't been exactly missed in the overall scheme of things. At least missed enough to warrant a new character to compensate for losing him. |
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Post by allergygal on Jan 23, 2009 1:28:47 GMT -5
Hopefully the writers will have somebody interesting added to the show to compensate for losing Charley. If Charley does die, I don't see the point in bringing in yet another character to replace him. Charley's been gone for the last 10 episodes and while I liked the character, his presence hasn't been exactly missed in the overall scheme of things. At least missed enough to warrant a new character to compensate for losing him. I agree. As much as I loved Charley, he's been gone too long now to notice an absence. And the emotional impact of his character is faded too, I think. It's not like with Kyle. Sarah may have loved Charley, but it was 6 months out of her life and it's now been somewhere around 8 months since she's even seen him (in show time). And while, yeah, she only knew Kyle for 2 days 17 years ago, that relationship was considerably more significant. I could be wrong, though. They might turn it around and make Charley mean something again to Sarah before he dies. And if so, it'll be interesting to see if that plays into whatever her outcome is of the leave/betray/die. ETA: I was just thinking how Charley's death could circle back to Dungeons & Dragons. Sarah threatened to take cameron apart piece by piece if she touched Charley. So what if Cameron does kill him? She's a little unpredictable these days with that damaged chip. And Sarah might make good on that promise and "kill" her. John might see that as a betrayal, but then that would leave Riley as the one who leaves which seems like a rather weak ending for her. Eh, I don't know. |
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Post by richardstevenhack on Jan 23, 2009 10:05:15 GMT -5
Nah, Cameron won't kill Charley. He really isn't much of a threat, just a loose end.
And she's already been told what will happen to her if she does. If they did something like that and blamed it on her chip damage, I would be quite PO'd since it would be shabby treatment of the character. That chip damage thing is hopefully played out and done with.
The problem I have is with Kyle coming back. He hasn't been important since T-1. He hasn't done much of anything in the first two seasons either except play second fiddle to Derek. So I see dragging him in as considerably less interesting than Charley, particularly since Kyle pretty much has to stay both in the past and the future, not the present. I would much prefer to see Charley kept on than start a track with Kyle which can only be disruptive because it has to be some sort of trick. It's OK to have him show up in Sarah's hallucinations for an episode or two, but beyond that I can't see how they can shoehorn him into the present situation without doing a lot of bending and twisting.
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Alexis
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Post by Alexis on Jan 25, 2009 2:30:08 GMT -5
I like the original cast (actually, I like the dynamic created when they introduced Derek Reese, too). I'll keep watching as long as Sarah's around because she's the character I identify with but I would be very unhappy to see any of the original trio leave and only marginally less unhappy if Derek Reese were to die. That said, I'd say Riley dies, Cameron betrays John and Sarah leaves him. I totally agree with you, K8ie. I made a post on 'Leven Discusses Back 9' just a few minutes ago with the same idea  |
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