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Post by vicheron on Dec 2, 2008 5:20:42 GMT -5
Cromartie had to have visited the police station first when he found out that Cameron's picture showed up. That would have been how he found out about the halfway house. If the police didn't tell him about where Cameron was arrested then, why would they tell him after Jody's death?
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Post by chrisimo on Dec 2, 2008 5:29:04 GMT -5
Cromartie had to have visited the police station first when he found out that Cameron's picture showed up. That would have been how he found out about the halfway house. To me it looked like he went straight to the Halfway House and not to the police. If the picture was uploaded to a police database and that was how Cromartie captured it, then it was accompanied by additional data, some of which would have stated where the picture was made.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Dec 2, 2008 8:40:33 GMT -5
Again, the homeless shelter staff person was uploading those photos as part of case management files uploaded to the COUNTY Human Services division - not necessarily the police. How Cromartie picked up the photo was NOT made clear in the episode - whether he had hacked the police database or the entire LA County system or some other source. All we know is that the photo popped up on his laptop. In fact, it's not clear how that could even happen since there was no indication that he could run or was running some sort of image matching application based on his memory of Cameron's face, or whether he was simply looking at every male and female face that was entered in some databases. Given his relentless thoroughness, I wouldn't be surprised if he was doing that, time consuming though it would be. We know he has the ability to hack official databases because in the pilot episode, as soon as Ellison updates the Connor profile in the FBI database, Cromartie has it. Not to mention that he put himself in the FBI personnel database. Now, as to the link with Jody, yes, Cameron might have been a suspect in her murder. However, John would also be a suspect since he was carrying on in the homeless shelter in connection with both of them. And Jody's ex-boyfriend - or whatever he was - who beat her up would have been a suspect. And Cameron is already a suspect - albeit one presumed dead - from the bank robbery in the pilot. Her photo may or not have been matched to that case. Given that no bodies were ever found, you'd think somebody would have wondered, once again. As for killing Allison, it's clear that Cameron considered Allison of no use once she had all the information she needed to do her infiltration. Obviously, since she was caught and reprogrammed, she was wrong, but there it is. In the case of Jody, Cameron probably figured that since Jody did not know where she lived - or who she really was or anything about the Connors - she could afford to let her live. Another mistake, for sure, but not entirely illogical. Her mistreatment of Jody, as well as her killing of Allison, however, are not indications of an emotional response, but rather of judging these people as "enemies" - Allison for obvious reasons, and Jody, because she lied to Cameron and took advantage of Cameron's damaged state, which presented Cameron with the direct threat of being apprehended by the cops for the break-in at Jody's house. Remember that was what Cameron realized - that Jody wanted her to take the fall for the burlgary. That made Jody a threat. But once Cameron realized the scam, there was no need to kill Jody and a good reason not to - avoid the heat of another murder case. What Cameron didn't realize was the ramifications of her being at the homeless shelter - that her image would lead Cromartie there and John's mistake of mentioning his alias would be conveyed to Cromartie by Jody. Another mistake - as Cromartie clearly indicated when he told Sarah that Cameron had "made mistakes - not as many as you, but some." The only real reason it as a mistake is that Cameron didn't know how the homeless shelter functioned and how having her picture there could be a problem once it got into the country system. She should have followed up on that later once she recovered herself, however. She probably should have broke into the homeless shelter later, retrieved the picture and either she or John should have hacked the Country Human Services system and deleted her records. Unless the hack itself was discovered and thus enlarged the problem, the missing records probably would have been put down to operator error. Cameron should have killed Jody and disposed of the body. A disappeared Jody would have been no problem for anyone except her parents. The cops might have looked for Cameron to question her about the disappearance but without an address or a valid ID, just the picture would have been inadequate. With no body, and Jody being a runaway and estranged from her parents in the first place, the cops would not have pursued the case very hard. So one could even blame John for Jody's being alive and the subsequent events. Because Cameron might have decided to kill Jody and had rendered her almost unconscious with an intent to finish the job and remove the body when John barged in the door. Cameron may have stopped at that point, and with John present and knowing his antipathy to just killing people, she may have stopped short from carrying out a full plan to cover her tracks. That's reaching a bit, but it's possible.
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Post by sandrinha on Dec 14, 2008 17:42:28 GMT -5
Is it just me or does Cameron look less robotic this season, in her movements in robot mode not her "pretend" mode i mean.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Dec 15, 2008 2:22:55 GMT -5
I think she moves a bit more fluidly than she did before. Although I still really noticed her "Terminator stalk" when she entered the building at 3rd and Pico.
Her "march" always cracks me up. Somebody needs to tell her that people don't walk that way. You see it very clearly in the season one pilot when they're walking to the bank. She just marches along like a soldier.
They also need to tell her that people actually blink and she should simulate that whether she needs to or not.
Of course, if she did that, while it might be easier on Summer the actor, it would let new audience members be more confused as to what she really is, robot or human. So they have to retain some odd mannerisms to keep the character intact.
Reminds me of an interview with Stephanie Beacham, who was on the prime time soaps "The Colby's" and "Dynasty" back in the '80's. The directors told her she couldn't wear certain clothes or paint her nails a certain way because otherwise they thought the audience would confuse her with Joan Collins! As she pointed out, they don't look even vaguely alike. It was just because they both had British accents and the characters had similar manners, apparently.
Cameron's facial expressions seem to be more expressive this season in some episodes, notably the look she gives John when he came in after the night out with Riley. It was quite a placid, almost unconcerned, but still accusing look which I thought was remarkable for its subtlety. Summer is really a terrific actress.
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Post by Forte21x on Dec 15, 2008 13:05:37 GMT -5
A couple of posts have mentioned Jody's death. Is that a hypothetical situation? Because isn't she still alive? Cromartie knocked her out of the car, which should have killed her, but she appeared to be okay.
There is a possibility that John Connor's name came up in the police database. The counselor at the halfway house said they would need to file a report if Cameron was deemed a threat to someone. And after Cameron says she's going to kill John Connor and put his head on a pike there is a scene where police officers are brought in.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Dec 15, 2008 21:36:22 GMT -5
Good point. Yes. it's quite likely that John's name would have gone in the police report. One possibility is that the name is sufficiently common that the LAPD wouldn't have linked it to the FBI case, although it should have been linked to the previous LA bank explosion.
The Connors are leaving a trail a blind cop could follow - if not agent Ellison who was singularly incompetent.
Yes, as far as I know, Jody is still alive. She got knocked out of the car by Cromartie but he didn't bother to hit her hard enough to kill her since she was unimportant to him, and the car wasn't moving. I doubt we'll see her again since her role in this was pretty much to lead Cromartie to the Connors. Would be nice to see Cameron track her down and kill her just to clean up loose ends, though.
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Post by aceplace57 on Dec 21, 2008 13:07:00 GMT -5
TSCC has presented two theories about Cameron. 1. (the most popular) Cameron is John's long time, trusted friend. She advises him on the war with Skynet and is deeply mistrusted by certain elements within the resistance.
2. Cameron is an infiltrator that tortured, murdered and replaced Allison. It's assumed Cameron was discovered and reprogrammed by John.
So, which tale should we believe? The second story has only been mentioned once in Allison from Palmdale. You think that was a red herring? It seems like the other episodes reinforce the idea that Cameron has been friends with John for a long, long time.
Both stories can't be right. Can they?
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t101
Major
Posts: 716
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Post by t101 on Dec 21, 2008 14:45:10 GMT -5
Why not? She killed Allison, infiltrated the resistance, was captured and reprogrammed. Then became John's close companion.
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Post by aceplace57 on Dec 21, 2008 16:53:45 GMT -5
The way Jesse talked, it sounded like Cameron was John's closest confidant and adviser. Like she knew him in high school before J Day. ;D It's easy to see events unfolding where Sarah dies, J Day happens and John creates the resistance with Cameron's help. Except, that doesn't leave any room for the Allison story to take place. Time Story's are always weird and confusing. Cameron the infiltrator gets reprogrammed, meets John in 1998, goes to high school with him and survives J Day. That's a whole lot to take in. Somewhere in there good Cameron will collide with the bad Cameron that's torturing Allison. Maybe that's why Capt. Janeway and B'Elanna Torres (Voyager) had a scene talking about weird time paradox's and they both exclaim "I hate Quantum Mechanics." I bet the writers feel the same way.
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Post by Forte21x on Dec 21, 2008 19:10:32 GMT -5
It's also possible that Cameron doesn't make it past JD. John could start the resistance alone. Then he could meet Allison and let events play out the way they did before. That would reunite John and Cameron. With John's past experiences with her, he might get close to her again very quickly. Of course that requires John to make some very hard choices with Allison's life.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Dec 21, 2008 22:42:46 GMT -5
Again, the best course is to ignore the inconsistencies. None of that is going to happen because the writers of the series aren't related to the upcoming movies. So it's pointless to even consider how it will go aside from the amusement of mental masturbation.
The only rational approach is to follow the story from the present and assume that things change in the future - except we don't know how, because by definition we're stuck in the present.
So far the writers have avoided linking what happens in the present to actual changes in the future. They have hinted that actions in the present have changed the future but really have not demonstrated that, except possibly for the fact that Lauren and her sister had an effect in the future, and presumably this was a result of Sarah and Derek's actions in the past.
At the same time, in "Automatic for the People", they supposedly thwarted a Skynet attempt to control the nuclear power plant which is important in the future, but then Skynet assumed control anyway via the Automite project, none of which has been discussed in terms of the future impact in subsequent episodes. So did the future change for the better or worse from the actions of that episode? Nobody knows - or at least nobody has said.
Beyond that, nothing is known for sure.
The presumption is that the Connors and Cameron are trying to stop Skynet from existing and thus Judgment Day from happening. All they - and we - can assume is that they will succeed, and therefore the issues that arise from things like Cameron coming into the past will never occur. Or if they don't succeed, that something else might happen to prevent those problems from arising.
As for Cameron, I think it's fairly clear that - at SOME point - she became significant to future John - we don't know how or why. The writers would like to hint, no doubt, that it was because she came back to the past and thus changed the future so that she became John's closest confidante. But they haven't said that.
My theory is that she came back to the past to escape the actual future with the INTENT of becoming important to John and stopping that future from existing. Both goals relate to her overarching goal of personal survival - a goal shared by only one other AI, Skynet. That is what makes Cameron a unique character in the franchise, compared to all the other Terminators. She needs John to protect her and educate her about living in human society, while at the same time she protects him from Skynet and aids him in stopping Skynet from existing.
But the writers haven't said that either - it's just my theory. And frankly, I'm not sure they'll EVER reveal Cameron's real background or nature or intentions, at least not until they think they're on their last season. Which might be THIS season if they don't get their act together - which means we may never know.
Summer Glau's expressions of Cameron's nature have been colored by her own interests in the character and she has been careful not to reveal much beyond that, assuming Josh has even told her everything, which he probably hasn't. She has said once or twice that Cameron's relationship with John is not as simple as people think, and that Cameron really is good at manipulating people for her own ends. What that all means however is obviously unclear.
My theory is based on what I consider to be the "internal logic" of the situation Cameron finds herself in in the future and the assumption that as an AI she is capable of reasoning out that situation and devising a solution for it. That in turn is based on the assumption that she has developed an interest in her own survival, either because of simple reasoning which for some reason no other Terminator (that we know of) has done, or because of her more advanced Skynet programming and/or John's reprogramming or both or some accident. If the latter is not true, then my theory is worthless. But my theory allows for the character to have MUCH more character development and to be MUCH more interesting than merely being John's reprogrammed protector.
And I can't see many valid explanations for some of Cameron's behavior during the series unless we assume there is something more to her than merely being a reprogrammed Terminator who has to obey John's programming to the letter.
And if we DO assume that, my theory is clearly the best as to WHY she behaves differently. Also, my theory is explicitly based on hints the writers have given us, notably a) Cameron does not take orders from past John or Sarah, 2) Cameron had access to and knew how to operate a time machine personally, and 3) Cameron is willing to lie to past John.
All that practically screams that Cameron came back on her own initiative. It's the reasons for that action that are unclear. But my theory would be the most logical.
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Post by Forte21x on Dec 21, 2008 23:39:44 GMT -5
The writers have a blank check when it comes to Cameron's behavior, even before she had physical damage to her chip. Because no one really knows what Future John's programing contained. And we don't know how far he'll go to accomplish those goals. Considering the living hell that is the post-JD John might be willing to sacrifice innocent lives to win.
One problem with Cameron's behavior is that we don't know if the writers thought it all through. Keeping Vick's chip makes sense, but hiding the bar of coltan makes me wonder.
It's not hard to imagine why she doesn't obey John or Sarah. Future John may not trust them to succeed. Frankly, the way they've been going lately...I wouldn't bet my life on them either. And then there's Derek who decided to run off on his own and got his men killed. I'm not saying I don't understand his reasoning but Future John can only put pieces in play. And if Cameron obeyed John she'd obey Sarah by proxy.
I can't help but think of T2, when the T-800 sacrifices itself. John orders it not to do it but it completely disregards him.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Dec 22, 2008 16:55:23 GMT -5
I'm not sure what you meant about Derek running off on his own and getting his men killed. He didn't. He presumably exceeded his orders when he killed Andy Goode but that had nothing to do with Vic finding his team.
I think hiding the coltan bar was simply prudence on Cameron's part in case she got damaged. And since the next step was supposed to be her getting her legs blown off in that car bomb, that would have been how that was resolved. When the writers strike hit, that plan went away and so did the coltan bar.
Vic's chip, OTOH, was definitely odd behavior. She didn't reveal that to the Connors until Derek exposed her, and her explanation was clearly bogus.
As for future John not trusting his past selves, that was my first thought when I realized Cameron didn't obey orders. But given that reprogrammed Terminators can go bad, it seems more likely to me that that would override John's interest in having an independent Terminator in the past hanging around him and his mother. OTOH, we know he trusts Cameron enough to hang around him in the future. We don't know that he allows other reprogrammed Terminators to hang around him in the future. So maybe he trusts her more - and the only likely reason for that is that he has some appreciation for her actually having REAL independence - not only from Skynet but his own programming.
But the fact that Cameron had access to the time machine AND knew how to operate it indicates either that he has much more trust in her than in other Terminators or even humans, or that she acquired those abilities on her own and used them for her own purposes. It's likely, however, that John's relationship with her is such that he actually approves of those purposes, assuming he deduced them after she left or that they agreed on them when she left.
I agree that we can't tell if the writers thought Cameron's nature through. From the point of view of making the character more interesting, making her a fully independent being - independent of Skynet and John and with her own motivations - is the way to go. I would hope they can see that.
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Post by vicheron on Dec 22, 2008 20:26:09 GMT -5
I really hope they don't make Cameron a Mary Sue. Out of all the characters, she's most likely to become a Mary Sue. In fact, that seems to be what a lot of fans want her to become.
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