terrasj
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Rossbond Connor Crew
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Post by terrasj on Oct 25, 2008 0:22:07 GMT -5
Except for the fact that you have to realize the changes to the timeline happen every time another person or Terminator gets sent back in time. Originally, in the very first unaltered timeline, someone other than Kyle Reese made Sarah pregnant. And it wasn't a wrecked Terminator's chip that was used to design the A.I for what becomes Skynet. Judgement Day happens, and all of a sudden a leader rises from the ashes, and from that point onwards, the timeline begins to get altered. Skynet sends back a T800 to kill Sarah. John sends back his best friend and soldier - Kyle Reese. Kyle ends up making Sarah pregnant, replacing the original father though John ends up being the same and Judgement Day still happens because now there is a wrecked Terminator chip in which is used to build the basis of Skynet. History continues repeats itself in T2. Cyberdyne gets blown up. But Judgement Day still happens because one of the interns - Andy Goode got to work on the project for a short period, and it inspired him to make a learning computer of his own ala the Turk. Which gets destroyed and rebuilt, stolen and now is in Catherine Weaver's hands. Only difference now is that the Judgement Day is set back to a later date. And whatever events or details change, its fate that events will conspire so that Judgement Day still happens, nomatter what. Thats only because we don't have someone like Andy Goode well on his way to writing the groundwork for a learning A.I. Nomatter the CPU, all the cpu does is process binary data strings of 1's and 0's . 1=on , 0=off. All software exists in 2 formats - both the binary machine code, and the programming language used to write it. An A.I's software programming is so complex that its likely got several hundred 'threads' running and being processed at every moment. Our latest conventional quad cores are still limited. But, in video gaming consoles starting with the PS2 (and Andy mentions how he linked up several of them) - the CPU's in those consoles are divided into 32 "Cell" cpu's. Today's latest GeForce 280 is based on the same technology - instead of one big CPU with a limited number of data processing lanes, its divided into 240 miniature cell cpu's aka: Stream processors.( GeForce 280 GTX) Thats 240 individual independent processors running that same number of binary data strings of a software program. So lets say a Terminator's got 500 - 1500 cell processors (or more) in its cpu chip. That chip also contains its core operating system - the A.I. as well as its memory bank storage. All on the size of a printed circuit board (PCB) no larger than our 2gb usb flash drives. The rest of the skull has more secondary processors, simpler ones to manage the body's functions and living skin tissue, all sensory inputs, etc... While the Terminator's cpu is easily capable of learning, self writing new A.I instruction codes, SKYNet physically sets the chip in the slot so that the chip is only in 'read only mode' that one quarter turn, thus the cpu is unable to write new A.I software routines. But soon as you twist that chip a quarter turn, the chip is allowed to go into learning mode, begin to write new A.I code, even re-writing parts of itself. Thats where a re-programmed Terminator like Cameron starts to become a self aware individual. As she learns and is exposed to situations on a daily basis, she's learning, adapting, and becoming a unique individual. She asks because she dosn't know, nor does her A.I have the written routines to handle new concepts and information. But as Cameron begins to understand and grasp those concepts, her A.I code becomes edited, new code writen or more code adapted. Until something like the value of life means to her that each person is a unique identity, irreplaceable once dead, and so forth. The best I can think of explaining it would be like - the A.I is compromised of a list of values and variables, catalogued like a library. A value for every action or response. Variables on the other hand can hand multiple resulting values, becoming a branch of values. Now, as soon as the CPU is switched to write mode, it begins to start writing and adding new values. Rewriting some values into variables with branching multiple values, thus creating an intricate and infinite spanning branched library of code. If no value exists, it writes one for it, and begins defining it. If one were to use paper and ink to example it, it would be like an initial massive flowchart that eventually begins to span the size of a football field and keep growing in complexity. Behavior and responses would still be awkward, as John refers to Cameron's "wierdness". But over time, the CPU / A.I would be able to further define, refine its continuously evolving software. Cameron becoming less awkward and more natural response would be from the A.I slowly optimizing itself. Making references and interconnects within that massive flowchart. We now see Cameron making more choices, ones that affect her well being. She's progressed to that next stage of self awareness. She's learning the value of life, and beginning understand it and applying it to herself. When she rebooted, she was able to understand she would kill John if she didn't overide her former / original Terminator programming objective from Skynet. She realizes she almost did, thus reactivating with the thermite powder sprinkled around her in the car. Thanks to John, she's been given a second chance at life. Sarah orders Cameron to take out Greenway at the Nuclear power plant. Cameron hesitates, weighs different factors against one another. Probably taking into account she's risking her life to fight Greenway. She's smaller, not as physically strong, she always gets tossed around by the other T888's and this time she won't have any extra help should she need it. But her thought process arrives to the conclusion that she still has to protect John, and thus letting the plant meltdown would kill John, so she goes and stops Greenway and close the pipe's pressure valve. The powerplant will end up still being functional and likely in Skynet's control in the future, but at least John's still safe. Thats a direct contrast to season 1, where Cameron just went and fought any Terminator, without any hesitation or reservation in regards to her own survivability because *it* posed a threat to John's life. So indeed, Cameron is learning, growing, becoming more human in her own way. As others said, she's holding and looking at Victoria's chip, readying more of that suicide pamphlet, and she's already listened in on one of John's therapy sessions - finding out he is emotionally troubled, and pair that with the gun cleaning accident earlier. She already learnt why humans write notes to cope with the losses of others. Now she's learning about Victoria's choice to self-terminate. Does this mean Cameron's trying to understand why people commit suicide? To further learn the warning signs that John might exhibit so she can protect John from himself? Or is it also because she herself doesn't know if or when she may turn bad again and that she herself may need to commit suicide before allowing herself to harm John? Or is she becoming to accept the fact that there may come a time that she may have to sacrifice herself to save John's life?
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Post by chrisimo on Oct 25, 2008 5:21:21 GMT -5
No they aren't. Our computers cannot learn, period. They do only what you've programmed them to do, they cannot improvise, they do not use logic and reasoning to make decisions, everything they may choose to do is something a human put there. Yes, they can all do that what you said, just on a very basic level compared to Terminators. My original point was about AI in Terminator universe. It is capable of free will, doesn't mean every terminator is free to choose. But the framework has always been there in the story. Well, since no Terminator is free to choose you may as well say that they are not capable of free will. Cameron is special, so she doesn't count.
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Post by chrisimo on Oct 25, 2008 5:32:18 GMT -5
Except for the fact that you have to realize the changes to the timeline happen every time another person or Terminator gets sent back in time. I think we can pretty much discount all time related issues. If we could think in a logical way about that Kyle Reese would never have been sent back because the instant the first Terminator vanished into the past the future would have been altered and there would have been no John Connor to send Kyle back. While the Terminator's cpu is easily capable of learning, self writing new A.I instruction codes, SKYNet physically sets the chip in the slot so that the chip is only in 'read only mode' that one quarter turn, thus the cpu is unable to write new A.I software routines. But soon as you twist that chip a quarter turn, the chip is allowed to go into learning mode, begin to write new A.I code, even re-writing parts of itself. Thats where a re-programmed Terminator like Cameron starts to become a self aware individual. As she learns and is exposed to situations on a daily basis, she's learning, adapting, and becoming a unique individual. She asks because she dosn't know, nor does her A.I have the written routines to handle new concepts and information. But as Cameron begins to understand and grasp those concepts, her A.I code becomes edited, new code writen or more code adapted. Until something like the value of life means to her that each person is a unique identity, irreplaceable once dead, and so forth. The best I can think of explaining it would be like - the A.I is compromised of a list of values and variables, catalogued like a library. A value for every action or response. Variables on the other hand can hand multiple resulting values, becoming a branch of values. Now, as soon as the CPU is switched to write mode, it begins to start writing and adding new values. Rewriting some values into variables with branching multiple values, thus creating an intricate and infinite spanning branched library of code. If no value exists, it writes one for it, and begins defining it. If one were to use paper and ink to example it, it would be like an initial massive flowchart that eventually begins to span the size of a football field and keep growing in complexity. Behavior and responses would still be awkward, as John refers to Cameron's "wierdness". But over time, the CPU / A.I would be able to further define, refine its continuously evolving software. Cameron becoming less awkward and more natural response would be from the A.I slowly optimizing itself. Making references and interconnects within that massive flowchart. We now see Cameron making more choices, ones that affect her well being. She's progressed to that next stage of self awareness. She's learning the value of life, and beginning understand it and applying it to herself. When she rebooted, she was able to understand she would kill John if she didn't overide her former / original Terminator programming objective from Skynet. She realizes she almost did, thus reactivating with the thermite powder sprinkled around her in the car. Thanks to John, she's been given a second chance at life. Sarah orders Cameron to take out Greenway at the Nuclear power plant. Cameron hesitates, weighs different factors against one another. Probably taking into account she's risking her life to fight Greenway. She's smaller, not as physically strong, she always gets tossed around by the other T888's and this time she won't have any extra help should she need it. But her thought process arrives to the conclusion that she still has to protect John, and thus letting the plant meltdown would kill John, so she goes and stops Greenway and close the pipe's pressure valve. The powerplant will end up still being functional and likely in Skynet's control in the future, but at least John's still safe. Thats a direct contrast to season 1, where Cameron just went and fought any Terminator, without any hesitation or reservation in regards to her own survivability because *it* posed a threat to John's life. So indeed, Cameron is learning, growing, becoming more human in her own way. As others said, she's holding and looking at Victoria's chip, readying more of that suicide pamphlet, and she's already listened in on one of John's therapy sessions - finding out he is emotionally troubled, and pair that with the gun cleaning accident earlier. She already learnt why humans write notes to cope with the losses of others. Now she's learning about Victoria's choice to self-terminate. Does this mean Cameron's trying to understand why people commit suicide? To further learn the warning signs that John might exhibit so she can protect John from himself? Or is it also because she herself doesn't know if or when she may turn bad again and that she herself may need to commit suicide before allowing herself to harm John? Or is she becoming to accept the fact that there may come a time that she may have to sacrifice herself to save John's life? The question is: Why does she protect John at all? Because she wants to or because she was programmed to do it? In any case, Cameron is special and even if Cameron is sentient and capable of free will, that doesn't mean that the other Terminators are capable of free will, too. Free learning ability does not equal free will or being sentient. 'Uncle Bob' could learn everything but he did not have a free will. He was still bound to his programming.
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terrasj
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Post by terrasj on Oct 25, 2008 7:46:39 GMT -5
Except for the fact that you have to realize the changes to the timeline happen every time another person or Terminator gets sent back in time. I think we can pretty much discount all time related issues. If we could think in a logical way about that Kyle Reese would never have been sent back because the instant the first Terminator vanished into the past the future would have been altered and there would have been no John Connor to send Kyle back. I'm fine with that. Its a paradox. Yes I do think Cameron is of free will at this point. Since she got damaged and reverted back to Terminator mode, got deactivated, then reactivated - she was able to override her older programing. If she can override one objective, why can't she override others? Its possibly sheer determination to do such an override, or its a new ability she's gained since getting damaged from that piece of shrapnel that got wedged into her skull plating. My best guess is it penetrated her skull plates ever so slightly, causing some type of short between circuits, and possibly the 'inhibitor' circuitry that would normally prevent hard-wired objectives from being altered got fried... And this would allow her to have free will. If so, why does she still choose to stay with and protect John? Perhaps she still knows alot more than she reveals about the future. She's only doting out little bits at a time as needed. John's still vital to the future and Skynet's still sending Terminators after him. Perhaps he made an impression on her in the future, and the young John continues to make an impression on her. He's helping her learn human things. John's also saved her life, risking himself to re-activate her when there was an equal chance she'd try to resume killing him. So at the very least John still is attached to her, and trusting her. Sometimes he may seem to regard her like a weird sister, but his caring for her shows when it counts. Sarah always threatened Cameron, Derek barely stands Cameron, but John? he still trusts her. They've got a bit of a repertoire / friendship going on also. She covered for him in the first season, when Sarah came in asking what Sarah and John were discussing, Cameron left but gave him a wink. The favor's returned when Cameron has her 'memory / identity personality conflict' and John goes looking for her, lying to his mom that everything's alright. I don't think Sarah or Derek even knows about that "incident", and I think that day was only between John and Cameron. So yeah, theres definitely that level of trust John has for her. I might be going out on a limb here, but its possibly Cameron realizes that. :edit / addendum: Cameron now thinks it over, hesitates before putting herself at risk - when ordered to by Sarah in the Greenway situation. Now, that could've been a costly mistake on Cameron's free willed judgement - not acting fast enough to restore the open pressure valve and deal with Greenway - the plant could've had an accident, harming or killing John. (at the very least soaking him with radiation.) She also chooses not to engage the Bidell Terminator. She just watches John and Derek as they had it under control. Doubt that even they knew they were being watched by Cam. Thats a direct contrast to her act first think later reaction in season 1. If there was even the slightest threat or risk to John in season1, Cameron was there taking action. Further situations like that could prove interesting... Perhaps Cameron's also realizing John has to learn how to fend for himself as she may not always be there to protect him. And that'll do John more good in the long run than always fighting his battles for him. And thats more than Sarah could do for John's benefit. When Sarah can't be with John, she's heavily relying on Cameron to protect John in her place. So Cameron would be choosing not to listen to Sarah's order. IMHO, Cameron's the most interesting Terminator to date because of all this development within her. Overiding her given objectives for good or bad, considering her own safety and the larger picture, and making personal choices that could yet still have consequences.
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Post by chrisimo on Oct 25, 2008 13:57:34 GMT -5
Yes I do think Cameron is of free will at this point. Since she got damaged and reverted back to Terminator mode, got deactivated, then reactivated - she was able to override her older programing. If she can override one objective, why can't she override others? Its possibly sheer determination to do such an override, or its a new ability she's gained since getting damaged from that piece of shrapnel that got wedged into her skull plating. My best guess is it penetrated her skull plates ever so slightly, causing some type of short between circuits, and possibly the 'inhibitor' circuitry that would normally prevent hard-wired objectives from being altered got fried... I do think, too, that she has a free will. She is also able to experience real human emotions it seems. She is special. But I believe that she could do all of this even before her chip was damaged. I think she may have chosen not to kill John Connor in the future just like she overrode her programming after her chip was damaged. She also chooses not to engage the Bidell Terminator. She just watches John and Derek as they had it under control. Doubt that even they knew they were being watched by Cam. Thats a direct contrast to her act first think later reaction in season 1. If there was even the slightest threat or risk to John in season1, Cameron was there taking action. It's possible that she just came too late. IMHO, Cameron's the most interesting Terminator to date because of all this development within her. Overiding her given objectives for good or bad, considering her own safety and the larger picture, and making personal choices that could yet still have consequences. I agree. She is certainly the most human one and therefore the least predictable one.
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Post by vicheron on Oct 25, 2008 22:09:05 GMT -5
Yes I do think Cameron is of free will at this point. Since she got damaged and reverted back to Terminator mode, got deactivated, then reactivated - she was able to override her older programing. If she can override one objective, why can't she override others? Its possibly sheer determination to do such an override, or its a new ability she's gained since getting damaged from that piece of shrapnel that got wedged into her skull plating. My best guess is it penetrated her skull plates ever so slightly, causing some type of short between circuits, and possibly the 'inhibitor' circuitry that would normally prevent hard-wired objectives from being altered got fried... And this would allow her to have free will. If so, why does she still choose to stay with and protect John? Perhaps she still knows alot more than she reveals about the future. She's only doting out little bits at a time as needed. John's still vital to the future and Skynet's still sending Terminators after him. Perhaps he made an impression on her in the future, and the young John continues to make an impression on her. He's helping her learn human things. John's also saved her life, risking himself to re-activate her when there was an equal chance she'd try to resume killing him. So at the very least John still is attached to her, and trusting her. Sometimes he may seem to regard her like a weird sister, but his caring for her shows when it counts. Sarah always threatened Cameron, Derek barely stands Cameron, but John? he still trusts her. They've got a bit of a repertoire / friendship going on also. She covered for him in the first season, when Sarah came in asking what Sarah and John were discussing, Cameron left but gave him a wink. The favor's returned when Cameron has her 'memory / identity personality conflict' and John goes looking for her, lying to his mom that everything's alright. I don't think Sarah or Derek even knows about that "incident", and I think that day was only between John and Cameron. So yeah, theres definitely that level of trust John has for her. I might be going out on a limb here, but its possibly Cameron realizes that. :edit / addendum: Cameron now thinks it over, hesitates before putting herself at risk - when ordered to by Sarah in the Greenway situation. Now, that could've been a costly mistake on Cameron's free willed judgement - not acting fast enough to restore the open pressure valve and deal with Greenway - the plant could've had an accident, harming or killing John. (at the very least soaking him with radiation.) She also chooses not to engage the Bidell Terminator. She just watches John and Derek as they had it under control. Doubt that even they knew they were being watched by Cam. Thats a direct contrast to her act first think later reaction in season 1. If there was even the slightest threat or risk to John in season1, Cameron was there taking action. Further situations like that could prove interesting... Perhaps Cameron's also realizing John has to learn how to fend for himself as she may not always be there to protect him. And that'll do John more good in the long run than always fighting his battles for him. And thats more than Sarah could do for John's benefit. When Sarah can't be with John, she's heavily relying on Cameron to protect John in her place. So Cameron would be choosing not to listen to Sarah's order. IMHO, Cameron's the most interesting Terminator to date because of all this development within her. Overiding her given objectives for good or bad, considering her own safety and the larger picture, and making personal choices that could yet still have consequences. Cameron never had to follow John or Sarah's orders. Also, the Terminator that was hunting Biddell overrode the termination order in order to go after John Connor. I do think, too, that she has a free will. She is also able to experience real human emotions it seems. She is special. But I believe that she could do all of this even before her chip was damaged. I think she may have chosen not to kill John Connor in the future just like she overrode her programming after her chip was damaged. It's way too much of a stretch to say that Cameron, or any Terminator, can feel emotions. They lack the physiology for emotions. Again I have to stress that the mind is dependent on the body. Humans with damage to certain parts of their brain, the amygdala especially, can lose the ability to feel emotions. In order for Terminators to actually feel emotion, they would have to have something equivalent to structures in the human brain that allows us to feel emotions.
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terrasj
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Post by terrasj on Oct 25, 2008 23:53:45 GMT -5
I do think, too, that she has a free will. She is also able to experience real human emotions it seems. She is special. But I believe that she could do all of this even before her chip was damaged. I think she may have chosen not to kill John Connor in the future just like she overrode her programming after her chip was damaged. Looks like we're pretty much on the same page I still think the damage from the explosion did cause her some internal system malfunction, as we see within her reboot sequence HUD, causing her revert to Termination mode. I don't think that was something that could've been helped. I'm sure that was the start of her personality disorder. Though all it took was a deactivate and re-activate (barring anything else John did to her chip during the ride. Cameron suffered one more flip (Allison), but was able to snap out of it. But here's the clincher - Cameron was eventually able to snap out of it when she caught Jody lying to her, and almost strangled her when John arrived. What if the sudden impact between 2 vehicles and imminent threat of deactivation was enough to snap Cameron back the first time? The pleas and cry of tears? Could those have been genuine? You could be right about Cameron's override objectives ability. Now here's what i'm thinking - in order for Cameron to be special, possibly she's a prototype model for a new model? What I'm getting at is - perhaps she's a Series T888, but a newer model of T888, say the 705. The T888's like Cromartie are exibiting higher function levels in thinking - they're smarter, more cunning and clever, more adaptable to the ever changing situation. Maybe Cromartie's a Series T888, model 301. Cameron could be a Series T888 Model 705. Or I could be entirely wrong - Cameron could be a T900 series, model 705... Skynet might've just screwed up with Cameron's prototype model - ok, so she's got tear ducts to cry with, Skynet had to make a few gambles on what else to enable her to do, to make her a better infiltrator. Perhaps loosen the behavioural inhibitors that are put on all its Terminators. Thats the one drawback of having / making CPU's and A.I software highly capable. Here's a stretch - perhaps Victoria's the same series as Cameron, a slightly higher / newer model number since after Cameron's defection, Skynet had to refine the design a bit, tightening up its behavioural inhibitors, installing chip-burnout safety measures, cutting back to a cheaper metal alloy, etc... They moved exactly the same way to reach for the door handle, the exact same time, which tipped eachother off as a Terminator unit. That might be a clue there. You could be right with the Bidell scene - she arrived to late, they already had established a plan of action to deal with the Terminator. So she likely chose to stay out or sight, lest she come out at the wrong time, distracting them. She also got to see that John and Derek were capable fending for themselves. Now ain't that the truth? Cameron never had to follow John or Sarah's orders. Also, the Terminator that was hunting Biddell overrode the termination order in order to go after John Connor. I thought it was said that almost all Terminators universally have a Terminate John Connor objective. While they're sent out on specific mission objectives (to the past), and they may not recognize John Connor immediately since they're not looking for him. But, should John make his pressence known, and give reason to be scanned by a Terminator, then they will recognize John and attempt to dispose of him. Actually, thats exactly what happens with the Bidell Terminator. He's there seeking out all matching Bidells of the same name. And right up to the point of chasing the real Martin through the academy's woods, he's only after Martin. But, when Martin looses his footing, slips down the bank, John makes his presence noticed to save Martin, causing the Terminator to scan John, which comes up with a visual and voice print identification match. We see that happening in the Terminator's HUD, and the objective below John Connors name: Terminate. Now the Terminator has 2 objectives, and likely John being the higher one. On the flipside, if Skynet didn't hardwire objectives into Terminators, Terminators would be able to overide those objectives easily at will, at their convenience. That would be dangerous to Skynet's own existence. When Cameron 'flips' back to default Terminator mode, that is her primary mode, and the Terminate John objective shows up upon scanning him because its hardwired into her core. Like any other Terminator. The resistance does its best to overwrite that, and put a new layer of code like a firewall to block / mask the hardwired code, which works for the most of time. But something happens that it fails and the Terminators revert back 'go bad'. It would stand to reason why Skynet's made the chip-burnout failsafes in Victoria. If you have no chip to reprogram, the body is useless.
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Post by chrisimo on Oct 26, 2008 4:48:51 GMT -5
It's way too much of a stretch to say that Cameron, or any Terminator, can feel emotions. They lack the physiology for emotions. Again I have to stress that the mind is dependent on the body. Humans with damage to certain parts of their brain, the amygdala especially, can lose the ability to feel emotions. In order for Terminators to actually feel emotion, they would have to have something equivalent to structures in the human brain that allows us to feel emotions. Think about this: Skynet fights a long war against supposed inferior beings. Beings of flesh and bone that can be easily killed, beings that have emotions which can distract them. But these inferior beings not only put up a great fight but are also on the verge of winning. So I think it may seem reasonable that Skynet designed Terminators of Cameron's Model to feel emotions, to experience being a human, so that Skynet has a better ability to understand humans and therefore understand our less obvious weaknesses. Or it was just designed too complex. Remember that originally, Skynet wasn't meant to have a consciousness. So maybe Cameron's emotions have devloped just like Skynet's consciousness. Remember that she can eat, too (what happens with that food?) and cry. I got the impression that Cameron's emotions in 'Allison from Palmdale' were genuine. She cried after her (Allisons) mother said that she doesn't have a child. And she had fun with Jody playing table soccer (or whatever is was). She was afraid of the guy who attacked Jody and even gave him her money. I don't think that was programmed into her because at that time she had lost her memories. Now here's what i'm thinking - in order for Cameron to be special, possibly she's a prototype model for a new model? Yes, that's what I'm thinking, too. And everyone says that she's special. Skynet might've just screwed up with Cameron's prototype model - ok, so she's got tear ducts to cry with, Skynet had to make a few gambles on what else to enable her to do, to make her a better infiltrator. Perhaps loosen the behavioural inhibitors that are put on all its Terminators. Thats the one drawback of having / making CPU's and A.I software highly capable. Yeah, just the same problems humans had with Skynet Here's a stretch - perhaps Victoria's the same series as Cameron, a slightly higher / newer model number since after Cameron's defection, Skynet had to refine the design a bit, tightening up its behavioural inhibitors, installing chip-burnout safety measures, cutting back to a cheaper metal alloy, etc... They moved exactly the same way to reach for the door handle, the exact same time, which tipped eachother off as a Terminator unit. That might be a clue there. To me it looked like Victoria was of a less advanced model. I suppose that they moved alike because Terminators move like that. She totally behaved like a machine Cameron easily destroyed her. I think maybe Catherine could also be one of those 'new' Terminators. Some of her behaviour sure seems strange (why does she keep the child and even tries to comfort her?). Maybe she and Cameron are part of the rogue Terminator's (we want peace)...But of course, that would probably go too far
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terrasj
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Post by terrasj on Oct 26, 2008 8:32:35 GMT -5
What Cameron does with the food? It would go into a holding bin until she can excrete it later. Probably broken down a bit by mild acids or enzymes. It would be a new feature of the infiltrator's role to convincingly consume food. It may be a bit of a stretch, but possibly she can breakdown the food to extract any useful nutrients to replenish her living tissue. The table game she plays with Jody at the woman's shelter is Foozball. Funny name, and no, i've never played it myself. And Victoria still remains a mystery. Newer model, older model, more or less advanced model than Cameron... ? All we know is Cameron's a bit bigger than Victoria, overpowers Victoria, and is able to bend her into a pretzel - indicating a weaker alloy of metal. But it still was nice see'ing Cameron have that personal victory. Especially when the full size T888's always overpower Cameron's smaller frame. I'd love to know whats the difference between a T1000 and a T1001, but thats a topic for a different thread
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Post by chrisimo on Oct 26, 2008 8:47:32 GMT -5
The table game she plays with Jody at the woman's shelter is Foozball. Funny name, and no, i've never played it myself. I heard correctly, then. I wondered if I misheard that because here in Germany the most popular sport is soccer, but we call it 'Fußball' which means football but is pronounced 'foozball'. And there is a table version of it, called 'Tischfußball', meaning table football. But I thought in the US that is all called soccer, not football or even foozball.
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terrasj
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Post by terrasj on Oct 26, 2008 10:49:54 GMT -5
Ahh, thats quite interesting. I had wondered why it was named that. And easy to get the terms confused from similarity of names. I'm not a sports fan, so ... But yeah, here in the North Americas, Football's the sport with the brown oblong ball - thrown / passed among players, caught & carried down the field and thrown into the air towards a pair of goal posts (or as far until the runner gets tackled down). Soccer is the round white & black patterened ball, kicked along the ground and into a net. And the table version of soccer being Foozball.
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tom
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Post by tom on Oct 26, 2008 11:21:49 GMT -5
It's quite confusing cause all around Europe soccer is called football, and football is called American football.
Talking about foozball, here's a slight paradox; Even not aware of her true abilities Cameron would have had the same speed and preciseness as before - meaning- she should have pwned Jody in foozball every time. But we saw them playing, and not Cam winning a 258-0 game.
I totally agree with the breaking down food idea, since in T3 the terminatrix had nanobots she could discharge and -judging by the glowing blue eyes- Cameron is from the same series, so she could have nanobots inside of her consuming food and rebuilding the living tissue. Despite the fights and the damages she had she looks like new every other episode. Deep injuries on leaves scars unless there's something rebuilding the tissue exactly as it was.
That means Cameron is in fact capable of having feelings. She couldn't have faked them when she didn't even know she was a robot. She thought she was a human and voilá, she acted, she felt like a human. Does that mean only memories define the nature of the Cameron kind of terminators?
Looking at the human brain I can easily imagine a machine having feelings, considering that the brain works similar to a machine- ones and zeros are running through the nerves- no different than in your computer right now. The only difference is the complexity. So if we create a chip as complex as a brain ( and let's assume Skynet did) this does mean we can create a Cameron with feelings, no?! Her programming cuts the emotions and I think that's why she becomes the same after regaining her memories and her program.
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Post by chrisimo on Oct 26, 2008 12:03:01 GMT -5
Looking at the human brain I can easily imagine a machine having feelings, considering that the brain works similar to a machine- ones and zeros are running through the nerves- no different than in your computer right now. The only difference is the complexity. So if we create a chip as complex as a brain ( and let's assume Skynet did) this does mean we can create a Cameron with feelings, no?! Her programming cuts the emotions and I think that's why she becomes the same after regaining her memories and her program. I believe that our emotions are created through the use of neurotransmitters like serotonin and dopamin for good feelings for example. So if we would disable our neurotransmitters we would still be as intelligent but could not feel emotions anymore. I'm not sure if I am right here, though. If I am right however then the Terminator chips would have to be designed in a way to simulate the reactions of neurons that receive neurotransmitters. I think that standard Terminator models don't have that feature but Cameron does (and maybe others of her model if she isn't a prototype).
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tom
Private
I'll be back....as soon as I figure out how I can leave.
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Post by tom on Oct 26, 2008 12:34:52 GMT -5
You're right. Dopamin is a neurotransmitter wich modulates signals between synapses. Like a valve on a pipe- the strength of our feelings depends on the amount of dopamin released in the brain. And in a program it's so easy to shut down or control such a thing. So, yes if we could shut it down, we would have no feelings. No love no hate no fear. Just pure logic. Then what would distinguish a human from a terminator? Oh yeah, the lack of strength!
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terrasj
Sergeant
Rossbond Connor Crew
Posts: 445
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Post by terrasj on Oct 26, 2008 13:57:24 GMT -5
It's quite confusing cause all around Europe soccer is called football, and football is called American football. Talking about foozball, here's a slight paradox; Even not aware of her true abilities Cameron would have had the same speed and preciseness as before - meaning- she should have pwned Jody in foozball every time. But we saw them playing, and not Cam winning a 258-0 game. Hmm... While Cameron was experiencing her multiple personality disorder as Allison, she totally lacks her Terminator HUD. I wonder if she'd have freaked out if she did see it. That might also explain her losing the matches of Foozball to Jody. If she doesn't see her 'HUD' as Cameron normally does (or can call it up) , then she can't track and calculate the mathematics (angle, velocity, trajectories) for the ball thats being kicked around the board. Basically losing any advantage that her Terminator body gives her. I shudder to think if Allison had some backbone rather than just get scared and hand her money over, how seriously could she have put that guy into a world of hurt had she grabbed him and shoved him or punched him... (would likely have freaked Jody out for a bit there til Jody tries to use it to her advantage). As Allison began slowly reverting back to Cameron, she just about strangles Jody single handedly in the end there... I'm not sure about being the same series as a T-X though. The T-X was basically a 1-up over the T1000 - polymimnetic metal alloy (liquid metal) and hidden weaponry inside. Cameron has flesh, and she can bleed when cut, where as the T-X (and T1000) can't bleed. Their only common feature is the blue eyes. Maybe its skynet's gender thing? Or a higher class of infiltrator? I wonder if some of that will integrate into Cameron's personality. It also makes me wonder if Cameron didn't have access to some of Allison's memories and feelings when she was pinned between the 2 trucks before John pulled her chip. Sofar, wherever I read, opinions seem to be split on Cameron exhibiting true emotions, while the other side is its her Terminator / Infiltrator programming still at work. Back during that episode we only saw Cameron revert to Terminator mode, but then several episodes later we see another reversion - into Allison... And now we look back in retrospect.... The easiest way I figured was that virtual flow-chart idea mentioned many posts back. I based that of the old BASIC programming language application for Dos. Each line number had a statement - be it an input statement or value, or a variable - if X, then goto line # / if Y then goto line # ... Inevitably, the longer the program code got, the code began to cross reference back and forth to line numbers.. The idea with the virtual flow-chart would be similar. Starting with one basic tree one each per emotion type, and each would begin dividing and sub dividing into more branches as new values and variables were written, edited, expanded. Eventually there'd be links and cross-links all over the place like a tangled spiderweb the larger the flow-chart grew. If each cell processor ran the same process, the emotions would become / appear more naturally human as there would nolonger be just black and white (off and on) but a full range of grey inbetween. If you had one tree for each base emotion (happiness, sadness, love, fear, anger) and connected them in a circular or pointed star arrangement, you'd have a dot indicator that'd float in the center for neutral light grey and it'd drift towards any one of those several base emotion points as moods slowly raised or shifted. Or basically it would be based on the percentage of same or similar resulting values the cell processors would arrive at. So from a virtual flow-chart we'd illustrate a visual diagram. Or almost like a HSL Color Wheel in a paint program... Like I said... its just an idea i've had kicking around for some time now (relating to a side project i've been working on and off for a few years on the topic of androids and brain matrices and such), something that'd kinda simulate dopamine and serotonin levels in a digital / mathematical values way... Maybe if I illustrated a diagram or something, it'd make more sense...?
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