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Post by vicheron on Nov 22, 2008 18:43:40 GMT -5
"I know now why you cry. But it is something I can never do."
Uncle Bob clearly said that he couldn't actually feel emotions, just that he could understand it.
"Because if a machine can learn the value of human life... maybe we can too."
Uncle Bob didn't "gain humanity," he learned the value of human life.
There is no fantasy element in the Terminator films. Uncle Bob didn't magically turn into a real person like Pinocchio.
You're making the assumption that humans are somehow better than self aware machines. You're forgetting that emotions are based on an instinctual reward/punishment system. You're also assuming that there's some kind of universal value found in all humans. Uncle Bob didn't "gain humanity," he learned the values shared by Sarah and John, there are 6 billion people in the world, not all of them share the same values. Uncle Bob learned that it's wrong to kill people because that's what John taught him, there are plenty of people out there who think that the ends justify the means and that it is necessary to sacrifice the few to save the many.
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Post by terminatornerd on Nov 23, 2008 1:33:34 GMT -5
"I know now why you cry. But it is something I can never do." Uncle Bob clearly said that he couldn't actually feel emotions, just that he could understand it. "Because if a machine can learn the value of human life... maybe we can too." Uncle Bob didn't "gain humanity," he learned the value of human life. There is no fantasy element in the Terminator films. Uncle Bob didn't magically turn into a real person like Pinocchio. You're making the assumption that humans are somehow better than self aware machines. You're forgetting that emotions are based on an instinctual reward/punishment system. You're also assuming that there's some kind of universal value found in all humans. Uncle Bob didn't "gain humanity," he learned the values shared by Sarah and John, there are 6 billion people in the world, not all of them share the same values. Uncle Bob learned that it's wrong to kill people because that's what John taught him, there are plenty of people out there who think that the ends justify the means and that it is necessary to sacrifice the few to save the many. He didn't become a human and neither did the Tin Man in the Wizard of Oz, but as James Cameron said he found his heart like the Tin Man. It was always there. It wasn't given to him. He had to discover he had it ON HIS OWN. It's self discovery, not what John said or ordered. He just spurred him to question. What is a heart? It's been deemed a vessel, a manifestation of emotions. Read your Joseph Campbell. It's symbolic. Arnold found enlightenment. It is the place humans need to go as well so they stop wars, stop hating, and turn to love and peace. Arnold is now EQUAL to a human because he found what many humans have yet to find and that makes them lesser than their potential. Arnold reached it... that's why he "got it." Arnold stated what he did to John because he could not cry. He was not built for it, was not advanced enough to show emotions the same way as John. He was telling him that if he could cry at that moment, he would have. That's why he touched John's tears and gave him a hug instead. Watch some of the interviews with James Cameron and some of the screen treatments that were on the Pioneer T2 collector's edition laserdisc. It's rather eye opening. |
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Post by vicheron on Nov 23, 2008 2:59:38 GMT -5
"I know now why you cry. But it is something I can never do." Uncle Bob clearly said that he couldn't actually feel emotions, just that he could understand it. "Because if a machine can learn the value of human life... maybe we can too." Uncle Bob didn't "gain humanity," he learned the value of human life. There is no fantasy element in the Terminator films. Uncle Bob didn't magically turn into a real person like Pinocchio. You're making the assumption that humans are somehow better than self aware machines. You're forgetting that emotions are based on an instinctual reward/punishment system. You're also assuming that there's some kind of universal value found in all humans. Uncle Bob didn't "gain humanity," he learned the values shared by Sarah and John, there are 6 billion people in the world, not all of them share the same values. Uncle Bob learned that it's wrong to kill people because that's what John taught him, there are plenty of people out there who think that the ends justify the means and that it is necessary to sacrifice the few to save the many. He didn't become a human and neither did the Tin Man in the Wizard of Oz, but as James Cameron said he found his heart like the Tin Man. It was always there. It wasn't given to him. He had to discover he had it ON HIS OWN. It's self discovery, not what John said or ordered. He just spirred him to question. What is a heart? It's been deemed a vessel, a manifestation of emotions. Read your Joseph Campbell. It's symbolic. Of course it's symbolic but the ability to feel emotions is not symbolic and the ability to feel emotions is not necessarily a defining quality of humans. Says who? Why was Uncle Bob not equal to humans before? As for your talk of potentials, you're basing it on a very ethnocentric view point. People have the potential for a lot of things, what they should strive to achieve is not universal among all humans, it is determined by individual cultures and societies. The qualities you value may not be the same as the qualities valued by Tibetan monks or Yanomammo shamans. He's saying that he understands why John feels that way but he cannot feel the same way. James Cameron has not definitively stated the exact meaning of what he tried to convey through the movies. In fact, there are concepts that cannot be definitively resolved. Just look at the "Blade Runner" debate over whether Rick Deckard is a replicant. Harrison Ford said that before they shot the film, they decided that Deckard was not a replicant but now Ridley Scott has pretty much stated that Deckard is replicant. Even though the discussion has "settled," there's still plenty of debate over it. |
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Post by terminatornerd on Nov 23, 2008 22:05:43 GMT -5
He didn't become a human and neither did the Tin Man in the Wizard of Oz, but as James Cameron said he found his heart like the Tin Man. It was always there. It wasn't given to him. He had to discover he had it ON HIS OWN. It's self discovery, not what John said or ordered. He just spirred him to question. What is a heart? It's been deemed a vessel, a manifestation of emotions. Read your Joseph Campbell. It's symbolic. Of course it's symbolic but the ability to feel emotions is not symbolic and the ability to feel emotions is not necessarily a defining quality of humans. Says who? Why was Uncle Bob not equal to humans before? As for your talk of potentials, you're basing it on a very ethnocentric view point. People have the potential for a lot of things, what they should strive to achieve is not universal among all humans, it is determined by individual cultures and societies. The qualities you value may not be the same as the qualities valued by Tibetan monks or Yanomammo shamans. He's saying that he understands why John feels that way but he cannot feel the same way. James Cameron has not definitively stated the exact meaning of what he tried to convey through the movies. In fact, there are concepts that cannot be definitively resolved. Just look at the "Blade Runner" debate over whether Rick Deckard is a replicant. Harrison Ford said that before they shot the film, they decided that Deckard was not a replicant but now Ridley Scott has pretty much stated that Deckard is replicant. Even though the discussion has "settled," there's still plenty of debate over it. I'll take what James Cameron said DURING and right after the filming of T2 rather than now. Just like what Ridley Scott or Francis Ford Coppola said during the making of their classic films rather what they think now. The directors and writers that they were at the time were the ones that knew the material intimately and the best. Those were the people who shot and edited the films. Hindsight doesn't always work in this business because they may have had MORE talent then than they do now. I'd say that about Spielberg too. |
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Post by vicheron on Nov 23, 2008 22:21:20 GMT -5
The writers and directors of the movies are also most likely to change their ideas when they're making the movie. During the filming, Cameron wanted to include the chip reset scene and the future coda ending. He got rid of the chip reset scene because of time restraints and he got rid of the future coda at the last possible moment because it didn't screen well. There's a huge difference between what the directors though during the filming, after the filming, and when the film is released. Only after a period of time, can they actually reflect on the entirety of their experience, including all the times they changed their opinions and ideas.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Nov 24, 2008 2:42:22 GMT -5
Regardless of what James Cameron might have said or what his intentions were, the movie as he filmed it really doesn't provide any evidence for his assertions at all, still less Sarah Connor's ruminations on the end result.
Of course, that's not necessarily Cameron's fault - he was limited in time to tell his story. And it was an action movie with limited ability to develop characterization.
But I simply don't see where "Uncle Bob" ever learned to "value human life", as Sarah says. Where does he ever say that? Where does he ever demonstrate that? He accepted John's orders not to kill humans, but as far as I can tell, he never understood why. In fact, he kept asking "why" and never got a straight answer from John, not even a lecture on conventional human morality or legal systems or even a lecture on bringing heat from the cops down. He held up his hand and swore not to kill anybody, clearly without a clue as to why that ritual held any meaning to John.
Then he cripples a cop for life by kneecapping him, and later cripples a dozen more for life by kneecapping them. I don't think the cops appreciated his "valuing human life" or his dismissive "He'll live" comment. ;D
Also, Josh Friedman wants to tell his own story. So he doesn't have to follow Cameron's lead in the treatment of Terminators at all. And with his much greater lattitude for characterization in terms of time, he can definitely do a closer and deeper examination that James Cameron ever could.
As I've argued elsewhere, there's a strong case to be made for not taking the usual approach and for using the unemotional AI's nature as a counterpoint to the exploration of human nature - and AI nature. It allows for exploring all sorts of things from multiple perspectives - which is much more valuable than simply rehashing the old "machines become human" trope.
That's also one reason I'd like to see Transhumanist characters introduced into the show - they'd be the perfect conduit to explore both Cameron's nature and human nature, because while still human, they think differently about human nature than ordinary humans do. The audience could be exposed to entirely different ways of viewing events than the simplistic "good vs evil" and "human vs machine" dichotomies.
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Post by vicheron on Nov 24, 2008 21:42:12 GMT -5
Uncle Bob went against John's orders and sacrificed himself to prevent his chip from being used to create Skynet.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Nov 25, 2008 1:18:22 GMT -5
Which of course has nothing to do with "valuing human life".
He was able to override John's order because it conflicted with future John's original orders. Not surprising. To complete his mission, he had to destroy himself - although he was not able to do it directly. I find it interesting that he could override that inability to self-terminate by allowing someone else to do it for him. A real machine's logic probably would not accept that solution.
Basically, all this shows again is that James Cameron was more interested in telling a story than being logically coherent.
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Post by vicheron on Nov 25, 2008 2:25:28 GMT -5
Except that there's nothing to suggest that future John programmed Uncle Bob to destroy himself after completing his mission. The only two mission objectives that were explicitly stated were protect John Connor and follow John Connor's orders. Uncle Bob went against John's orders to sacrifice himself. It has to do with valuing human life because Uncle Bob was essentially giving humanity a chance to redeem itself.
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Post by chrisimo on Nov 25, 2008 2:39:36 GMT -5
Except that there's nothing to suggest that future John programmed Uncle Bob to destroy himself after completing his mission. The only two mission objectives that were explicitly stated were protect John Connor and follow John Connor's orders. Uncle Bob went against John's orders to sacrifice himself. It has to do with valuing human life because Uncle Bob was essentially giving humanity a chance to redeem itself. Since Skynet was destroyed the best way Uncle Bob could protect John Connor was to terminate himself. |
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Post by vicheron on Nov 25, 2008 2:55:43 GMT -5
Of course that's not what Uncle Bob said. T2 is not "The Usual Suspects" or "Pan's Labyrinth," there's really not much subtlety in the movie, James Cameron practically shoves the moral lesson down your throat.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Nov 25, 2008 3:17:23 GMT -5
I still don't see any direct statement or direct interpretation of Uncle Bob's actions in terminating himself that specifically indicates that he "learned to value human lives."
You say that there's nothing to indicate that future John programmed Uncle Bob to terminate himself after completing his mission. That wasn't required.
You forget the whole point of that last exercise - to destroy all the evidence of a Terminator's existence. It was Uncle Bob who specified that "there was one more chip" and "it must be destroyed also."
Obviously that was an entirely logical reaction based on his mission parameters. His job was to protect John Connor SO THAT Skynet could be destroyed. The only way to insure Skynet would not be recreated from either the original Terminator or himself or the T-1000 is to insure the destruction of all three.
It's not really hard to figure out. Uncle Bob said it during the meeting with Dyson - the Cyberdyne chip must be destroyed. It logically follows that his must be destroyed.
And there's nothing in that fact to indicate anything whatsoever to do with valuing human life on his part.
You're correct that this was not a complicated movie. And there was nothing in the dialog or action to suggest that Uncle Bob valued human lives EXCEPT FOR Sarah's ruminations at the end.
Well, fine, if that's what Cameron wanted us to believe. Unfortunately he didn't establish that with Uncle Bob's actual words and actions, but merely Sarah's relfections.
That's all I'm saying. It wasn't established, merely asserted.
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Post by vicheron on Nov 25, 2008 4:07:42 GMT -5
Of course it has only been stated that Uncle Bob was programmed to protect John and he has never shown the ability to make long term decisions based on that order. Uncle Bob only went against John's order once before the end and that was when John was in immediate danger. Uncle Bob went to Pescadero despite the threat of the T-1000, same thing with the Dyson's and Cyberdyne. If he didn't destroy himself, the potential of his chip being used to create Skynet will take years to be realized. Uncle Bob knew with a great deal of certainty that the T-1000 was going to be at Pescadero, he knew for certain that the T-1000 would get to them at Cyberdyne, however he could not have predicted the chances of his chip being used to make Skynet.
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Post by chrisimo on Nov 25, 2008 5:57:36 GMT -5
Of course it has only been stated that Uncle Bob was programmed to protect John and he has never shown the ability to make long term decisions based on that order. Uncle Bob only went against John's order once before the end and that was when John was in immediate danger. Uncle Bob went to Pescadero despite the threat of the T-1000, same thing with the Dyson's and Cyberdyne. If he didn't destroy himself, the potential of his chip being used to create Skynet will take years to be realized. Uncle Bob knew with a great deal of certainty that the T-1000 was going to be at Pescadero, he knew for certain that the T-1000 would get to them at Cyberdyne, however he could not have predicted the chances of his chip being used to make Skynet. Great, then why did he want to terminate himself? Yes, he went with John to Pescadero and to the Dyson's despite the danger. But that was because Sarah is very important to John and John wouldn't have cooperated with him if he had insisted on leaving Sarah alone. With the immediate threat of the T-1000 removed there was only one threat left, the possible creation of Skynet. And to end that threat he had to terminate himself. |
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Post by vicheron on Nov 25, 2008 6:24:59 GMT -5
Of course it has only been stated that Uncle Bob was programmed to protect John and he has never shown the ability to make long term decisions based on that order. Uncle Bob only went against John's order once before the end and that was when John was in immediate danger. Uncle Bob went to Pescadero despite the threat of the T-1000, same thing with the Dyson's and Cyberdyne. If he didn't destroy himself, the potential of his chip being used to create Skynet will take years to be realized. Uncle Bob knew with a great deal of certainty that the T-1000 was going to be at Pescadero, he knew for certain that the T-1000 would get to them at Cyberdyne, however he could not have predicted the chances of his chip being used to make Skynet. Great, then why did he want to terminate himself? Read the rest of the thread. You're missing the point. It was explicitly stated that Uncle Bob had two directives, protect John Connor and follow John Connor's orders. He followed John's orders to rescue Sarah despite the fact that it would put John in danger. The only time prior to the end of the movie where he didn't follow John's order was when John was in immediate danger. At the end of the film, John ordered Uncle Bob not to destroy himself, he disobeyed the order despite the fact that there was no immediate danger. Also, Uncle Bob was programmed to protect John, not to eliminate possible threats to John. Originally, their plan was to just run and hide. They were forced into a confrontation with the T-1000, which they tried to escape but were unsuccessful. Had they actually been able to escape the T-1000, they would have just kept running. Plus Skynet wasn't the only threat left. The threat of the police was much more immediate and John's life will be fraught with dangers even if Skynet doesn't get built. Sarah was in no condition to protect John, she was bleeding all over the place, John would actually have to take care of her. |
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