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Post by chrisimo on Nov 25, 2008 7:10:00 GMT -5
Great, then why did he want to terminate himself? Read the rest of the thread. You said the following: So why did he want to terminate himself? He could just go on and protect John from all harm until his power cell runs out or John is dead. Then shortly before that, he could have been terminated. You're missing the point. It was explicitly stated that Uncle Bob had two directives, protect John Connor and follow John Connor's orders. He followed John's orders to rescue Sarah despite the fact that it would put John in danger. Yes, because he couldn't protect John very well if John wouldn't cooperate. At the end of the film, John ordered Uncle Bob not to destroy himself, he disobeyed the order despite the fact that there was no immediate danger. Yes, the only great threat left was the possible creation of Skynet. If he didn't think that it is likely that Skynet would be created, he didn't need to terminate himself. Also, Uncle Bob was programmed to protect John, not to eliminate possible threats to John. Protecting John can mean a lot of things depending on the situation. Originally, their plan was to just run and hide. They were forced into a confrontation with the T-1000, which they tried to escape but were unsuccessful. Had they actually been able to escape the T-1000, they would have just kept running. Yes, because the T-1000 was a more advanced model and Uncle Bob thought it was unlikely that he could defeat it. Running away was the best option. Plus Skynet wasn't the only threat left. The threat of the police was much more immediate and John's life will be fraught with dangers even if Skynet doesn't get built. Sarah was in no condition to protect John, she was bleeding all over the place, John would actually have to take care of her. So Uncle Bob could just have waited until John has lived his life before terminating himself.
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Post by vicheron on Nov 25, 2008 17:22:39 GMT -5
Read the rest of the thread. You said the following: So why did he want to terminate himself? He could just go on and protect John from all harm until his power cell runs out or John is dead. Then shortly before that, he could have been terminated. It's that "valuing human life" thing. It wasn't just about John anymore. Uncle Bob terminated himself to give humanity another chance. He knew that if he stayed with John, he would have a better chance of protecting John from harm but there will always be the chance that his chip could be used to create Skynet, which will kill half of the humans on earth. That was never a problem. It wasn't until John ordered Uncle Bob to save Sarah that he went with him. Uncle Bob was trying to stop John before John learned that he could order him around. And Uncle Bob never displayed the ability to follow the "protect John" directive that far. Again, I must restate that Uncle Bob had two directives, protect John Connor and follow John Connor's orders. Uncle Bob has never displayed the ability to go against John's orders when it only leads to potential danger. How did Uncle Bob think the Connors would fare against half of the police force of California? Uncle Bob had to weigh the risk between protecting John and his chip being used to make Skynet. By staying around longer, he can better protect John but he would also risk his chip being used to create Skynet. He made a choice that would put John in more danger but could potentially save millions of people.
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Post by chrisimo on Nov 25, 2008 17:47:34 GMT -5
It's that "valuing human life" thing. It wasn't just about John anymore. Uncle Bob terminated himself to give humanity another chance. He knew that if he stayed with John, he would have a better chance of protecting John from harm but there will always be the chance that his chip could be used to create Skynet, which will kill half of the humans on earth. The problem is that the creation of Skynet would also pose a threat to John (greater than the police force of California), which is why terminating himself coincided nicely with his primary objective. Again, I must restate that Uncle Bob had two directives, protect John Connor and follow John Connor's orders. And you propose that he suddenly acted against both directives while at the same time [...] Uncle Bob never displayed the ability to follow the "protect John" directive that far.
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Post by vicheron on Nov 25, 2008 18:25:04 GMT -5
It's that "valuing human life" thing. It wasn't just about John anymore. Uncle Bob terminated himself to give humanity another chance. He knew that if he stayed with John, he would have a better chance of protecting John from harm but there will always be the chance that his chip could be used to create Skynet, which will kill half of the humans on earth. The problem is that the creation of Skynet would also pose a threat to John (greater than the police force of California), which is why terminating himself coincided nicely with his primary objective. The police force was an imminent threat. Skynet was far off in the future and it's not even guaranteed to happen. Even if Uncle Bob had gained the ability to make long term decisions based on the "protect John Connor" order, it wouldn't make any sense for him to ignore an immediate threat in order to prevent a potential threat that may or may not manifest and even if it does, will take years to do so. That's like trying to prevent someone from getting lung cancer from smoking while ignoring the fact that the person has been marked for death by the mob. And that would go with the whole "valuing human life" thing.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Nov 25, 2008 19:35:17 GMT -5
Uncle Bob terminated himself to give humanity another chance. Now THAT'S entirely your interpretation. There was absolutely nothing in the script or his actions to indicate that. He terminated himself because it was logical that all possibility of the creation of Skynet had to be prevented - which required the destruction of the original Terminator chip and arm, and the T-1000, and himself. It was pure logic, nothing more. You may feel that the CONSEQUENCES of doing that gave humanity another chance, but there was nothing in his statements or actions that indicated that he CARED about that beyond the logical necessity of preventing Skynet from arising. And that logical necessity was specified by both John and Sarah and that was why he knew it was important. The whole second half of the movie was about preventing Skynet, not just protecting John. He obeyed John's orders in that regard, and therefore it was logical that he be destroyed at the end as a logical extension of John's orders to help Sarah as well as John destroy the original Terminator remains. There simply is nothing in the movie, aside from James Cameron's verbal intentions, to indicate that he ever either experienced human emotions or developed any real empathy for humans, at least beyond John.
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Post by vicheron on Nov 25, 2008 19:47:15 GMT -5
John ordered Uncle Bob not to sacrifice himself. John never ordered him to prevent the creation of Skynet at all costs. Uncle Bob should have followed John's orders not to sacrifice himself but he didn't.
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Post by stealthgear on Nov 25, 2008 21:43:43 GMT -5
I don't think it was clear that Arnie gained emotions. He lowered himself into the lava. Emotions are low level things that are there to insure survival. When he said he got it, he meant that he understood what they were going through. Understanding is not the same as feeling. Thats the way I always took it. I really don't believe there is a use for emotion or that it is possible/desireable in the terminator.
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Post by chrisimo on Nov 26, 2008 2:51:56 GMT -5
The police force was an imminent threat. So what should he do about them? Fight them? That would bring even more attraction and maybe even actions from the military. Skynet was far off in the future and it's not even guaranteed to happen. Even if Uncle Bob had gained the ability to make long term decisions based on the "protect John Connor" order, Hey, you are saying that he defied both of his directives, but the possibility that he may actuallty follow his primary objective through by all means is somehow unlikely for you. it wouldn't make any sense for him to ignore an immediate threat in order to prevent a potential threat that may or may not manifest and even if it does, will take years to do so. No, it will not take years. If Skynet will still be built in the future it can send a Terminator back to any year. A Terminator could arrive one day after the T-1000 was melted away. That's like trying to prevent someone from getting lung cancer from smoking while ignoring the fact that the person has been marked for death by the mob. Equalling the police with the mafia doesn't make much sense.
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Post by vicheron on Nov 26, 2008 3:28:09 GMT -5
The police force was an imminent threat. So what should he do about them? Fight them? That would bring even more attraction and maybe even actions from the military. That's a false dilemma. Why would Uncle Bob staying to protect John suddenly make him a complete moron? He never displayed that capability. Also, sacrificing himself will not fulfill his primary directive. The only way that he could possibly "fulfill" that directive is if he makes sure that John Connor lives through his natural life. That's just ridiculous. Uncle Bob doesn't understand how time travel works, for all he knows, if he prevents the creation of Skynet, John Connor would cease to exist since Kyle Reese would never get sent back. Sarah just blew up a building. Uncle Bob knee capped a bunch of swat officers. The police think that they also murdered a bunch of people. The police are going to shoot Sarah on sight. They shot Miles Dyson on sight and they didn't even get a good look at him.
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Post by chrisimo on Nov 26, 2008 4:07:55 GMT -5
So what should he do about them? Fight them? That would bring even more attraction and maybe even actions from the military. That's a false dilemma. Why would Uncle Bob staying to protect John suddenly make him a complete moron? Either he fights them or he doesn't fight them. If he stays with them, this will result in more violent actions by the police because he is a well known cop killer. He also has already lost one arm. If someone sees him like that (and with his unhealed skin) he will attract even more attention. He never displayed that capability. Also, sacrificing himself will not fulfill his primary directive. The only way that he could possibly "fulfill" that directive is if he makes sure that John Connor lives through his natural life. Sacrificing himself will eliminate the greatest threat to John (more Terminators). The only way to make sure that no more Terminators are sent back is terminating himself. That's just ridiculous. Uncle Bob doesn't understand how time travel works, for all he knows, if he prevents the creation of Skynet, John Connor would cease to exist since Kyle Reese would never get sent back. He obviously understands enough to assume that killing Miles Dyson might prevent Judgement Day, even though that might collide with the whole Kyle/John story. And he doesn't mention anything anything about the possibility that John ceases to exist. He obviously understands enough about time travel. He understands that Skynet can send Terminators back. So as long as Skynet exists in the future, it can possibly send back more Terminators. Sarah just blew up a building. Uncle Bob knee capped a bunch of swat officers. The police think that they also murdered a bunch of people. The police are going to shoot Sarah on sight. They shot Miles Dyson on sight and they didn't even get a good look at him. They shot Myles Dyson because Uncle Bob was with them. You know, the guy who killed everyone in a police station some years ago. The guy who just before opened fire with a minigun on the police.
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timstuff
Private
Scary robot? Naw...
Posts: 232
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Post by timstuff on Nov 26, 2008 5:22:31 GMT -5
That means Josh's idea of not exploring Cameron gaining humanity is not in keeping with the Terminator universe because James Cameron was not looking at just your typical AI platform in a scientific sense. There were fantasy elements weaved in as well, so that his point could be made that if a killer machine could gain his humanity maybe we humans could too. That kind of irks me about the direction Josh seems to be taking Cam and the other advanced Terminators. Personally, I think that Josh's comments about not exploring Cameron "becoming more human" was just a red herring, because they came about 2 weeks before "Allison from Palmdale" aired. That episode was a pretty glaring demonstration of just how human Cameron could potentially become, which would seem to negate Josh's previous comments about not exploring a "human" side of Cameron.
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Post by marblator on Jan 13, 2009 8:32:29 GMT -5
They seem to have COMPLETELY forgotten Uncle Bob and they need to discuss him and his rapport with John. Also... I ask again, why can Arnie's Terminator feel and love and "get it," but Cameron seemingly cannot? Good point. However, I'm uncertain that the T-800 (I can't call him Uncle Bob..) actually felt emotion, at least not in the way we do. He did seem to have an insight into them at the end though. I have mixed feelings about that end scene. I kind of wish they'd left out the 'now I understand why you cry' bit. It felt a bit sugary (he is a killing machine after all) but I understand why they did it too. I think it is being explored to some extent. The Allison episode is a good example, although Cameron seemed to be pretty much reset in the next episode. As they have a series to work with, I think they're just dealing with these issues in a more gradual subtle way.
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