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Post by terminatornerd on Oct 25, 2008 17:29:21 GMT -5
I don't always agree with the analysis of EW writers, but this time I, for the most part, do. They had a recent article in Entertainment Weekly about struggling shows and how to bring them back from the brink... TSCC came up. The main premise to their argument is that the show needs to get back to basics. Basically, cut out the fat of many of the superfluous characters and stray plot lines being thrown down each episode that are jamming up the main story of John, Cameron, and Sarah and taking their fight to Skynet. As much as I like this show, I am beginning to see their point. In The Tower Is Tall we had one too many story lines introduced, which ate up precious air time from the main characters. Namely, Jesse. She should have been either left on the writers' room floor or left to a separate episode where they could focus on this development. We also have too many side characters and it's getting crowded and they're muddling up the works IMHO. We have Riley (which many people seemingly do not like so far, myself included), Kacy, Jesse, Catherine, Savannah, Charley, Agent Ellison, Cromartie, etc. We desperately need to get John, Cameron, and Sarah's characters back on track and interacting again as many of us liked in Season 1 and then expand them further. I also am very worried with the notion that the writers are not looking to "humanize" Cameron. How the heck will the audience relate to her if they don't? She's one of the, if not the, favorite character(s) on the show and she's so often side lined as if she's a side-kick character, except for the one excellent episode so far. She needs to be a front and center hero like John and Sarah or a golden opportunity with her character will have been wasted IMHO. It's also time to turn the current snarky relationship of John and Cameron around. Brother and sister... my ass! LOL! That's more freaky than human and cyborg lovin' (that us "shippers" are looking for)! Things need to start heating up, and I don't mean the frying pan that Sarah cooks flapjacks on! ;D Riley needs to disappear. Talk about a superfluous, vapid character! And she sucks screen time away (like money from John's wallet) from John and Cameron and their popular interactions. Also, we need some VERY, VERY intense and dramatic action and fire fight sequences in the present and in the "Future" to establish just what our heroes are trying to fight against... a holocaust of immense proportions... a living nightmare, hell on Earth. Make the sweat drip from our foreheads and our hands clasp the seat cushions with tension! That has been mostly missing from this show, and it isn't called "Terminator" for nothing! You want some ideas? Look at the fantastic, classic movie "Aliens" for inspiration. Just a few of my $.02 worth. Have at it!
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Post by hobs202 on Oct 25, 2008 19:48:38 GMT -5
"Also, we need some VERY, VERY intense and dramatic action and fire fight sequences in the present and in the "Future" to establish just what our heroes are trying to fight against... a holocaust of immense proportions... a living nightmare, hell on Earth. Make the sweat drip from our foreheads and our hands clasp the seat cushions with tension!"
This is a TV show with a limited budget. It can't afford to have the same amount of action as seen in the movies.
And one of the main characters is supposedly going to bite the dust sooner or later this season - so that might solve your problem of "too many characters."
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schmacky
Major
"Make yourself useful."
Posts: 522
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Post by schmacky on Oct 25, 2008 20:17:20 GMT -5
It's also time to turn the current snarky relationship of John and Cameron around. Brother and sister... my ass! LOL! That's more freaky than human and cyborg lovin' (that us "shippers" are looking for)! Things need to start heating up, and I don't mean the frying pan that Sarah cooks flapjacks on! ;D Riley needs to disappear. Talk about a superfluous, vapid character! And she sucks screen time away (like money from John's wallet) from John and Cameron and their popular interactions. The brother and sister relationship is a cover up.. .the "lovin" wouldn't be and THAT is disturbing (to the non "shippers" anyhow). How has Riley sucked away John and Cameron screen time? Riley has been in two episodes out of six.. tell me how she greatly effects John and Cameron's relationship? In the last three episodes, John and Cameron have uttered maybe 10 words to each other and in all three of those episodes Riley wasn't anywhere around so how can you blame her?
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k8ie
Corporal
Posts: 1,482
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Post by k8ie on Oct 25, 2008 20:25:34 GMT -5
Let's not humanize Cameron. That's been done and done and done to death (most recently by BSG).
She's a cyborg and it's really interesting (to me) to see her and John and Sarah deal with that.
That said, while there has been an element of cast bloat so far this season and three episodes in a row where Sarah quite literally sits around is at least two in a row too many, in reality this is TSCC's first season in many ways. The show is still very much finding its feet, discovering what works and what doesn't. The creative process was disrupted all to hell by the writer's strike and I think TSCC deserves more than six episodes before people start opining on how to "fix" the show.
I may not love every last detail but TSCC is far from broken IMO
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traitorsgate
Sergeant
This is Cam. She's trained for an Off-World kick murder squad. Talk about Beauty and the Beast.
Posts: 264
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Post by traitorsgate on Oct 25, 2008 20:50:57 GMT -5
The other way of looking at the viewpoint of this article is that the writers are expanding the character base as a result of realising that Sarah & John Connor are becoming increasingly redundant. The constant time travelling really does offer up the possibility that a future resistance can quite easily exist without the Connors. The longer this series lasts the more likely it is people will start to admit that TSCC has genuinely outgrown the original, overly simplistic premise laid out in T1 & T2. By introducing a wider character base to work from the writers are giving themselves the opportunity to expand the Terminator storyline beyond the Connors.
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Post by theturk on Oct 25, 2008 21:29:54 GMT -5
I'd take the article a little more seriously if they didn't harp on the need to get rid of Charley Dixon and focus on Terminators trying to kill John Connor-- when we haven't seen Charley since he was featured in an episode where a Terminator tried to kill John Connor!
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k8ie
Corporal
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Post by k8ie on Oct 25, 2008 21:38:18 GMT -5
Hmmm, my Spidey-sense tells me EW is gonna get one heck of a po'd letter from Allergygal this week (btw it would be nice if my subscription to EW arrived *before* the mag hit the newsstands).
And is it even possible to focus more on Terminators trying to kill John Connor?
I mean, seriously.
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Post by terminatornerd on Oct 26, 2008 2:31:53 GMT -5
I'm talking about (and they're talking about in a generalized way) that there is too much bloat. TSCC is starting to lose its focus and its forward momentum and drive, and that may be one reason it's shedding viewers like fleas on a dog dipped in powder (besides its horrible Monday night slot). Sarah sits around, Cameron sits around (when not making a Terminator pretzel), John is starting to sit around, Derek goes to the park and sits. They're seemingly spinning their wheels when the end of the world is nigh. There needs to be an immediacy to their actions and plans. It's time to kick some major butt and be proactive. Go hunting Cromartie instead of hiding or running from him, etc. Of course, I like the fact that John and Cameron are having issues of their own, but while they're dealing with them, they need to continue to fight and struggle with the enemy. Confront each other and ask for or offer emotional help rather than pining away in the dark for it. Cameron and John should be there for each other. As for Cameron and John, having them become an "item" is very much in keeping with the idea of hope and progression in the world of human and machine interaction started in T2. It's almost like forbidden love... they must armor themselves for the onslaught of the inevitable negative backlash by the people around them who do not understand. Having Cameron finally confide in John her terrible secrets as a way of unburdening herself and washing away the taint of sin surrounding those actions would be a giant step forward. She sees the consequences of what she has done in the past, she understands that she must make amends to the one she loves, so that John will see she is a changed person and can be trusted and loved in return. On the other hand, John asks Cameron for forgiveness for his behavior towards her. Expanding upon the parenting motif, I would find it a wonderful act of compassion if Cameron takes a keen interest in Savannah, so that if Catherine is bumped off, the little girl still has Cameron and John to protect her and I guess you could say "parent" her. She becomes like "Newt" to Cameron's "Ripley." Cameron has seen the beauty of human reproduction... to have a child nurished in a woman's body... an act of creation rather than destruction. She, unfortunately, cannot be a part of that. This is the next best thing. By basically adopting Savannah and showing that she cares for the girl, it says that Cameron has seen the light. Hope is real. She has evolved beyond. Cameron and John complete the cycle started by Sarah and Kyle... they are a loving, accepting family and an inspiration. So, in the end, why can't we all be this way? -------- Future sequences don't have to be loaded with SFX. Establishing shots are needed mainly, the bulk of the action can be inside tunnels, bunkers, etc. Cloak the fact that they have a small budget and smaller sets with a fog machine (like they did with Aliens, another very tight budgeted production... and look how well it turned out!) and forced perspective, and get creative. Can't have armies of endoskeletons? Only have a few at a time in a shot and do a little fancy editing. Show soldiers firing and yelling and screaming at nothing but approaching sound effects... (again, it worked in Aliens). Again, cloak the proceedings in darkness and fog and shadow. Makes for a very eerie and creepy mood. Have some nasty, simple Skynet machine "things" jump out at you from the shadows, not just complex endos. And intensify the score, fill it with dread, and when called for, excitement. Another thing they could improve greatly with no addition to the budget at all. There are ways to do these things on a shoestring and still get a lot of tension built up in a scene. Humor is one way to do it. It disarms the audience and then... whamo! I bring you James Cameron's "Aliens" again (it is a perfect example of how to hide a multitude of sins because of a lower budget, and still have excitement and dread, and interesting character interaction, and totally intense, kick ass music): www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5zL9hhRxpswww.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr1oMX46NBcwww.youtube.com/watch?v=YBJYjGWCOwswww.youtube.com/watch?v=A9MjJxGYO64The drop ship (two are featured in the film, but to save on time and money... only one was created; one side had "01" decals and the other side had "02" decals and they switched sides of the model to be filmed depending on which drop ship was being flown by the characters) is a detailed, radio controlled servo model on thin piano wire on a motion control gimbal, the buildings are also detailed models. Many exterior shots of the ground assault tank and all-terrain vehicles are also of radio controlled models. The extended backdrops are created with rear projection of table top miniatures or detailed paintings. The interior sets are all smaller than you think because they are obscured with shadow and smoke and carefully placed lighting. There were only a few alien creatures made by Stan Winston that were used and reused. Notice you only see one or a small handful in a shot at once. The rest of the time it's quick cutting and reaction shots of the main characters to simulate an attack by a huge swarm. Your imagination fills in the blanks. James Cameron was a master at utilizing all the tools at his disposal to come in at or under budget and deliver the goods the audience demanded. And his first movies very often had shoe string budgets, even for major motion pictures. Something to consider.
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Post by allergygal on Oct 26, 2008 3:16:23 GMT -5
Hmmm, my Spidey-sense tells me EW is gonna get one heck of a po'd letter from Allergygal this week Nobody puts Charley in a corner.
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Post by driftlight23 on Oct 26, 2008 5:09:03 GMT -5
I completely agree. I want her to be Cameron, not Allison.
Even though I'd love to see something intense (and no doubt intensely screwed up) occur eventually between J/C, I can't bear the thought of 'domesticating' Cameron and John in any shape or form, not at the cost of their characters.
And this is not to deny Cameron's ability to develop her equivalent of love or empathy, or John's right to some peace and happiness.
I just really don't see a scenario where the newly-wed Mr & Mrs Connor are settled down on the couch in their lovely home with an AIBO asleep in front of the fire, you know? That's just not who they are to me. And it's not what the show's about for me, either.
I don't have a problem with Riley so far. She's hardly been in the show - I thought we'd have seen a lot more of her by now. Although I'm not sure how it's going to play out with her character and the Connors - I don't want some SCC equivalent of the Scooby Gang running around - I sense that she's had an alienated childhood and John responds to that, and that will provide more insight into his character, into his problems - I think he can talk to her, unlike any of the others.
And as for Cam... she's a tiger. Ask Siegfried and Roy about working with tigers.
ETA: Edited 'cos I missed out a quote.
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Post by allergygal on Oct 26, 2008 6:30:32 GMT -5
I'm talking about (and they're talking about in a generalized way) that there is too much bloat. TSCC is starting to lose its focus and its forward momentum and drive, and that may be one reason it's shedding viewers like fleas on a dog dipped in powder (besides its horrible Monday night slot). Sarah sits around, Cameron sits around (when not making a Terminator pretzel), John is starting to sit around, Derek goes to the park and sits. They're seemingly spinning their wheels when the end of the world is nigh. There needs to be an immediacy to their actions and plans. It's time to kick some major butt and be proactive. Go hunting Cromartie instead of hiding or running from him, etc. I sort of agree. This season started strong but it's lost itself along the way. It's skirting the edges of becoming terminator-of-the-week. There are too many extraneous characters and subplots. Time travel is being way over-used. Missions seem to flash by while character arcs crawl. Ellison has become so fast-forward worthy it's sad. Charley's off mourning in parts unknown. Catherine is just now beginning to get interesting. Sarah and John are still estranged. We only just got a clue why Derek's been off his game. Cameron is still dangerous but no one's worried about it. And the all-important Turk hasn't even been mentioned by our main characters since the first episode. I want to love this season like I love season 1. I hope they turn it around soon.
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traitorsgate
Sergeant
This is Cam. She's trained for an Off-World kick murder squad. Talk about Beauty and the Beast.
Posts: 264
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Post by traitorsgate on Oct 26, 2008 7:03:44 GMT -5
Even though I'd love to see something intense (and no doubt intensely screwed up) occur eventually between J/C, I can't bear the thought of 'domesticating' Cameron and John in any shape or form, not at the cost of their characters. And this is not to deny Cameron's ability to develop her equivalent of love or empathy, or John's right to some peace and happiness. It just amazes me that this whole John & Cameron thing still persists. I've always been curious as to how many people would still be keen to see John & Cameron hooking up if Cameron was a Male Bot. Let's face it all the quasi pseudo intellectual arguments about the evolution of Human relationships that so many people pretend to hide behind would still be valid. The only extra emotional hurdle you'd have to deal with is the homosexual slant, and surely that shouldn't be an issue. Especially for people who consider themselves avant-garde in that they think that John Connor living happily ever after with his Cam Bot is entirely feasible.
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Post by terminatornerd on Oct 26, 2008 7:59:26 GMT -5
I completely agree. I want her to be Cameron, not Allison. Even though I'd love to see something intense (and no doubt intensely screwed up) occur eventually between J/C, I can't bear the thought of 'domesticating' Cameron and John in any shape or form, not at the cost of their characters. And this is not to deny Cameron's ability to develop her equivalent of love or empathy, or John's right to some peace and happiness. I just really don't see a scenario where the newly-wed Mr & Mrs Connor are settled down on the couch in their lovely home with an AIBO asleep in front of the fire, you know? That's just not who they are to me. And it's not what the show's about for me, either. I don't have a problem with Riley so far. She's hardly been in the show - I thought we'd have seen a lot more of her by now. Although I'm not sure how it's going to play out with her character and the Connors - I don't want some SCC equivalent of the Scooby Gang running around - I sense that she's had an alienated childhood and John responds to that, and that will provide more insight into his character, into his problems - I think he can talk to her, unlike any of the others. And as for Cam... she's a tiger. Ask Siegfried and Roy about working with tigers. I don't want Cameron to be Alison either. She should be her own "person," but I think even though she can't be a full fledged human she shouldn't be stuck in cyborg-land either and should be given instead "humanity." There is a difference. You have to pull her away from paroting. This is what bugged the holy hell out of me in "Alison From Palmdale." They made it seem like she has no personality, but for whom she is immitating. That's not evolution, that's being a sophisticated Minah bird. You never saw that with Arnie in T2. He started expressing himself in his own way. Who could forget the ad lib: "I need a vacation!" It spoke volumes with one little sentence. The emotions have to start coming from somewhere "magical" deep inside herself, not from Alison, but from Cameron. A psychological separation from Alison must occur. I think the best way to do it is for her to own up to her past mistakes and misdeeds. I, Cameron... killed Alison. I am NOT Alison. I did something bad for which I am ashamed. She starts reliving the event where she broke Alison's neck like a type of running day dream (or daytime nightmare) that is troubling to her, much like John with Sarkissian. It causes her to seek out John's help. Something is not right... I'm feeling something I have never experienced and it's scary: remorse. This allows Cameron to do something that no Terminator has ever, ever done before: Ask for forgiveness. How do you own up to something as heinous as murder? You seek out the party who has been wronged and try to excise those demons by throwing yourself on their tender mercies: in this case it's Alison Young and her mother and father, who are very much alive. How's that for a twist? John takes Cameron to Palmdale to visit Alison Young's parents and come clean. Derek and Sarah are totally dead set against this idea, but John does it anyway for Cameron as a token of love. Heck, you could almost call the episode "Mother and Child Reunion" like the Paul Simon song. Whether or not it goes well for Cameron with this strange meeting, "Future" Alison is laid to rest finally. And Cameron can move on with being just Cameron, no longer beset by her own past misconducts and personal demons. In a way she's telling the unborn Alison that she has pledged herself to seeing to it that she does have a future... she'll do what she can to stop this horror of JD from ever occuring. She can start fresh and be a hero.
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alexina
Refugee
Winner Halloween 08 Banner Challenge
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Post by alexina on Oct 26, 2008 9:56:43 GMT -5
I completely agree. I want her to be Cameron, not Allison. Even though I'd love to see something intense (and no doubt intensely screwed up) occur eventually between J/C, I can't bear the thought of 'domesticating' Cameron and John in any shape or form, not at the cost of their characters. And this is not to deny Cameron's ability to develop her equivalent of love or empathy, or John's right to some peace and happiness. I just really don't see a scenario where the newly-wed Mr & Mrs Connor are settled down on the couch in their lovely home with an AIBO asleep in front of the fire, you know? That's just not who they are to me. And it's not what the show's about for me, either. I don't have a problem with Riley so far. She's hardly been in the show - I thought we'd have seen a lot more of her by now. Although I'm not sure how it's going to play out with her character and the Connors - I don't want some SCC equivalent of the Scooby Gang running around - I sense that she's had an alienated childhood and John responds to that, and that will provide more insight into his character, into his problems - I think he can talk to her, unlike any of the others. And as for Cam... she's a tiger. Ask Siegfried and Roy about working with tigers. I don't want Cameron to be Alison either. She should be her own "person," but I think even though she can't be a full fledged human she shouldn't be stuck in cyborg-land either and should be given instead "humanity." There is a difference. You have to pull her away from paroting. This is what bugged the holy hell out of me in "Alison From Palmdale." They made it seem like she has no personality, but for whom she is immitating. That's not evolution, that's being a sophisticated Minah bird. You never saw that with Arnie in T2. He started expressing himself in his own way. Who could forget the ad lib: "I need a vacation!" It spoke volumes with one little sentence. The emotions have to start coming from somewhere "magical" deep inside herself, not from Alison, but from Cameron. A psychological separation from Alison must occur. I think the best way to do it is for her to own up to her past mistakes and misdeeds. I, Cameron... killed Alison. I am NOT Alison. I did something bad for which I am ashamed. She starts reliving the event where she broke Alison's neck like a type of running day dream (or daytime nightmare) that is troubling to her, much like John with Sarkissian. It causes her to seek out John's help. Something is not right... I'm feeling something I have never experienced and it's scary: remorse. This allows Cameron to do something that no Terminator has ever, ever done before: Ask for forgiveness. How do you own up to something as heinous as murder? You seek out the party who has been wronged and try to excise those demons by throwing yourself on their tender mercies: in this case it's Alison Young and her mother and father, who are very much alive. How's that for a twist? John takes Cameron to Palmdale to visit Alison Young's parents and come clean. Derek and Sarah are totally dead set against this idea, but John does it anyway for Cameron as a token of love. Heck, you could almost call the episode "Mother and Child Reunion" like the Paul Simon song. Whether or not it goes well for Cameron with this strange meeting, "Future" Alison is laid to rest finally. And Cameron can move on with being just Cameron, no longer beset by her own past misconducts and personal demons. In a way she's telling the unborn Alison that she has pledged herself to seeing to it that she does have a future... she'll do what she can to stop this horror of JD from ever occuring. She can start fresh and be a hero. Well.... Other people can probably respond to this better than I can, but I'm just going to say I don't like this idea at all. Cameron with remorse? Not in the Terminator universe. Though, she can still learn the value of human life, just like Uncle Bob in T2. She doesn't have to "start fresh" to be the hero. And I think Cameron does have her own personality. If you look at the future (that is, past) Cameron and the present Cameron in "Alison from Palmdale," there's a very distinct difference between the two, yet they're the same. So obviously, Cameron has developed her own personality and continues to do so. Also, the only thing the "I need a vacation" quote spoke to me about was Arnold's role in the "Kindergarten Cop".
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Post by driftlight23 on Oct 26, 2008 10:48:28 GMT -5
The 'homosexual slant' as you put it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. I don't really have a problem with the nature of characters that hook up, if it works chemistry-wise. Aliens, robots, humans, whatever. It's fiction. And angsty screwed-up relationships are fantastically addictive. And half of me's totally soppy for doomed romance. ;D Anyway, nothing may happen. I can deal with it. I want decent characterisation and story more than anything else. (And the rest of this should probably be in the Cameron Philiips thread. Apologies, mods. This is going to be my final word on the subject today for time reasons.) If by 'humanity' you actually mean 'empathy', I can agree with you on that. That's what she can take from Allison - a better understanding of humanity, not necessarily humanity itself. At the end of the day, she is a synthetic-skin clad, metal endoskeleton-housed emergent strong AI. We have NO idea what the bounds and potential of 'cyborg-land' are. We are talking about an entity that can sense movement to an infinitely small degree with her bare feet. That sees along a visual spectrum that far exceeds our own. We may see her HUD from time to time, but we really *don't* know how she experiences the world, or what conclusions she's coming to about it. We don't know how she processes 'pain' or 'pleasure' - or what significance she attaches to them for herself. Maybe Cam doing that spoilery thing with her foot in that promo is a signifier of that to come, maybe she's copying something she saw on TV to learn about the concept. The mystery of that is one of my favourite things about the show, and I wouldn't like to see it rushed. Cameron understands the significance of such things for humans, and she responds to that. She's quite sensitive to people's feelings, emotional states, and yes, she is watching out for John particularly in this respect. That may even be 'love' for Cameron. But that's a side effect of her infiltration mode, I think. That Skynet may have underestimated the amount of empathy this allows Cameron to develop for her human charges is something that is definitely possible. Doesn't mean she has a 'magical' place inside her. It seems sometimes that Cameron accepts her true nature far better than John does. Everybody projects their desires and fears onto Cameron - John does it, we do it. We saw that Cameron's more overtly human 'emotions' are there to manipulate and infiltrate. We also saw that in S&D with the 'I love you' scene. She will not break down on anyone's shoulder and beg for forgiveness unless it's to get them to do something she wants. But if she did want to explore forgiveness and its relevance to her, I imagine she'd raise the subject in her own way with John or Sarah if she thought it was appropriate. I'm not certain Cameron would currently feel the need for forgiveness though. I might be wrong. 'Parroting' as you call it, is an innate part of what Cameron does and how she relates to the world. She mimics, she emulates. But, again, she does it with significance - whether to communicate a concept, to manipulate or to lie, and she can also improvise around it. That's where she's developing. She absorbs, she copies, but she learns from it. I thought what Cameron 'parroted' in AfP was hugely important. The events of AfP may have given her a new perspective on her own identity and on humans. I don't think she thinks she's Allison at all. I think she understands that. She doesn't seem to feel guilt or remorse like we do. She's just doing what she's been designed to do in that respect. In that sense she's like the Golem, or a fiery and terrible angelic spirit. And an innocent, if you like. That's part of her otherworldly aspect. She might develop a sense of guilt about it all, which would be fascinating. Ultimately their bond has to be stronger and more pragmatic than daydreams of romance or lust. If Cameron were to lose her skin, for example, something which seems to happen to all Terminators in the end, all John's fantasies would crumble into harsh machine reality. But he would still have a friend and a protector. And all this will be Joshed anyway.
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