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Post by terminatornerd on Oct 31, 2008 15:33:31 GMT -5
I'd take the article a little more seriously if they didn't harp on the need to get rid of Charley Dixon and focus on Terminators trying to kill John Connor-- when we haven't seen Charley since he was featured in an episode where a Terminator tried to kill John Connor! Personally, I don't see why they don't like Charley. I think he's a great character. Riley, on the other hand...
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tom
Private
I'll be back....as soon as I figure out how I can leave.
Posts: 128
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Post by tom on Nov 1, 2008 15:01:04 GMT -5
Riley, on the other hand... ..annoys the living dead out of me.
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Post by terminatornerd on Nov 1, 2008 19:03:52 GMT -5
Riley, on the other hand... ..annoys the living dead out of me. A-men!! ------------- As for NOT humanizing Cameron... this is a fundamental problem with this show and flies in the very face of James Cameron's story. And a perfect example what needs to be switched around FAST. That's why I'm putting these quotes in this thread... Sarah: "Watching John with the machine, it was suddenly so clear. The terminator wouldn't stop, it would never leave him. It would never hurt him, or shout at him, or get drunk and hit him, or say it was too busy to spend time with him. And it would die to protect him. Of all the would-be fathers that came over the years, this thing, this machine, was the only thing that measured up. In an insane world, it was the sanest choice." "The unknown future rolls toward us. I face it for the first time with a sense of hope because of a machine. A Terminator can learn the value of human life, maybe we can too." And here is a direct quote from James Cameron HIMSELF on a discussion about machines and emotions after T2 came out in theaters: "Essentially, you've got a character associated with being the quintessential killing machine; that is his purpose in life. Devoid of any emotion, remorse, or any kind of human social code, he suddenly finds himself in the strangest dilemma of his career. He can't kill anybody, and he doesn't know why. He's got to figure it out. He's got to, because he's half human. And he figures it out at the end. The Tin Man gets his heart." There is no manipulation involved, there are true feelings and emotions coming from a Terminator. There is HOPE. Change the show's direction, change Cameron back to the original James Cameron template, change the show's day and time, and you'll GAIN a lot of viewers back... I almost can guarantee it. Reading through some of these various boards, there are a lot of fans who are disappointed in the direction this show seems to be heading, and possibly even a bit of the tone since the country is in such distress right now. There's even an entire fan site devoted to John and Cameron! They liked John and Cameron and their close interactions (they're the most popular characters next to Sarah), they liked what was being set up in Season 1. Then you yanked the rug out from under them. I hope you will listen and take these things under advisement.
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traitorsgate
Sergeant
This is Cam. She's trained for an Off-World kick murder squad. Talk about Beauty and the Beast.
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Post by traitorsgate on Nov 1, 2008 19:32:26 GMT -5
MOD Note: Please, no discussion of politics on these forums.
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Post by terminatornerd on Nov 1, 2008 22:17:20 GMT -5
Huh , So you'd like TSCC to be realisation of the hopes of a bunch of Shippers because the US Economy is headed to the toilet (along with everyone else's for that matter) and you've all had to endure having an Intellectually Challenged Texan Halfwit in the White House for the last eight years? Well two thumbs up from me for coming up with the most original reason for wanting to steer the story in a certain direction. You're the only one who brought up politics. I'm saying that the country, for the most part, is hurting emotionally because of the financial meltdown. They want a little bit of hope and comfort, and a sense of fun. The show is grim and bleak, the characters rarely engage in playful or just enjoyable banter this season that brings a solid counterpoint to the grimness. The two main characters (John and Cameron) only received 9 episodes to start a special bond that was well received and now BAM! it's gone. Even in two Terminator films they had witty dialog and a sense of excitement sometimes. Then to put salt on the wound the creator of the series now openly does a 180 (from even the setup Sarah monologue at the end of The Demon Hand) and states that they are not following the James Cameron classic story... that they do not want to "humanize" Cameron, when that's exactly the path the creator of the Terminator universe chose. After all, Terminators are half human according to Mr. Cameron. And that contradicts the WHOLE POINT of the Terminator universe... that deadly machines can become as good or better than humans. At least some are becoming what we humans should aspire to be. Terminator 3 completely missed the point and that movie was widely criticized and panned as an empty husk in comparison to the other films. Heck, even Roger Ebert gave it a less than stellar review. "The first two Terminator movies, especially the second, belonged to [John W.] Campbell's tradition of S-F ideas. They played elegantly with the paradoxes of time travel, in films where the action scenes were necessary to the convoluted plot. There was actual poignancy in the dilemma of John Connor, responsible for a world that did not even yet exist." "The ending must remain for you to discover, but I will say it seems perfunctory--more like a plot development than a denouement in the history of humanity. The movie cares so exclusively about its handful of characters that what happens to them is of supreme importance, and the planet is merely a backdrop.Is "Terminator 3" a skillful piece of work? Indeed. Will it entertain the Friday night action crowd? You bet. Does it tease and intrigue us like the earlier films did? Not really."
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Post by t5000 on Dec 1, 2008 2:50:52 GMT -5
getting this show back on track .... probably wont happen in S-2 Josh is doing this show "his" way it is a slow story arc, with way too much time wasted on certain things like the pregnant neighbor [josh's idea] with riley they should have introduced her later in the season, or moved the character forward faster. as we all know now she is from the future and is her to humanize john, and get him away from cameron. with josh's story, "things changed" [in the future] in ep 2x01 when he didnt burn cameron. cameron said to him you cant be trusted now [by soldiers in future] this could upset people[by soldiers in future] _ not them [meaning not sarah-derek]" so this was the start of a season story arc which doesnt even make sense until ep 2x10 riley and jesse are the result of the change and also wall guy getting shot. I think the show lacks humour and upbeat scenes, it has too much gloom and infighting with the connor team, no one wants to see them fight or not like or trust each other. I think josh may be a good writer , but not a good producer. james middleton produced S-1 from ep 3 -9 as josh was off due to writer strike, and I think middleton did a better job with the show and the characters. then josh is back for S-2 , and also fox wanted some things changed and josh changed for them and himself, and now we have a gloomy slow paced show that only barely resembles the S-1 show we fell in love with. I will say this though some of it is good from ep 4 up cameron is more and more like S-1, and weaver gets more interesting with each show, and finally riley gets interesting, and jesse , I just want to see her get offed very soon as she is not very good actress. I always find the show entertaining , it just that it could be so much better. another thing is weaver and the connors, when will they find out about each other?? I am curious to see what happens in finale of ep 12, hopefully after that the pace will pick up. but even with all the flaws of this show it is still my fav show I always watch it 2-3 times , all other shows, once and thats it.
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Post by vicheron on Dec 1, 2008 4:39:04 GMT -5
I think the problem has more to do with the lack of action. The movies didn't become successful just by having great stories, it was the gun fights, the chase scenes, and the explosions. That's what the franchise is built on. "Casual viewers" watched the movies mainly because of the action. Even though a lot of people didn't like T3, it still has mostly positive reviews, 70% on Rottentomatoes with 189 reviews, and it made over $430 million world wide. That's mainly because it was a great action movie even though it may not have been a good Terminator movie. That's the audience that the show needs to attract in order to get ahead in the ratings. The show needs a combination of great story and great action. So far, it has one part down but lacks the other.
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Post by Derek Reese on Dec 30, 2008 16:23:39 GMT -5
I think the problem has more to do with the lack of action. The movies didn't become successful just by having great stories, it was the gun fights, the chase scenes, and the explosions. That's what the franchise is built on. "Casual viewers" watched the movies mainly because of the action. Even though a lot of people didn't like T3, it still has mostly positive reviews, 70% on Rottentomatoes with 189 reviews, and it made over $430 million world wide. That's mainly because it was a great action movie even though it may not have been a good Terminator movie. That's the audience that the show needs to attract in order to get ahead in the ratings. The show needs a combination of great story and great action. So far, it has one part down but lacks the other. Personally, I think Vic hit it on the head in regards to matters. I agree with the article on certain points and disagree in regards to their issues with Charley. He was probably one of my favorite characters throughout the first season, that really brought out some of Sarah's humanity. It felt like there was genuine love between them and the relationship was still there despite matters. As for Riley, I liked her to start out, but coming from the future pretty much took away that character's impact for me.
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Post by richardstevenhack on Dec 30, 2008 19:10:03 GMT -5
It's not really the number of characters in the show that is the problem. They really only have six major characters - John, Sarah, Cameron, Derek, Ellison, and Weaver. Charley is a side character, and I think he could be brought on as a main character without any real problems.
Jesse and Riley are side characters, their story arc should go for a while, then they get offed or whatever, possibly setting up a situation for another story arc in the next season.
The EW article is correct about one thing: the main two plot lines of the Terminator franchise are: 1) protect John Connor, and 2) stop Skynet from existing.
Those two plots need to be the core focus of the show, and everything else needs to feed into them. Any subplots that arise need to be about the problems that prevent the Connors from pursuing those two main plots. The Jesse and Riley story is an example.
Right now, one of those two plots is entirely missing - Cromartie has been effectively neutralized, John has no Terminator hunting him at all. That needs to be rectified, in season three, if not by end of season two.
The other main plot - stopping Skynet from existing - has been IGNORED for thirteen episodes. This is bad news and is the primary reason season two has suffered compared to season one.
As for the characterization, I really don't care what James Cameron thought about Uncle Bob. The reality is that in the movies, Uncle Bob did not actually show what Cameron said he did. He did not show that he became human, only that he understood humans better at the end. If Cameron wanted to show Uncle Bob becoming human in terms of emotional reactions, then he failed miserably.
Again, it would be far more interesting to see Cameron learning to deal with humans and express herself more as a human while at the same time clearly differentiating her from actually being human in terms of how her consciousness works. The audience up to now has had little difficulty relating to her because she's been the source of all the humor on the show. It is precisely her problems being an AI in human society that makes her interesting and even endearing. Changing her into just another normal human is hardly useful to the concept.
What would be far more interesting, to me, at least, is showing an intelligent entity that DOESN'T think or react like a human. In other words, exposing a different form of intelligent entity to the audience. A little mind expansion for the audience, being shown that being human isn't the be-all and end-all of the universe. And doing so without said entity being some sort of malevolent ugly alien, or some supernatural evil based on religious beliefs.
Star Trek really pioneered that approach with Mr. Spock. He wasn't a malevolent ugly alien, but he didn't think like humans. They let him be half human, so he had to deal with human emotions during the series. But they never let him become JUST human.
Cameron is Terminator's "Mr. Spock" and they need to keep her that way. She isn't human but she has to deal with humans and emulate humans. She's the character that can be used to show a different perspective on events and the human condition - a character, like someone once described Anne Rice's vampires, as "outside humanity but who can speak to the human condition."
This is far more fruitful a situation for plot lines and characterization than merely doing the humanizing the robot trick.
As for the show's other problems, someone on Matt Yglesias' site commented on "Battlestar Galactica" by saying the writers focus on pathos and are intent on torturing all the characters. This seems to be the way Terminator is being written. Sarah's and John's mental condition - even Cameron's, with her glitch - seems to be the entire focus of the season. This must be some sort of UCLA hack screenwriter's concept of the year or something since all the shows seem to be doing it. While it might be fine to use it for a while on one character, focusing the entire season around it at the expense of the two main plots of the franchise was not a good idea.
Terminator needs a change of focus by the end of season two, if it intends to see a season three, and it needs to keep that change of focus in season three and beyond - at least until it's sure it's got the viewers locked in.
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Post by dn38416 on Apr 27, 2009 19:07:31 GMT -5
Ive watched this show about 90% through. I havent seen the last 3 or so episodes of Season 2, and am not that enthused to do so. Here are my reasons why. The GoodI'll start out with the good aspects. John is decently portrayed, Lena Headey is a competent actress for Sarah Connor, Ellisons growth to believing was interesting, Derek Reese doesnt bring anything silly to the table either, and actually has some great lines. Cameron is probably my favorite here. T3 showed how you can trash the female terminator idea. Summer Glau showed how you can make it work: with class. Toward the middle of the run: end of season 1, beginning of 2, was the decent area. I actually began admiring this little tv show, but it didnt last. Great moments were when Cromartie takes out the swat at the pool, the mexico/cromartie one, and cameron goes nuts and tries to trick John into not taking her chip out. The Bad. This is a raw critique, to show the gold standard of the terminator franchise, and where this series stands. Warning: bluntness ahead. Here are the characters that totally destroy this tv show. - Jessie - There for sex appeal mainly, her character fits awkwardly. No vastly important reason for her to be sent back. Catherine Weaver - her character imo is cheapening the liquid metal concept. Unintentionally funny scenes, both action and dialogue. Way too undercover. - John Henry, a fearsome terminator playing with toys. This shouldnt have to be explained further. Its just corny. - Riley, pawn for some bizarre spy scheme against John that isnt ever clearly defined, or maybe it was just weak. Too sappy of a side story. Now beside the ones most people have already criticized about this show: burning entire terminator remains with ease, plastic surgery magic, The portable K'Nex time machine and travelling forward in time ala T2:3D, here are a few biggies: The Cumulative Effect- For a good while there was also that suburban family routine reminiscent of cheesy sitcoms. "What are they up to in the house this week? Stay tuned! Way too many terminators sent through time. Cameron wins 100% of the time, which is a farce, especially after 10 or so times. After a while, it begins to become a new farce adventure every week. EVERY tv show has this, shouldnt be surprising. This is why I never had hope that a TV format would EVER work for this High Quality franchise, which I'll get to later. Religious TerminatorThis one was glaring. Melodramatic metaphors of religion and doom, usually narrated by Lena Headey. One time hit over the head with a sledge hammer by the guy who plays Silberman, now a mad cackling super villain for some reason Judgment day is not the biblical apocalypse. Never was. Wrong Arnold franchise. That was End of Days. Terminator goes to therapyThe terminators and connors discussing with Psychologists on their big comfy couch was awkward to say the least. Especially the Redhead t-1000. Wow. Substitute teachers, CEO's, stealth circus clowns and whatnotUnits so undercover they live a totally awkward persons life, making for uniuntentionally humorous scenes, especially the ones that are recurring. The peeing kid and the stone cold T-1000 parent was just gold LOL. So youre married to a terminator and never knew it? Yeah right. This backfires, because then the victim becomes less IQ than a normal human, and the viewer doesnt care if they perish. After many nights of close heart to heart discussions with a machine, did she take him on Dr. Phil to fix their marriage before she realized he wasnt her husband? WOW. Budget vs presentationNow I know its not going to be movie worthy effects, but flawless visuals is a VITAL part of efficiently making a fiction illusion that will draw people in, and I never like to see the saga "without its makeup on" in this manner, so to speak. This is a reason why I feel movies are the only format that do justice to this legacy. There are too many cooks in the kitchen. Weve had 2 cooks so far with the movies (Cameron and Mostow), and we already see how that went. Nice attempt though. As the storylines and dialogue get odder, it works as some humorous entertainment ;D . Im personally not concerned with a Season 3, I think the SCC fans should focus on the upcoming FILMS and cross their fingers that the gold standard is restored. Thats what interests me the most.
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Post by Erika on Apr 27, 2009 19:22:20 GMT -5
If you want to complain about the Jesse/Riley storyline you have to take your complaints to where they belong - Fox Broadcasting. Before the season began Fox demanded that Josh and his company insert a "love interest" into the show for John, most likely w/ the hopes that would bring in younger female viewers.
They agreed (under fear of pissing off Fox) and even named Riley after the President of Fox.
The Jesse/Riley storyline had to be fit into the season which is ultimately why it all tied up and was ended.
Fox also demanded that they try to make the show less serialized and produce more stand alone eps. The writers really didn't have a choice and had to go for the "Terminator of the week" formula. When that backfired along w/ large fan backlash against Jesse/Riley Fox finally backed off and let Josh and his team do their thing. Cleaning up the crap that Fox forced them to insert into the series took time, but once they cleared all of that away you'll note the series took on a much better flow and towards the end of the season finally felt more like season 1. Luckily our writers were still able to drop bread crumbs that they were able to connect the dots towards the end of the season.
IF/when Fox gives us a third season they just need to keep their mitts out of the oven and let Josh and his team keep working on their own magic.
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Post by VALIANT CHAMPION on Apr 27, 2009 19:55:17 GMT -5
Watch the last episode of season 2 before you pass judgement on Catherine Weaver.
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Post by dn38416 on Apr 27, 2009 22:52:32 GMT -5
Watch the last episode of season 2 before you pass judgement on Catherine Weaver. Done. Just took a trip to HULU, and finished the 2 I was missing. Adam Raised a KaneA comeback of sorts. After several episodes of non events, the ball is rolling again. Makes you wonder if they had these ideas in mind all along or stalled until they found a direction. More tension, more rellevance to our main characters. Dereks events here... I like. The best areas are usually the season finales, no surprises there. Born to Run And here we go with the John Henry kid games again. More religion talk from Sarah in lockup, once again Cameron delivers, no surprise there, good job. That weird morph from the t-1000 ehhh, ANOTHER KNEX TDE once again, ala T2: 3D. Adam Raised Kane was better than the finale. Thats my final opinion. Overall, this series is more bearable than T3, but I really cant say which has broken more rules of style and canon. Its a give and take.
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Post by chrisimo on Apr 29, 2009 2:50:18 GMT -5
- John Henry, a fearsome terminator playing with toys. This shouldnt have to be explained further. Its just corny. John Henry is not a Terminator.
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